Help me MAKE a fixed blade... please?

JasonSCarter · May 15, 2009

I'm sorry man,:thumbup: been busy on a few projects and I didnt check back on this one..

Ok didnt know you were doing this in a bonfire... Way to go GreenPete on it!

if you let it cool overnight in the ashes it should be soft enough to play with. That is annealling or softening the metal. normalizing is where you stress relieve the steel by taking the metal in to "solution" and then letting it cool back down slowly and evenly to just let the chromium, iron, and carbon and whatever relax. You've probably figured out by now and shaped it. So yes take it back up to nonmagnetic. and then let air cool. do this 2x on the third time plunge into your mineral oil.

BIG HONKIN ZOMGWTFTBBQ FOOTNOTE!

If you've over heated your steel, you need to try to figure out how over heated it got. was it the color of the noonday sun (no joke I've done this

:foot:

) and have huge showers of sparks flying off it like a 4th of July sparkler? If so Congratulations! you've made a knife shaped paperweight. If it was close to yellow and few sparks flying off then thats a lil above welding temp and that can be fixed (wheew!) in the 2-3 normalization processes before the quench.

Jason

Solution = As I understand it the iron, and chrome carbides are melting into the rest of the iron matrix and evenly distributing the carbon, chrome, manganese, whatever. Metalurgist feel free to correct me.

timcsaw · May 15, 2009

JasonSCarter said:
I'm sorry man,:thumbup: been busy on a few projects and I didnt check back on this one..

Not a problem sir...

JasonSCarter said:
Ok didnt know you were doing this in a bonfire... Way to go GreenPete on it! if you let it cool overnight in the ashes it should be soft enough to play with. That is annealling or softening the metal. normalizing is where you stress relieve the steel by taking the metal in to "solution" and then letting it cool back down slowly and evenly to just let the chromium, iron, and carbon and whatever relax. You've probably figured out by now and shaped it. So yes take it back up to nonmagnetic. and then let air cool. do this 2x on the third time plunge into your mineral oil.

When I fired in in the bonfire ala Green Pete:thumbup:, it got yellow hot, and I pulled it out to pound it flat on my anvil (as it was a bent piece of leaf spring). After I'd flattened it, I put it immediately back into the fire and back to a yellowish color (when my magnet wouldn't stick to it), and then buried it in coals and ashes off to the side of the fire. It was still warm to the touch the next day, but not hot.

Sounds like I am ready to cut out and shape the blade.

After it's close to "finished", I'll go back into the fire two more times (heat to magnetic, then let cool over night), and do the quench after the last heat.

Then into the oven as you've recommended.

JasonSCarter said:
BIG HONKIN ZOMGWTFTBBQ FOOTNOTE!

JasonSCarter said:
If you've over heated your steel, you need to try to figure out how over heated it got. was it the color of the noonday sun (no joke I've done this:foot:) and have huge showers of sparks flying off it like a 4th of July sparkler? If so Congratulations! you've made a knife shaped paperweight. If it was close to yellow and few sparks flying off then thats a lil above welding temp and that can be fixed (wheew!) in the 2-3 normalization processes before the quench.

Jason

Solution = As I understand it the iron, and chrome carbides are melting into the rest of the iron matrix and evenly distributing the carbon, chrome, manganese, whatever. Metalurgist feel free to correct me.

I don't think I took it WAY to hot (yellowish to mild orange). I tried to keep an eye on it's magnetic and pulled it out as soon as my magnet wouldn't stick (or there abouts).

As I haven't started cutting it yet, I'm not sure what I'll see for sparks. Oh... unless you are saying I'd have seen the sparks coming from it as I took it in/out of the fire?

Thanky again, Jason. I will post pics and keep you apprised of my progress. This stuff is GREAT fun!

JasonSCarter · May 15, 2009

If it didnt look like a sparkler than your good to go. dont be afraid to let it soak at non magnetic for 5-10 minutes, it allows the carbides to get into solution. Here is a little homework for ya, from our own Ed Caffrey's website. How he treats 5160 in his performance tests.

http://www.caffreyknives.net/journeymanarticle.html

JasonSCarter · May 15, 2009

timcsaw said:
"Sounds like I am ready to cut out and shape the blade."

Yep you sure are!

timcsaw said:
"After it's close to "finished", I'll go back into the fire two more times (heat to magnetic, then let cool over night), and do the quench after the last heat."

Do not let cool over night, just let air cool completely, then back into the fire!
each time go slightly less red. This refines the grain structure, kinda like settling the atoms.

timcsaw said:
"Then into the oven as you've recommended."

For 2 cycles of 2 hours each.

timcsaw said:
"This stuff is GREAT fun!"

Ridiculasly Fun!:thumbup:

Jason

timcsaw · May 21, 2009

I've finally gotten around to cutting out the blanks for two knives. The small Bowie is going to be based on a design by Thomas Rucker, and the other is pretty clearly based on a Graham Knives/CRKT Ringed Razel.

Is it cool that I am using these guys designs as a starting point for my blades? Last thing I want to do is to step on someone's toes.

dlfleetw · May 21, 2009

Great start, now to start on the bevels.

As far as other people designs, you are going to be hard pressed to find something that has not been done yet. So go for it with what you've got.

JasonSCarter · May 23, 2009

They look great! Yea nobody will care unless you start production on them.

How are they coming along?

Jason

timcsaw · May 23, 2009

JasonSCarter said:
They look great! Yea nobody will care unless you start production on them.

How are they coming along?

Jason

Getting there... I'm still grinding them out flat and adjusting the profile a bit here and there.

In the process of grinding them flat on the sides, I can see where I was pounding on them with my hammer to take the bow out of the leaf spring... it's quite noticeable in the picture of the top blade... near the spine, about half way, you can see an "impact crater" from the hammer.

The stock I started with is about 1/4 in. so these are going to be some thick blades. I may get creative and do some "thinning" ... not sure.

Once I've gotten them ground relatively flat, I think (as I study) that my next step will be the "plunge cuts"? If I understand this step, it's the creation of an angle grind, right at the front of the ricasso, which establishes the starting point for the entire blade grind. It establishes a "shoulder" sort of, that I'll try to match as I create the grind angle on the entire blade.

As this stuff is 1/4, I've used a drill 7/32 or 15/64 drill bit (don't recall), to scribe two "center lines" down the length of the blade edge as a guide... essentially showing me the blade edge in between the two lines.

I still haven't quite decided on how I'll grind these... a hollow grind would be great, but it's probably beyond my knowledge/ability so I expect to do a flat grind to be safe.

While grinding these flat, I find the "divots" created by the hammer to be interesting. I'm thinking about putting the curved blade back into the fire again, and then tapping the blade all over with a ball peen to create a well... "pounded look" to the blade. Then I can finalize the grind.

I don't suppose it will hurt to re-fire the steel to non-magnetic again to "peen" it up a bit on both sides. It'll go into the fire to non-magnetic, peen, back into the fire until non-magnetic, and peen the other side. After that, an overnight cool in a bucket of sand. This sound okay to you?

I'll post pictures as I progress.

Thanks for the input!

ON EDIT: I sent an Email to Josh Graham to check with him about building my own "Razel-ish" copy and he said ":thumbup:Let us see it when you get it done:thumbup:". I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

James_Terrio · May 23, 2009

timcsaw said:
ON EDIT: I sent an Email to Josh Graham to check with him about building my own "Razel-ish" copy and he said ":thumbup:Let us see it when you get it done:thumbup:". I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Well done. Design influence can be a tricky thing... imagine if Bob Loveless got a royalty on every drop-point hunter that's been made in the last 40 years!

As another poster said, it's pretty near impossible to design a truly "new" knife that's actually useful. Even so, with a specific design that a certain maker or company is known for, it's wise to credit them, or even ask their blessings as you did.

As long as you don't run around claiming you invented it, I don't think anyone will be too upset. The knife world seems to run largely on the honor system, and folks like you who "borrow" ideas but give credit where it's due don't seem to have troubles.

JasonSCarter · May 25, 2009

Wont hurt it at all to re heat it but why? a ball peen will put divits in it right now.
you can see how to hollow grind here... http://jtcustomknives.com/videos.htm
Very Cool on checking with the designer, I'm sure it was appreciated!

Jason

timcsaw · May 29, 2009

Updated progress pictures.

I've had a chance to try my hand at a bit of grinding. All I have for tools to do this are a 4X36 belt/disk sander, a 1X42 belt/disk sander, and a 6 inch standard bench grinder with two wheels. All of the work so far has been done on the Sears 4X36 belt and the bench grinder.

Doing the grinds is a lot harder than I thought it would be. In hindsight, I probably should have started off with some flat grinds instead of doing hollow grinds... especially since my tools really make hollow grinding quite difficult.

My grinds don't match too well, but I think I can fix some of that. The plunge cuts at the ricassos' don't match to well either... but I think I can true them up a bit.

I still plan to do a bit more thinning to the handles... a couple of little design/shape changes here and there, and have more holes to drill (to attach scales and to drop some weight). I can see that I'll be doing a lot of hand sanding as well (220 thru 800 or so). I also plan to do some file work on the back spines (I'm hoping the file work will draw the attention away from my poor grinds

).

The wood in pictures is from a Cherry Burl I just sawed up a week ago. I plan to use some of it for scales on these knives.

I know some of you will just HATE those serrations, but I use them a lot on my other knives.

The Graham copy.

strahd71 · May 29, 2009

that knife with the serrations is awsome!

jake

James_Terrio · May 29, 2009

If you're doing hollow grinds on a 4x36, you're a braver man than I. That sounds kind of difficult. Keep up the good work, those are coming along nicely. :thumbup:

timcsaw · May 29, 2009

strahd71 said:
that knife with the serrations is awsome!

jake

James_Terrio said:
If you're doing hollow grinds on a 4x36, you're a braver man than I. That sounds kind of difficult. Keep up the good work, those are coming along nicely. :thumbup:

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys...

I did the hollow grinds on the one with serrations on the 4X36... difficult is an understatement... and the variances in the grinds shows. Now I see why those of you who do this a lot, have those big "fancy" belt systems! I'll never try it on a 4X36 again that's for sure.

The hollow grinds on the "Razel-like" one were actually done on my 5 inch bench grinder. I created a "jig" which allowed me to work the blade at a consistent angle and the grinds came out much better (but it gave me problems as the grinds approached the ricasso). I have some ideas though, on how I can hopefully minimize some of my mistakes on both blades. Time will tell.

James_Terrio · May 29, 2009

timcsaw said:
The hollow grinds on the "Razel-like" one were actually done on my 5 inch bench grinder.

Adapt and overcome.

Starting out with less-than-optimal tools builds character.

timcsaw · May 29, 2009

James_Terrio said:
Adapt and overcome. Starting out with less-than-optimal tools builds character.

Yes it does! And it also builds... burnt fingers... lower back pain.... callouses... sanded knuckles etc. etc.

JasonSCarter · May 29, 2009

Great Progress so far! I love the looks of both. Your plunges look like mine before I clean them up with a round file. Great Job man!

Jason

timcsaw · Jun 10, 2009

JasonSCarter said:
Great Progress so far! I love the looks of both. Your plunges look like mine before I clean them up with a round file. Great Job man!

Jason

This is gonna' take a couple of back-to-back posts... lot's of pics and questions for you experts.

As always, suggestions welcome and appreciated!:thumbup:

This is the Razel-ish one. I've gotten the grinds to look a little better and a bit more even. Drilled my holes and roughed out the ring. I'll do some file work at some point prior to HT. I've also been sanding it out a bit, and here I have a question;

How far should I sand it down now, BEFORE I normalize and do the final HT? 400 grit? 600 grit?

timcsaw · Jun 10, 2009

I'm going to use some cherry burl on both of these knives... this is obviously just a rough cut for the Razel. This burl came from my property about 10 years ago and has been drying all that time. I just cut it up into slabs a few weeks ago.

Questions; As it's been drying for 10 years, do I really NEED to stabilize it? I'll be finishing it with a tung oil or teak oil finish. What happens/can happen if I don't stabilize it? Can I stabilize it myself?

firebert · Jun 10, 2009

Wood handles were used without stablilization for hundreds of years. Just look at all of your old kitchen knives.

That said, stabilized wood is simply more durable and has little movement. It will last longer and it won't shrink/swell with the weather.

Your choice. Nice looking wood, by the way.