Hate for benchmade or spyderco

[Cliff Stamp]

You'd like them to not only produce the knives that you like, but you'd like them to stop producing the knives whose design philosophy you don't agree with?

Dark Op's extreme promotion caused many complaints because of the graphic nature. If you accept this is a reasonable reaction then you also have to accept that someone could have a different viewpoint of what is offensive. I have pacifist friends who would very much have a problem with knives like the Civilian and would not support a company that makes them and they would make similar comments as Brownshoe did in that regard.

There is a side issue of just letting people do what is offensive to you and ignoring them vs protesting, however if you actually want to support the other venues then there is a conflict. Locally for example there are people who protest the seal hunt but they want to support other activities but won't so long as the hunt continues so there are boycotts on fishery products.

It doesn't offend me that Spyderco makes the civilian, but it isn't difficult to imagine designs which pretty much anyone would have problems with and reasonable people have to realize that different people will get offended at different things and thus be free to each make their own decisions on what is tolerable and take actions accordingly.

What would be relevant here is to examine the criteria that Brownshoe outlined and see if it is applied consistently to other knife companies or does it show a bias just on Spyderco, are the same complaints made against other companies or are they openly praised while having similar issues. This is supposed to be a discussion forum about knives after all and not opinions on the individuals discussing them.

When people start degrading others, based on their collecting preference; that's when I have a problem.

Yes that is a problem :

... the brownshoe still remains as smelly as when I left. You've really got to grow up sooner or later, and learn a little damned respect.

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

Cliff - And your point is? I have no problem with brownshoe's collecting preferences. I don't even know what they are.

Brownshoe was downright disrespectful to Sal, who was nothing but nice and apologetic to him. Brownshoe needed a talking to.

 

[oldrifleman]

I had not been into this topic until now, but decided that I would put my cent and a half in. I am a BM type of guy, I like thumb studs, not holes, but that is a personal choice. Spyderco makes a great knife, not my style, but a well made and with an owner that seems to be stand up kind of guy. Brownshoe seems to feel that his choices are the way the world needs to be run, not going to happen. He needs to accept that companies are going to produce what the market requests, especially one whose market includes uniformed personnel. Everyone can voice their opinion, but someone being rude about it needs to be put in thier place. Steven

 

[Monocrom]

Ironically, I prefer thumbstuds over thumbholes as well. But about half of the thumbstud knives that I've liked have raised blisters or even peeled skin off my thumb! Has nothing to do with $$$ or quality either. The worst offender was an Al Mar Falcon. I've owned $15 folders from FURY that had better thumbstuds. Benchmade's thumbstubs are great though.

The only uncomfortable thumbhole opener that I've ever encountered was on a no-name el-cheapo. I find myself coming back to Spyderco for a number of reasons.... a comfortable blade-opener among them.

 

[Halfneck]

Monocrom, I agree with you on Al Mar's thumbstuds. My SERE 2000 is the culprit for me - the thumbstuds are almost sharpened points.

The only Benchmade thumbstuds I had a issue with were the ones on the Benchmade 690. They were too smooth and my thumb kept slipping on them.

 

[Monocrom]

Monocrom, I agree with you on Al Mar's thumbstuds. My SERE 2000 is the culprit for me - the thumbstuds are almost sharpened points.

That was the exact problem I had with the falcon! It almost seemed as if there were two cutting edges on the knife; the actual one, and the one on the thumbstud!

 

[TxTroubleMaker]

This is a very interesting thread, much like the Ford vs. Chevy, American League vs. National League, or Blonde vs. Brunet argument. The way I see it, cool is cool. Spyderco makes some pretty bitch'in knives as does Benchmade. In the last few weeks Spyderco has gotten quite a bit of my money, and I just got my first Axis Lock Benchmade, the first of many I think. I'm not going to keep myself from buying a cool blade because it has a spyder or a butterfly on it or vise versa. The only hate I have is for my credit card statement!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Brownshoe was downright disrespectful to Sal ...

Brownshoe gave his opinions on the knives, fairly negative, you then gave your opinion on Brownshoe, the latter is against the forum rules - something you agreed to when you signed up. The ironic part is that then you commented about personal degredation while engaging in it.

I don't agree with much of what Brownshoe noted, though there are several points of contention such as the expected performance of lockbacks in regards to play, as with most issues of construction there are makers on both sides of this issue. This doesn't mean I would make a personal commentary on Brownshoe as it is irrelevant.

It is Bladeforums after all, the discussion should be about the actual points he made about the knives. I'd like to see Spyderco offer more kitchen knives as well, but I don't expect them to do so if they can make more money with other knives, and similar with discontinuing blades which don't sell well that I happen to like.

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

I'll tell you what, Cliff. I'll promise to stop playing moderator if you promise to also. Sound good?

 

[STR]

I have not seen or experienced the same negative atmosphere from Spyderco as has been brought up by Brownshoe. I am also guilty of not reading all these posts so I can't comment on everything.

I will say this though.

Having taken my fair share of knives apart to get a look at how they are built to either rebuild them or repair them I can testify to the rock solid lock ups in Spydercos lock back folders, yes even the ones that give a little bit. Spyderco typically blows the competitors right out of the park for their locks when it comes to actual metal securing metal contact. I'd take a Spyderco with a lock that gives a little over some of the ones that don't from other companies any day of the week because I've seen the insides of what is out there in the hands of the public and know how little metal is actually supporting that blade on the competitions knives.

As for their liner locks. That isn't worth getting into. The liner locks and frame locks have issues and that is covered well in another thread here. They are typically the worst and weakest locks you'll find and that is the case no matter who made it.

Warranty repair: Spyderco is very forgiving here. More so than any other company I have dealt with. As a known 'independent repairman' in this industry I know that some of the work I do for forum members has been referred to me by someone within Spyderco. I've also recieved work from people on the inside of Ka-Bar and even from BenchMade as well as others on knives they no longer service or provide parts for. This is above and beyond service in my opinion for something that takes care of a customer that has grown attatched to a knife they own and wish to keep it only repaired instead of recieving a credit or current replacement. I guess some expect Spyderco to pull out old equipment and molds from the 80s and 90s everytime a knife they no longer make comes back for a repair.

Honestly Sal you have gone above and beyond once again here proving your worth. You can't please everyone though and I would say some customers are not worth trying to keep or to please. There are those that deserve to go elsewhere. I recommend Cold Steel to those types. Lynn Thompson and those of that ilke can get on quite well together and deserve each other. :jerkit:


If I have any kind of gripe with a company it is only with BM for mailing out small parts to guys to use in repairs for anything from a screw to a broken pocket clip but when it comes to Axis lock omega springs or anything else from the lock they flatly refuse to allow anyone else to touch it. In this way they force someone that has basically voided their warranty to have to pay for a repair but they have their reasons I guess. In this world we live in there are people out there that would simply ammass enough omega springs and part together to start making their own or fixing broken ones and selling them as new. But that is another story. Anyway, thats my two cents worth.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I can testify to the rock solid lock ups in Spydercos lock back folders, yes even the ones that give a little bit.

Play really bothers some people to the extent they will not use a knife based on it alone. The knife will give in your hand anyway when you use it, so the little play in a knife isn't functional. I have knives which are really sloppy as I have damaged the locks, you can actually hear them clacking if you just wiggle the wrist, still in use it makes no difference. The regular utility knives like Olfa have lots of vertical play, you can wiggle the knives around a huge amount compared to even sloppy lockbacks. Still people are free to make up their own standards for judgements and since there are knives which are really tight with play in both horizontal and vertical they are free to chose them and the aspects which give that property like the bushing in Sebenza's.

-Cliff

 

[Daniel Moore]

If I have any kind of gripe with a company it is only with BM for mailing out small parts to guys to use in repairs for anything from a screw to a broken pocket clip but when it comes to Axis lock omega springs or anything else from the lock they flatly refuse to allow anyone else to touch it. In this way they force someone that has basically voided their warranty to have to pay for a repair but they have their reasons I guess. In this world we live in there are people out there that would simply ammass enough omega springs and part together to start making their own or fixing broken ones and selling them as new. But that is another story. Anyway, thats my two cents worth.

Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure they're not hesitant on lock parts because they don't want people selling them- it's because it's a liability to have customers working on their knives "vital organs". A clip isn't going to cause someone's finger to be sliced off. I voided by Benchmade warranty, but I fully understand and respect their position and don't blame them for not wanting people to get hurt and then risk a lawsuit. Don't blame the company, just our society's warped views on responsibility.

 

[Monocrom]

To: STR -
Over the years, I've owned several Benchmade liner-locks. (This was back before the Axis-lock took over). Not one of them failed to perform reliably. I'm actually one of those who won't use a folder if it develops play. I'll put it away in a drawer, and forget about it. That's something I never had to do with any of my Benchmade liner-locks. I also liked the Benchmade Pinnacle so much, I bought 3 of them. When you have a nice, thick, bar that slides over to physically block the blade from closing; that's far from "weak." I used my Pinnacles the way most people would use a short fixed-blade. I still have all of my fingers, and the knives developed zero play.

I have noticed that some of the more recent Framelocks just aren't built right. The locks are far too easy to disengage. My first Pinnacle was also my first framelock. That lock was one stiff bastard! I had to hold the knife with one hand, and push the locking bar over with the other hand, just to close the blade. Nowadays you have framelocks where the bar just slides over, with the slightest bit of thumb contact! ...... Yes, being able to close your folder one-handed is a desireable feature; but not if it compromises the reliabilty of the lock.

 

[STR]

I don't blame BM. I believe I clarified that.


On your comments Cliff.

I agree. A little play will not affect the usability of the knife. Look at the Stanley knives. These blades even when locked in and with the handle screwed back down tight still move some but people use them for super tough jobs everyday without gripe or worry.

On a lock back with vertical give the blade moves up a bit when you push down on it sharply. This is not faulty. It happens a lot with all makes on occasion. Some are solid but usually the lock bar is moving upward as well as the blade. If you look close you can see it rise up. It goes only slightly and stops. Big deal.

Now one that is floppy lose that rattles when you shake the knife is faulty. That isn't what I'm talking about.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Now one that is floppy lose that rattles when you shake the knife is faulty. That isn't what I'm talking about.

This is one of the problematic points of contention, what does everyone mean by unacceptable play, or "a lot" or "significant" play. Like sharpness, most knife terms are not well accepted so it is easy to see how a maker/manufacturer could describe their knives one way and a user another because they are all using different definations. Based on what I have seen lockbacks don't have play issues from Spyderco, but users in general tend to have a really small sample base usually, unless they are collectors and it is easy to see where you could get a really poor opinion of you handled a few that were sub-optimal.

-Cliff

 

[gull wing]

I can't hate either one, but am peeved that BM doesn't make more "users".
I really like the Axis, but the RSK's are the only ones I consider useful to me.

 

[LJK]

Wow... but that Brownshoe can sure stir things up. I could not possibly disagree with him more, and he can be harsh, but I admire his passion for knives. I believe thats why we're all here.

 

[Ldyblade]

Certainly no hate here, though I am carrying a Spyderco today, it could easily be one of my bm's tomorrow.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Brownshoe,

I'll try to keep abreast, but much of what you say I simply do not agree with.

"1. Honoring past warranties: One example, I've got more, the Jot has a design flaw where the screws pull out of the micarta. You used to admit this and replace, now your warrantee department says Too Bad, and you could easily fix it if you had a competent cutler".

A screw pulling out of a handle is not a design flaw, it is a mfg flaw. The model is 10 years old. Did you buy it new? Are you complaining now about a 10 year old problem? I'm sure if we could have fixed it, we would have. We certainly have competient cutlers, we also mfr in Golden. I'm also sure we offered you an alternative. IMO, We honor our Warrantees at least as well as any knife company and better than most.

"2. Repairing knives: Do you stock repair parts for foriegn made knives?"

We do on current models and we save as many parts as we can on older models.

"3. Persian: Amazing someone with your background does know that Persia is a culture that shares a language and is part of Iran, Iraq, Afg, Russia and US. Talk to some Persians to find out if an upswept blade, very reminiscent of a butchers tool, has anything to do with persian culture".

There are many things that I know, certainly far more that I don't know. Thanx for the input.

Amazing that someone with your intelligence and articulation would be so close minded as to believe that their "opinion" would hold true for everyone.

"4. Marketing: Think my point was missed. Spyderco kitchen knvies are the best product out there. If you can't sell the best, then its got to be marketing or cost, and in the world of kitchen knives, spydercos are not expensive".

Much of what Spyderco makes is the "best product out there". That doesn't mean that the market wants it. We've been making our kitchen knives since 1981. Much marketing in many ways. Those that own and appreciate them really appreciate them, there's just not enough of them. We are in the process of re-looking at and restructuring our kitchen line. What is your compaint with our kitchen knives?

"5. 10% back: Just threw that in since I saw it recently in a business seminar. There are some companies that do put a specific percentage to community service...note all the company names on arenas, zoos exhibitions, etc. Its good advertising. Be nice if the Maddox could live through that kind of program. How about it".

Spyderco does more for "our community" than 90% of the companies in America. The Maddox is available through Maddox. We made that possible. I'm sorry, but this complaint is not worth my time.

"6. Loose lockbacs: So its normal right?"

It has been my experience that lockbacks do not self adjust like some other locks. In our testing, Spyderco lockbacks are among the best, if not the best in the market. They are certainly not "loose". some have a very small amount of tolerance. Please show me a production company that makes a more reliable, stronger lockback that you consider better, and the testing proof to verify your "opinion"..... or drop it.

"7. Lack of testing: Didn't poperly test CPM440v before use in a knife, by spydercos admission. Didn't fully test ZDP for corrosion before use in a knife by sypderco's admission. Why not wait and test out the steels to assure the wonder product makes a good knife?"

We test everything, in the lab and in the real world. ZDP is currently in "real world" test mode. The "Moran" was our "real world test" for VG-10. Show me a knife company that tests more. There was no reason to test corrosion resistance on ZDP. with 20% Chrome, we got a good idea of the performance in that area. It was the edge retention that we tested, because that is what the alloy was claiming.

"Mr. Glesser, maybe i am mistaken, but ibelieve you no longer own the company, so you have constraints. You are a consistent and skillful champion of your firm; however, please don't forget, a knife is a tool first and customer service is more than warranty fulfillment."

Yes, Mr. Brownshoe, you are mistaken...in this as well as many other of your comments. I am the man in charge. "The buck stops here". I have no "contraints". I am fully aware of what a knife is and what customer service is. I am fully aware that I work for the ELU. I am aslo fully aware that I cannot think of another customer that dislikes me/my firm more than you. I believe that there is more to your "point of view" than you are indicating, or you've just decided to "harbor a grudge" for 10 years. I began this discussion with an 'open hand" to bury the hatchet. It appears that you have not yet learned how to unclench your fist.

"As for me, in the recent past, I've generally keep my negative opinion of spyderco to myself, until the spyderco sycaphants get on my nerves as was this case in this thread".

It has not been my observation that you "generally keep your negative opinion to yourself". It has been your consistent long term negative opinion about Spyderco that has caused me to discuss this with you.

"Knives and companies can sometimes get fans that are a wee bit too rabid, so a different perspective can helpful. Maybe I should be more like the knife magazines and say nothing when something sucks or the truth is twisted and only write words of praise".

I am a fan of Mr. Toyoda and his company, Toyota. I am a fan of Honda, and Lotus and Casio. I am a fan of Dick Newick Trimarans. Is that wrong?

I think you should speak your truth, always. As should everyone here. I personally think that your "truth" is unusually negative towards Spyderco.

But I did and do engage in conversation with my customers, good or bad. I think If you wish to find good in me or my comapny, you will. If you "choose" not to, then you won't. I will take your suggestions to heart, as I do all suggestions, but I cannot say that I will change the philosophy of my company to suit your individual value syustem. I think Spyderco's values and philosophy are good, even if you do not.

sal

 

[brownshoe]

Mr. Glesser, As indicated before, the spyderco philosphy was what drew me to your company. The divergence from the philosophy is what i notice and comment upon.

Let me try one last time to clarify the warranty issue, the Jot's screws went into micarta as opposed to the steel liner. Myself and others had knives replaced by spyderco due to the problem and were told by spyderco warranty repair that it was a design flaw. SMKW advertised spyderco knives with this problem as "clip not meant to be removed." Clearly this is a design flaw. Since the change in warranty policy, the screws coming out of the micarta on a Jot has been denied compensation. This is a change in past policy. By the way, the Jot may be 10 years old, but I've seen two of them for sale new at MSRP. One in a hardware store and the other in a knife store. Both have the original packaging. One already suffered from another Jot manufacturing problem you noted earlier, the poor liner lock.

The same change in policy has been noticed by me and others with the older intergral endura and delica clips that used to be fixed for free and now no longer are. In addition, older spydercos were bought with the expectation that the tips would be reground for free; this is no longer done. I've had knives returned to me with a note indicating that the current service covered by my original contract with spyderco, would be no longer offered due to an upcoming change in spyderco policy. "We'll help you now, but in the future, sorry boy you're out of luck." These knives were bought by me and others with an original repair and warranty expectation, that spyderco no longer supports. The note from spyderco shows this was a corporate decision to no longer support the original consumer expectation.

I like your kitchen knives and deplore their removal from the catalog. Instead of marketing one of the best tools around, spyderco markets the Kris, a more martial product. This is a change in the company that used to not even list the civilian on-line.

When it comes to lockbacks, i agree spyderco makes a great product. My three lockbacks have no play, but I bought them before spyderco started indicating play was normal. Queen replaces/repairs their lockbacks if there is play. From the spyderco philosophy, what would one expect? You read the forums, this seems to be a common product complaint. There's a thread on the mannix right now and have been past threads on the native.