Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation

2 more videos, making it 3 too many :D

Thanks for watching & comments.

Whittle: oak, Lignum Vitae Argentine, pork rib bone
Light Chop: oak, Lignum Vitae Argentine

1095, 0.125" thick, 1.4" wide, 4.5" blade, FFG
CWF HT 67rc
30 degrees inclusive, 0.006-0.007" behind edge thick
Ebony Handle
[video=youtube_share;hTEiLVQ8kr4]http://youtu.be/hTEiLVQ8kr4[/video]

AEBL, 0.130" thick, 1" wide, 4" blade, FFG
CWF HT 65rc
Sharpened 30 inclusive degrees, 0.01-0.012" behind edge thick
Stone Hopea Burl Handle
[video=youtube_share;LNVMPWxpem4]http://youtu.be/LNVMPWxpem4[/video]
 
Out of curiosity I ran the re-hted 62rc 420hc Buck & 63rc 8Cr Enlan through the tests. 15 dps, 0.01" BET. Both failed on tap-chop Lignum Vitae step. I guess matrix probably has higher percentage of plate martensite than optimal. Biggest chip reached bevel shoulder (~0.01" thickness). Well, not bad for ht those steels the first time. With my new ht params, both steels peak hrc will be about 1rc lower but much tougher (should pass the tests). Oh well, that is for a next time, whenever that be...

Chris "Anagarika";16596187 said:
Hi Luong,
...
Any chance offering re HT folder blades? I can send you some 8Cr blades ;) to do and relabeled them as BCMW CWF RHT (what a long acronym) :D.
 
I'm going to download & watch .. thanks for the video.

No rush for the re-HT. Perhaps more productive making real BCMW CWF.
Looks like some buyers are waiting ;).
 
Sorry .. double posted.

Well, watched the videos. Impressive! Are those going to be on 'for sale' section soon?
 
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Chris "Anagarika";16598997 said:
Sorry .. double posted.

Well, watched the videos. Impressive! Are those going to be on 'for sale' section soon?

Hear Hear, the question I dare not ask, but now you did... my BCMW CWF CTS XHP needs a buddy, or 2.... All I know is at any given time Luong is as busy as 3 normal Men, I wonder if he sleeps?

Russ
 
Just picked up a "buddy" for my k390. New one is 10v - close cousins? Maybe step brother?
I did pass on the 10v at 68rc - will have to settle for 67rc...:D
 
I am still digesting, probably need to watch it 10 more times.

Prof Bhadeshia :thumbup:

20161028: Interfaces and Orientation Relations (2016) - lecture 8
[video=youtube_share;PEoPSC1TS_o]http://youtu.be/PEoPSC1TS_o[/video]
 
CWF HT aeb-l (as an example) - Step 0 to 7

s0: aust blade at 1950-1975F for 10 minutes

s1: quench blade to 450-465F oil bath, slice around for 10 seconds, then stir around for 1 minutes

s2: Cover the oil bath with a lid or aluminum foil.

s3: 1 hr later - remove lid/cover.

s4: When oil temperature falls below 200-180F (take around 2-3 hrs depend on oil volume), air cool the blade to near room temp (~70-90F)

s5: Wash/clean blade. Straightening if needed and easy because the blade is still highly ductile(very high RA%) at this point

s6: Cryo (subzero should be ok for many steels) for 3-4 minutes, take out, wash

s7: Soak blade in 275F oil for 5 minutes. Take out & wash.
Done.


So this is the HT. Here is another HT posted on another forum by Rob Thomas:

Properly heat treated this steel is great! It cuts very well. It has good contrast and is easy to etch. I know many knife makers who prefer to work with this steel! This is how we heat treat our stainless steel Damascus when the layers are AEB-L and 301.

HEAT TREATING:
Preheat furnace to Austenizing temperature
Place blade in furnace​
Allow furnace to cycle back to Austenizing temperature
Soak for 15 minutes
Quench in oil
Temper 2 times for 1 hour each time
Quench in liquid nitrogen for 4 hours and re-temper 1 time

HEAT TREATING TEMPERATURE

MATERIAL AUSTENIZING TEMPER
Stainless 1925F 350F


So aside from being slightly different from someone elses HT, where is the crystal weaving function of this HT. I don't see this being anything wildly different. Just wondering
 
Differences:

1. quench to ~Ms. (call it marquench if you like)

2. 1F per minute uniform continuous cooling (thus hot oil bath). I called this - Weaving.

3. get peak hardness by 275F activation temperature. IF temper directly to 350F, peak hardness wouldn't materialize and blade would be much softer than activated+cool-to-room, then temper

Or maybe no diff, it's just mumbo jumbo.

So this is the HT. Here is another HT posted on another forum by Rob Thomas:

So aside from being slightly different from someone elses HT, where is the crystal weaving function of this HT. I don't see this being anything wildly different. Just wondering
 
Differences:

1. quench to ~Ms. (call it marquench if you like)

2. 1F per minute uniform continuous cooling (thus hot oil bath). I called this - Weaving.

3. get peak hardness by 275F activation temperature. IF temper directly to 350F, peak hardness wouldn't materialize and blade would be much softer than activated+cool-to-room, then temper

Or maybe no diff, it's just mumbo jumbo.

Well, I certainly think you are doing something right. It is your terminology of your HT and I like the sound of it. Regardless of the end results, which I hope are successful when compared to other HT's of the same steels. You HT looks promising and I think you need to have others actually compare your HT to other HT's, not by you claiming you did it, but by others who have no stake in your success testing it.

The HT I added above I think is the std HT for AEB-L. The following HT is the one Roman Landes recommends for AEB-L. Looks like he tweaked it as well.

Landes has described his heat treating procedure for 13C26 :

Furnace: Vacuum, protective gas, or salt bath
Preheat 1: 450-600°C equalize 3-5 min
Preheat 2: 850-950°C equalize 3-5 min
Austenize: 1065°C eqalize 3-5min, hold 5min
Quench: oil preheat to 60°-80°C;N2 4bar
Cryo 1: immediately after quench min. -70°C or lower, hold 1h
Temper1: 150°C for 1h, then quench in Water
Cryo 2: immediately after quench min. -70°C or lower, hold 1h
Temper 2: 150°-180°C for 1h, then quench in Water
- Roman Landes
 
Well, I certainly think you are doing something right. It is your terminology of your HT and I like the sound of it. Regardless of the end results, which I hope are successful when compared to other HT's of the same steels. You HT looks promising and I think you need to have others actually compare your HT to other HT's, not by you claiming you did it, but by others who have no stake in your success testing it.

The HT I added above I think is the std HT for AEB-L. The following HT is the one Roman Landes recommends for AEB-L. Looks like he tweaked it as well.

I think nathan carothers tested a 3V blade at 65? RC and said it was good to go. Several others have stated his knives are legitimate. With aebl, I don't know.
 
There are a few 64rc aebl cwf ht-ed in use by people... Only received private feedbacks. Yup, trees fell in forest... Current, I am making & testing these
ganXjyt.jpg
 
I have one of those "CWF" AEB-L knives. It is currently my wife's primary kitchen blade, though it is a "hunter" design. She appreciates the length, thinness, corrosion resistance (a 'must' for her), and also how sharp it stays.

Here are some photos and comparison shots next to a couple other AEB-L blades HT'd by Peters for Tim Johnson (-timos) of blackstone K&T:

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kTRdqucvaM_-3IH-_TpvJmg9x6KznL7bWrY0oGGijG9zwI-3hdgKze3H5u6KBGkcNokYotEjpg=w881-h1173-no


A couple of recent observations:

The CWF blade holds its edge MUCH longer in use than the standard HT blades. It also sharpens on my ceramic rods and diamond hones without forming a noticeable burr, very clean apex. Testing the edge today, however, I noticed a few spots would snag slicing phonebook paper, while the rest were whisper smooth ...

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phNG58Fo_x8L7Lln-_wQPVC8gGQ55ZXF7xY5e8iiAWJT4lLkU4GHg-yalnP45xbMzQDLh0kvfkLahg=w1920-h1200-no


Those nicks were snagging. It is hard to know what specific treatment caused the damage, as the knife has been used frequently in the kitchen for all manner of tasks, from de-boning a venison roast to slicing bread. It is possible that it hit against a ceramic dish at some point, as they are common and those using the knife (which includes my in-laws when they visit) are not always very cautious. *shrug* What i found interesting is that the rest of the apex seems almost unused :thumbup:

In comparison, here is the apex of each of those other knives (which I love, btw):

The little one:
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The longer one:
Eq23o1vGR5IwY6HkaGtu9bZNKAqBxAmMLrmEIbPWJXQm3xauvoVl3TIQPKfIRiJ3vVHO2oWJEUCbfg=w1920-h1200-no


Each of these blades has a very thin edge, <0.010". The smaller one was recently used to butcher a couple of deer, wherein it performed admirably. When testing the edge this morning, it cut noisily through the phonebook paper, snagging the whole way - still very sharp, but much degraded from use. The second knife, which was previously used by my wife and others in the same role as the CWF blade was similarly degraded. Neither showed any sign of larger chips, and each will be given a polished microbevel. Experience has shown that they require slightly more care when sharpening to remove the slight but noticeable formation of a burr.

Now I have not done a direct head-to-head comparison of these knives beyond just casual observation as above, but my impression is that the softer standard-HT blades may be slightly more resilient in hard impacts - neither has ever evinced even the tiny chips seen in the CWF blade - but they are also less capable of maintaining that whisper-sharp apex through continual use, they need to be resharpened more often as the edge degrades. By the way, that little blade is the one tested by Jim Ankerson in his edge-retention thread here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Again, I am not sure what caused the little tiny chips in the CWF blade, but I will restore the edge and see what comes in the following months. If no more chips appear during "normal" operations in our kitchen, then I will try to cause them incidentally. While there are none as large along the edge of the standard HT blades, there seem to be MANY more much tinier chips/tears along the entire length of each. Both of those are, by the way, superior in performance to the Wusthof knives previous employed in our little kitchen. As good as Wusthof products may be, their X50CrMoV15 steel at 58Rc degraded noticeably quicker than the 60Rc AEB-L, exhibiting larger areas of chips and folds.

I do hope others are seizing the chance to try out the CWF protocol of at least knives from bluntcut that feature it.

On another note, bluntcut makes some really pretty knives :) Here is actually my favorite made by him - featuring an M2-steel blade that was part of his "super-quench" R&D and featured in a pass-around awhile back. It has a few stains from not-quite optimal care on my part, but is a joy to use. It makes you want to spend more time in the kitchen with it ;) I may take it to my hobby shop as a leather-cutting knife as well.

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c9KvFiQ3A23UPnVBIYmKmW6YA2yM5oVDbKLciReoNZMOUeejACE6jQ1aQa-qz_iLOTGdLlLfx0bz-Q=w1920-h1200-no

dNFHbtTCyB_Zjig2TzdhnGCmXGprAgvbKOd1mTNA7o5ii5rXP3Mt9JvqOQ_R5Z8a8lp8KCE7e3xRxg=w1920-h1200-no

vM_kSPmxNTli1aGj3F11CFa4PXBmusWVbGqM8NTx8_2G5rQmPb7d3ADW4LJGgq15YsyBVYNY3HVCVQ=w1920-h1200-no
 
Oh hey, thanks for a nice write up, Chiral!

High hardness 63+rc edges (std & cwf ht) usually don't respond well to ceramic rod sharpening because micro/macro bents & ripples would break off (chip) if try to burnish/laterally-push back the other way. So basically akin to apex impacts (very high psi) by a rod. Softer (highly ductile) edge will plastics/bend_back_forth, which conducive to rod technique. Your 64rc aebl sure look like chipped from rod sharpening. Also currently there are a few bents/ripples - please sharpen (cut-off the deviated parts) those out with flat stones. I mentioned (a few times by now) in my videos - my cwf ht high hrc edge will micro bend only one-way, can't bend back without breaking that part off.

It's much easier to soften a blade than reverse... Just wrap a handle with cold rag and stick blade into 350F hot oil for 20 seconds => probably lower hardness by 2rc, so now the blade has more ductility but at lower strength.
 
Oh hey, thanks for a nice write up, Chiral!

High hardness 63+rc edges (std & cwf ht) usually don't respond well to ceramic rod sharpening because micro/macro bents & ripples would break off (chip) if try to burnish/laterally-push back the other way. So basically akin to apex impacts (very high psi) by a rod. Softer (highly ductile) edge will plastics/bend_back_forth, which conducive to rod technique. Your 64rc aebl sure look like chipped from rod sharpening. Also currently there are a few bents/ripples - please sharpen (cut-off the deviated parts) those out with flat stones. I mentioned (a few times by now) in my videos - my cwf ht high hrc edge will micro bend only one-way, can't bend back without breaking that part off.

Thank you for this advice! I will proceed with only flat hones on this blade. :thumbup:
 
Ohh I see. Very interesting. I think Chiral's observations really makes light of this thread or subject I should say.

Actually, I think this whole thread is explained pretty well here on page 20. Why didn't you just say that? Heh kidding good stuff.
 
BluntCut MetalWorks heat treated steels attributes (referenced context below) are based on my Crystal Weaving Foundation(CWF). CFW has graduated into a small contribution to science. It will open a door to go outside of the current industry ht box/room - a broad area and depth to be explored by all of you.

Science Freedom - details of CFW 'how' & 'why' are to be widely presented and it should be easily replicated & applied. Applicability will stretch across the entire steel industry, where cutlery/edge-tool is a small sector in it. 'How' will be a general ht formula, and 'why' if you would like to understand chemistry & physics aspects/science of it.

This post (across multiple forums) declared my intention. I haven't shoot the 'how' video nor write up yet, so welcome to suggest better format etc..

Best regards,
==Luong

*** Hardness/strength 2+rc exceeded mfg's max rc is just an easy quantifier - other attributes are also important ***

BCMW 20160702 ht results

CPM-M4 69rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteelC-M4.htm
Elmax 65rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictures/Info/Steel/Elmax-Typical.gif
S110V 65.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictures/Info/Steel/CPMS110V-DS.pdf
CTS-XHP 67.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteelS-CTSXHP.htm
CPM 10V 69.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteelC-A11.htm

29 minutes video - sorry, 2nd is fuzzy due to over heated camera
Whittled: oak, bamboo, lignum vitae argentine (LVA) and thin metal tube (at end of fuzzy video)
Chopped: oak, LVA

https://youtu.be/b21Rg8D97Ig

Edges after whittled thin metal tube (in video)
sfHaPSx.jpg


BCMW 20160615 66+rc W2 chop test at cryogenic(LN2) temperature - ** as stated - it's more than just hardness/strength ***
https://youtu.be/5-mVEp7BiLo

Em chào anh !

Em là Quân &#7903; Vi&#7879;t Nam tr&#432;&#7899;c c&#361;ng t&#7915;ng tham gia tr&#7841;i lính cùng anh. Anh &#7841; anh &#273;ã th&#7917; mác CPM 4V ch&#432;a &#7841; ?, em &#273;ang v&#432;&#7899;ng m&#7855;c v&#7899;i món CPM 4V v&#7873; cách nhi&#7879;t luy&#7879;n, anh có th&#7875; trao &#273;&#7893;i cùng em chút &#273;&#432;&#7907;c không &#7841;.

Em xin c&#7843;m &#417;n Anh tr&#432;&#7899;c &#7841; !
Mong h&#7891;i âm c&#7911;a Anh.
 
Chiral,

Thank you for the write up. I have some BCMW SQ blades & love them. Your write up is much better than what I can come up with, along with the one bodog did sometime back.

:thumbup:
 
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