Help me MAKE a fixed blade... please?

timcsaw

timcsaw

Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
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I became hooked on this site a year or so ago, and have been "building" knives ever since. Note I said "building"... I just can't say I've "made" a knife until I turn a piece of flat-stock into a completed knife...

My knife "builds" are available in the "Visitor Messages" section of my profile for anyone who wishes to see them.

I need to build a knife from scratch... I have a design (similar to a "Ringed Razel") ... I think I have the tools... and I hope I have the patience.

What I don't have is the steel... or the knowledge or ability to do any fancy heat treatments. I've considered using an old file but I'd rather start with a piece of flat stock.

What type of steel should I buy, that I can heat treat myself, using charcoal? I've watched a couple of YouTube videos which show a guy annealing (an old file) in a bon-fire... then hardening and tempering it in a charcoal "forge" with a bellows system. This is how I'd like do it myself.

Now I know, that certain steels require some critical temps, times, etc., for proper heat treat, so I'd have to avoid them... and I know, that I probably won't get the best heat treat with my "cobb-job" torch and charcoal setup, but I'd like to give it a try... I want to do it ALL.

I have a local source that can get me the steel (I think), but I don't know what type to get that I can heat treat in the way I've described. A stainless would be nice (oooh... shiny!) but I don't think I can do the heat treat??

I expect this to be a learning project... and who better to ask for help than the experts... YOU all.

I'm tired of being a "knife assembler".... I want to be able to say "I MADE that knife" from start to finish.

What kind of steel guys?:confused:
 
You want 1075/1080, or 1084.

O1 will work fine, but costs about 5x. (Edit: just had a quick look at Admiral Steel... make that about 10x) Lots more expensive, not a lot more better. Not without precise heat treatment, that is.

Other carbon steels will do you fine, too (1095, 5160), but for charcoal heat treatment, you'll get BOTH the most bang AND the most bang for your buck with 1075/1080 or 1084.

You're right, by the way, about not being able to do stainless steels. Also won't be able to do high alloy tool steels like A2 or D2. They take high temps, high precisions, and long times in the heat.

1075/1080 or 1084. :thumbup:
 
I've gathered from lots of reading that steels like 5160, 1065, 1080 tend to be good choices for heat treating in a forge. If you want stainless, you will need to look into sending it out for HT.

Here's the tutorial I followed to make my first knife:

http://www.hossom.com/tutorial/jonesy/

Google 'Tim Lively' to find an easy to build charcoal forge, and also check out the newbie stickies at the top of the forum for lots more reading.

Good luck!
 
Thank you all for the fine suggestions and help...

I'll probably go with a simple 1075/1080 or 1084 first and see how it goes. A cpm 154 stainless isn't out of the question, but I'd like to do a heat treat myself first... then perhaps a stainless would be a second project.

The ultimate for me, will be when I get proficient enough to dare buy a piece of Damascus and try it... from what I read, Damascus is a whole other world.

After that... it's on to folders from scratch! (hope I live this long;))
 
My first blades were CPM 154, treated by Texas Knife Supply. I chose this route because I wanted a kitchen knife (stainless preferred), and I didn't want to screw up 20 hours of filing and sanding with a bad heat-treat. It worked well for me, and the knives turned out great.

I have also done one damascus stock-removal project (my second knife, actually). The steel and heat-treat were by Delbert Ealy. I highly recommend him, as he can help answer questions along the way. Damascus isn't too different from a grinding standpoint, but the fact that you have to etch before assembly puts extra value on a precision fit.

Phillip
 
You have a great attitude and a willingness to learn.

That is half of it.

Enjoyment is the other half.

Fred
 
I also suggest the 1084. You can get it from Kelly Cupples. Great guy to deal with too!

For damascus, you can use a mix of 1084 and 15N20. Similar heat treat to 1084. Both the 1084 and the damascus can be heat treated successfully with your charcoal forge idea. I've found that 1084 is the best steel for a beginner to use. I still use 1080 and 1084 and the damascus combination mentioned on a lot of my knives. I also use 5160 and 52100.

You won't regret making the blades yourself. Good luck and you definitely have a great attitude.
 
Thank you Fred.Rowe, scottickes, and all others for your suggestions and kind words of encouragement!

Yesterday, I talked to "my steel guy:D" here and asked him to price me a piece of 1084 (annealed) or 1075/1080 of the proper size for my project. Depending on price and delivery time, I hope to have it fairly soon. Additionally, "my steel guy's" shop has a CNC Plasma machine, so hopefully I can provide him with my design drawing and save myself some time and effort.

I'll be posting pics as I progress, and I expect I'll also be asking for additional advice/information here... It's comforting to know that you experts are willing, and waiting in the wings to offer comments, information and acvice... I really do appreciate it!

I'm very excited to be able to soon say "I MADE this knife from scratch... with a lot of help from the good people on Blade Forums."
 
You can come down here for assistance.:D Did you see that I am having a Hammer-In on April 18th????
Will also be having classes starting in the spring. Forging, making Damascus, grinding and etc.
 
You made a good choice for steel. I was looking at your work in your profile, and you have some good looking assemblies so far. You skills in inlaying and wood working will help you out a great deal.

Heat treatment for 108X steel is pretty much as basic as it can get. You'll want to normalize first by bringing the steel up to non-magnetic and then letting it cool in still air to room temperature. This helps to remove any stresses intrinsic in the steel or that were induced by your shaping process.

To harden, you need to bring the steel up to non-magnetic, and then quench it in an appropriate oil (Park's #50 is the appropriate oil for this steel, but I doubt you've any on hand. Vet-grade mineral oil heated a bit to around 120-130 has been recommended by several here, and seems to work acceptably for 1080 steels). You have to be careful not to overheat the steel too much beyond non-magnetic. You've got to closely watch it in the fire, as it can quickly overheat. If you're not sure about how hot it got, you need to normalize again and start over. Check it frequently with a long-reach magnet and once it's non-magnetic, pull it out and quench it. Careful about the tip as well, as it will heat up more quickly than the body. Try to get a nice even temperature/color. Quench smoothly and straight either tip first or edge first, depending on your tank orientation. Once the blade is fully submerged, move it steadily in the oil either in the tip-butt direction or in the spine-edge direction (just not side to side). Let the blade cool all the way to the oil temperature. There are a number of variations you can do with the quench including edge quenching and clay quenching, but a full blade quench is a good way to go with a first knife. You can experiment with clays and edge quenches later on.

The blade will have some decarb on it from the heat treating process, and that can be removed after you temper the knife. Heat your household oven to 400 degrees (use a cheap kitchen in-oven thermometer to check your thermostat on the oven), place the knife in the oven for one hour, let it air cool to room temperature, and repeat this two more times. For a larger knife or a really heavy user that will see chopping or other hard forces, it may be a good idea to draw back the handle and spine of the knife a bit (soften it beyond the 400 temper you've done) with a torch. You can keep the edge in a large bucket of water, then use a torch at the end of the handle to heat the steel beyond a purple oxidation color. Walk the heat up the handle and to around the first 1/2 of the spine of the blade. Careful not to let the heat bleed too close to the edge area. Don't get it glowing, but get it beyond 600+ or so. That will leave a slightly softer temper in the handle and spine for a slightly better shock resistance. It won't really make a difference in most normal size and small knives.

Now you have yourself a fully heat treated knife. Careful not to overheat the knife beyond 400 when doing your finishing work (easy to do at the tip with a grinder if your pushing hard), or you'll ruin your temper. It will take some elbow grease to remove the decarb and any scratches that are left. Make sure you get the deep scratches out from filing or grinding prior to heat treating. Sometimes a low grit belt will make some really deep scratches that are a bear to remove by hand. Getting your finish as even as possible will really help.

I know this a rambling post, and there are other makers more seasoned than I in working with 1084, but this should get you in the ball park. Good luck, and have fun! And, of course, post the results here.

--nathan
 
What works for me with decarb/scale problem, is to dip it into my quench oil before I heat it in the forge(propane) basicaly a layer of carbon/soot is coated to the blade.... and is easy to remove after. That and I layer the bottom of my forge with crushed charcoal...
 
Tim , my arms hurt , my feet hurt , my fingers have blisters ya they hurt, my neck really hurts and my back is killin me.I just finished a filleting knife made of 440c its softer than 154cm or cpm154 thats hard crap [WHERE I GOT THE BLISTERS] I have a small belt sander several grinders and a disc grinder to small for anything. This was my 6 th blade ready for heat treat. Did i mention the nose bleed ya well im f _ _ kn cranky too.Listen to these guys do somthin easy. I need a good saw to cut that is my next purchase metal cutting band saw . All i can say is im just staring to have fun. have a nice day.Kellyw ps I AINT NO QUITER
 
Unfortunately, my local "steel guy" couldn't do much for me... all he could get me was some 1075/1074 at 3/16 X 8" X 12" at a cost of $65... seemed kind of expensive, especially since it wasn't really what I'd asked for anyway.

So I'm shopping around for a source for some 1084 that I can heat treat as I've described previously. I see some sources in the "Makers for sale area", and I have a couple of others I'll be looking into.

I may end up going the "old file" route after all. I was looking at some of the knives made by Michael Morris using old files and was quite impressed with how they can turn out.
 
timcsaw said:
...I may end up going the "old file" route after all. I was looking at some of the knives made by Michael Morris using old files and was quite impressed with how they can turn out.
Click to expand...

As long as you don't mind the extra work and not starting from a perfectly flat and straight stock... you can look for some old leaf spring from used cars. It should be something like 5160. You will probably be able to get them for just a few bucks. You won't be able to choose the thickness but as long as you don't go thicker than 5mm you should be ok.

The knives I have made so far all started as a bent piece of leaf spring, ground with hand tools, heat treated with a coal forge and polished by hand. Handle slabs are home made micarta. If you look for my previous post in this very same subforum, you will find how I made them. Just a few thumbnails to show you what I am talking about:

Some of them are not finished yet (like the blanks you see there and the red handled ones) but will be soon.
Feel free to ask any question. We will try to help you out.
Mikel
 
Mikel_24 said:
As long as you don't mind the extra work and not starting from a perfectly flat and straight stock... you can look for some old leaf spring from used cars. It should be something like 5160. You will probably be able to get them for just a few bucks. You won't be able to choose the thickness but as long as you don't go thicker than 5mm you should be ok.

The knives I have made so far all started as a bent piece of leaf spring, ground with hand tools, heat treated with a coal forge and polished by hand. Handle slabs are home made micarta. If you look for my previous post in this very same subforum, you will find how I made them. Just a few thumbnails to show you what I am talking about:

Some of them are not finished yet (like the blanks you see there and the red handled ones) but will be soon.
Feel free to ask any question. We will try to help you out.
Mikel
Click to expand...

Very nice work Mikel... and I appreciate the idea's and help.

I have a couple of places I'm going to check out for some leaf springs... also some harrow/disc blades.

I have a couple of old grass and bush scythe blades around here somewhere... probably would be a good steel, but I'm pretty sure the Grass blade is to thin... the bush blade might be something usable though.

The hunt continues!

Thanks again.
 
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