Help me MAKE a fixed blade... please?

[silver_pilate]

Check out Admiral Steel. They usually have decent prices really. Also, Pop's Knife Supplies may have some in stock. Otherwise, check for Aldo Bruno's 1084 in the for sale section.

--nathan

 

[byersj79]

Why not just get some 1095 from jantz. It's cheap. I don't have much experience with other types but it seems easy enough to heat treat with my small homemade propane forge. Your charcoal forge will work too. I heat to non magnetic then quench tip first in transmission fluid heated to about 125 degrees. Then I draw in the oven at 500 for an hour then cool and draw again for another hour. A dull file shouldn't cut it. Like I said I don't have much experience with other steel but I recommend 1095.

 

[Mikel_24]

..I recommend 1095...

Any time someone asks in BF for the kind of steel best suited for home made knives (without the aid of precision controlled HT equipment I mean), O1 is the steel of choice. Seems to be well forgiving and you have more room for error than with any other steel. I recall reading that 1095 is more difficult to propertly HT at home. But like I said, better get a hold of the tools and methods of making a knife with cheaper steels, that's why I suggested leaf spring steel.
Mikel

 

[byersj79]

Hey Mikel 24 didn't mean to step on your feet. I'd say your probably right with the O1 but it's expensive to me and I've heard it isn't much better than 1095. I have some questions for you or anyone that can help me. Like I said I have very limited experience, meaning none, with any steel other than 1095 and HC railroad spike knives. This is a forge like mine http://www.zoellerforge.com/litforge.jpg Is this good enough to heat treat 1095 the way I've been doing stated in my last post? What are some of the things I should watch for with 1095? I have a book "How to make a Scagel slip joint folder" and I'm following the author's model for heat treating and it seems to work. My blades are hard and seems to hold up to use. However I don't know if I'm heat treating to the full potential of the steel. Anyway guys I guess I spoke too soon for the 1095, I apologize but it seems like mine are turning out fine with the equipment I have.

 

[Mikel_24]

Hey Mikel 24 didn't mean to step on your feet...

No ofense taken at all byersj! I guess I might have sound a tad rough but it is all about the languaje barrier (as you can see, being from Spain English is not my first languaje). I think that without dedicated HT equipment none of us are getting their steels to their full potential, wheter it is 1095, O1 or D2. It works just fine but hardness is not going to be consistent through a batch of blades and we have no idea about how they score in the RC scale. Mi blades also seem to get and keep a nice edge, but I bet it can be done way better. There seems to be a lot of knifemakers out there who profile, ground and finish the blades but... send them out for HT.
BTW, I am curious to know about those railroad spike knives of yours... any pics you could share? So far I have only done stock removal and I bet that starting with a railorad spike involves a fair amount of forging (at least to get a flat shape out of the spike!).
Mikel

 

[byersj79]

I've only done a few and I'm not the best at it yet. Here's one that I'm working on, well probably done with actually it didn't turn out so well.



I used a really pitted and rusty one to get the effect of an antique knife but it didn't work out too well. Not too good of a pic either took with my blackberry. Honestly to get where you see here it only took about 2 hours, others that I've finished and look better took about 6 hours or so but only an hour or so on the anvil. I hear a good hammer man, which I'm not, saves a lot of time on the grinder by shaping most of it on the anvil. I'm not there yet but it's still a lot of fun.

 

[byersj79]

Oh shoot sorry guys for the huge pic didn't know it would be that big.

 

[Mikel_24]

Oh shoot sorry guys for the huge pic didn't know it would be that big.

Don't worry, it is not 800x600 but it is not that big anyway. I recall seeing some of your work right here in BF. It looks good and probably way better than my first tries at pounding red hot steel will look like.
Mikel

 

[Jeff Clark]

Look around your area and see if you can find a store that sells muzzle-loading supplies. I found some 1084 and other knife making supplies at a local store called "Mountain Man". Of course this really was in mountain man territory. Up in the hills aways is an area that Kit Carson loved to trap. You might also ask at a local automotive customizing shop that does spring work. You are looking for stock in dimensions and alloys that you can use for heavy springs.

 

[timcsaw]

Just to update... I went on a "steel hunt" today and was given a full length leaf spring from an old truck (5' X 2.5" X approx. 1/4"), and additionally, found another source for additional steel. An old farmer friend restores old farm implements (dump rakes, disk harrows etc.) and he said I can take from his unusable pile. For now I'll just work with the spring and see how it goes.

A couple of questions; I assume this full length spring will need to be annealed before I try to do anything to it, and obviously it will have to be flattened as well. As we are still in the snow up here (expecting 10" more tonight), and my fire will be outside, I also assume that now isn't the best time to try to build a hot fire to "cook" this spring to anneal it and try to flatten it... Yes? I'm sure I can get the required heat, but I am concerned about it "slowly cooling" (might not cool to slowly with the temps around 20F). Am I right that I should probably wait until the weather warms up?

I was also given a nice piece of flat stock... 8" X 15" X approx. 3/16, but I have no idea what kind of steel it is. I've been doing a ton of reading of late, and I know I saw something somewhere about identifying steel by the type of sparks it throws off the grinder... did I imagine reading this?

 

[James_Terrio]

...I saw something somewhere about identifying steel by the type of sparks it throws off the grinder... did I imagine reading this?

Nope Spark Test spoken here.

 

[Mikel_24]

...A couple of questions; I assume this full length spring will need to be annealed before I try to do anything to it, and obviously it will have to be flattened as well.

Uh... maybe not. Let me elaborate a tad more. When I was in my own haunt for steel I found out about my actual leaf spring steel suplier. I asked for annealed leaf spring and he told me that right now they don't have that kind of steel. They used to buy it in the annealed straight state and then they did all the bending and HT. They don't do it any more. It is not cost effective. They have all the needed equipment there though.

That said I went ahead and bought it as it was (hardened and bent, acording to the suplier). For the first knife I crafted, I did anneal the steel and straightened after that. The next ones were shaped, drilled and ground WITHOUT previously anealing the leaf spring. I also straightened them with a vice clamp or some nice hits with a hammer. They weren't that bent either. Well, the last knife I crafted took some leverage to straighten it... like a 3feet angle iron clamped to the top of it and pulled with all I had...

So, I would advice you to try to drill, cut and grind that leaf spring as it is. If your files don't scratch it, well, you will need to anneal. But maybe you are able to avoid that process. You can alway straighten your steel once the blade is profiled (angle grinder, band saw or whatever you have). That way you will have to fight agains a much smaller section of steel.

Good luck and tell us how it goes.
Mikel

 

[timcsaw]

Uh... maybe not. Let me elaborate a tad more. When I was in my own haunt for steel I found out about my actual leaf spring steel suplier. I asked for annealed leaf spring and he told me that right now they don't have that kind of steel. They used to buy it in the annealed straight state and then they did all the bending and HT. They don't do it any more. It is not cost effective. They have all the needed equipment there though.

That said I went ahead and bought it as it was (hardened and bent, acording to the suplier). For the first knife I crafted, I did anneal the steel and straightened after that. The next ones were shaped, drilled and ground WITHOUT previously anealing the leaf spring. I also straightened them with a vice clamp or some nice hits with a hammer. They weren't that bent either. Well, the last knife I crafted took some leverage to straighten it... like a 3feet angle iron clamped to the top of it and pulled with all I had...

So, I would advice you to try to drill, cut and grind that leaf spring as it is. If your files don't scratch it, well, you will need to anneal. But maybe you are able to avoid that process. You can alway straighten your steel once the blade is profiled (angle grinder, band saw or whatever you have). That way you will have to fight agains a much smaller section of steel.

Good luck and tell us how it goes.
Mikel

Sounds like a plan, and I agree. I'd rather fight the shaped blank rather than the entire length of spring.

Once I do have something ready to "cook" in my fire (the small blank, or entire spring if my file won't touch it), is there any problem with me doing the firing outside in my climate? I've seen steel placed into a VERY hot, hardwood bonfire and just left in there until the fire has gone out and everything is cool (IE start the bonfire, put in the steel, come back tomorrow after everything has cooled and pick up the steel with your bare hand).

My concern, it being winter and cold, will the steel cool to rapidly? As I've read, the process of "annealing" involves heat to non-magnetic, then a very slow gradual cool.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

And Oh... If the steel is really BLACK after it comes out of the fire annealed, does that mean it will be a REALLY GOOD steel to use to make a TACTICAL blade from??

 

[Mikel_24]

...My concern, it being winter and cold, will the steel cool to rapidly? As I've read, the process of "annealing" involves heat to non-magnetic, then a very slow gradual cool...

I think you are talking about the Greenpete knife making videos. That's what got me all started on this crazy thing of knife making (I even made my blade supporting jig just like his but using tube instead of round stock). I guess that instead of letting the bonfire consume itself and then cool down in the open air, you may get a slower cooling down rate if you try to insulate it somehow.
When I annealed my first leaf spring I used a box shapep construction of fire bricks with a drilled tube in the lower part in order to blow fresh air inside. I left it open in the top and used about a whole bag of charcoal. I lit it, switch on the hairdrier, let the charcoal cook itself with the pieces of leaf spring inside and when I was sure it was all cherry red, I shut down the hairdrier and closed the box-like construction with more firebricks. 24h later I was still unable to touch the firebricks (not to mention the steel pieces).
If you don't want to buy firebricks, you can dig a hole in the ground, stick some short of tube in there to blow fresh air inside, build a nice fire and when it is running... add a bag of charcoal with your blades at the same time, switch on the fan and when everything is hotter than hell... bury it. The dirt should insulate it well enough I guess. If you can access some ... how do you guys call it... uh... woodchips? saw dust? (but not the powder like size... the bigger one, the one you sprinkle on the floor when you spill liquids). Thats a great insulator as well. Some guys bring the steel to cherry red and then bury them in a box full of ashes but... well.. I never figured out how to make such a huge amount of ashes (we are talking about a 3x1x1 feet box, or so I recall).

If you have one of those BBQ with a cover, you can try to use that but don't let it ouside in the open air, bring it in the garage or something. Whatever you do, don't worry, the steel won't get harder than it is now. Maybe you don't let it cool down slow enough and you don't get it fully annealed, but by no means are you quenching it! So it won't be that hard.

I hope this helps.

Mikel

 

[timcsaw]

I think you are talking about the Greenpete knife making videos. That's what got me all started on this crazy thing of knife making (I even made my blade supporting jig just like his but using tube instead of round stock). I guess that instead of letting the bonfire consume itself and then cool down in the open air, you may get a slower cooling down rate if you try to insulate it somehow.
When I annealed my first leaf spring I used a box shapep construction of fire bricks with a drilled tube in the lower part in order to blow fresh air inside. I left it open in the top and used about a whole bag of charcoal. I lit it, switch on the hairdrier, let the charcoal cook itself with the pieces of leaf spring inside and when I was sure it was all cherry red, I shut down the hairdrier and closed the box-like construction with more firebricks. 24h later I was still unable to touch the firebricks (not to mention the steel pieces).
If you don't want to buy firebricks, you can dig a hole in the ground, stick some short of tube in there to blow fresh air inside, build a nice fire and when it is running... add a bag of charcoal with your blades at the same time, switch on the fan and when everything is hotter than hell... bury it. The dirt should insulate it well enough I guess. If you can access some ... how do you guys call it... uh... woodchips? saw dust? (but not the powder like size... the bigger one, the one you sprinkle on the floor when you spill liquids). Thats a great insulator as well. Some guys bring the steel to cherry red and then bury them in a box full of ashes but... well.. I never figured out how to make such a huge amount of ashes (we are talking about a 3x1x1 feet box, or so I recall).

If you have one of those BBQ with a cover, you can try to use that but don't let it ouside in the open air, bring it in the garage or something. Whatever you do, don't worry, the steel won't get harder than it is now. Maybe you don't let it cool down slow enough and you don't get it fully annealed, but by no means are you quenching it! So it won't be that hard.

I hope this helps.

Mikel

Excellent! Just what I was looking for. Yes, I saw GreenPete and said to myself... "self, I can do that!"

I asked about doing it now (at this time of year when it's cold), with the hopes that someone would tell me I can anneal it in cold weather. I'm quite anxious to get started and hated to think I would have to wait until warmer spring weather. Your ideas hit the spot! Thanks!

YEA! I can get started!!:thumbup::thumbup:

I'll try to post regular pics as I proceed.

 

[timcsaw]

Just an update... I didn't want anyone to think I'd forgotten about this project (I'm just slow... Actually I'd procrastinate, but I don't feel like it right now.)

Anyway, I was fortunate to be given a full sized, brand new leaf spring by a friend of mine and I'm just now getting around to begin the process. I wanted to post pictures of my progress as I go so here are just a couple. Not much really, but I wanted to show the stock I'm starting with. I included my EDC Spyderco D'allara for perspective.

I've cut off two lengths of the spring and cooked them in a hot fire enough to pound them flat (much harder that I thought it would be by the way... I have the greatest respect for those of you who forge and pound steel all day!!!). Then the pieces went back into the fire, along with an old file for another project, to anneal. They stayed in the fire until the following day until they'd cooled off.

Next step (I guess?) is to layout my blade shape, etc. and cut out the blank. I intend to do the majority of rough cutting with a cut-off disk until I can start using the bench grinder. Once the blank is shaped via cut-off, bench grinder, belt sander, hand file, etc. I'll drill holes for handle pins.

Then it's off to the belt sander/hand file to begin the grind stock removal (I think?). Once I've gotten it shaped, have the bevel/grind done, I'll start the fine work of cleanup (edge geometry, fine sanding/polishing etc.)

========

AT THIS POINT I HAVE A QUESTION! Since I'll have been doing all this cutting, grinding, sanding etc, I assume that I will have probably re-heated a lot of the steel in places as I did the stock removal(?)... Should I put it back into the fire again to cook over night to anneal it again BEFORE the quench?

==========

Once I've pretty well fine finished the blank, it's back to the hot, hot fire, to non-magnetic etc. and the quench.

After quench, it's into the wife's oven for a couple hours to stink up her house.

Then, I'll put the torch to the back spine and anything else I might want to soften.

If I'm roughly right in my outlined process above, I'd appreciate a "yay" or "nay" from one of you experts. If I'm way off, please bump me in the right direction.

I've never done this before, so I'll take all of the criticism/help I can get. Like I always say, "There are no stupid questions.... but there are stupid people (like me) who ask good questions!"

Here are a couple pics of my tremendous progress so far....

 

[JasonSCarter]

[qoute]"Once I've pretty well fine finished the blank, it's back to the hot, hot fire, to non-magnetic etc. and the quench.

After quench, it's into the wife's oven for a couple hours to stink up her house.

Then, I'll put the torch to the back spine and anything else I might want to soften.

If I'm roughly right in my outlined process above, I'd appreciate a "yay" or "nay" from one of you experts. If I'm way off, please bump me in the right direction.

I've never done this before, so I'll take all of the criticism/help I can get. Like I always say, "There are no stupid questions.... but there are stupid people (like me) who ask good questions!"

Here are a couple pics of my tremendous progress so far...."[qoute]

so far so good, to anneal heat it up normalize 2x on the 3rd time put it in an old cooler full of sand or vermiculite to slow cool over night.
Shape your blade with it annealed.
once shaped, filed, and drilled (get a handle for that file your hand will thank you, & keep your edge about .040" -.062" thick)
Normalize 2x then on the 3rd quench in your mineral oil. (no side to side motion) Transfer immediatly to a preheated 400ºF oven for 2 hours, then let it cool to air temp then back in for a 2nd cycle of 2 hours.
now comes the hours of hand sanding the scale off and fretting over every little scratch.

Jason




Jason

 

[timcsaw]

so far so good, to anneal heat it up normalize 2x on the 3rd time put it in an old cooler full of sand or vermiculite to slow cool over night.

Thanks Jason... so your saying I really haven't properly annealed it by heating it in my bonfire just the one time? It got red hot in there and I just let it cool as the fire burned out over night. I think you are telling me that I need to repeat that process 2 more times to properly anneal it ?(Is "normalize" the same thing as anneal????)

If I get you right, after the last time I put it in the fire to normalize (which will be the third time overall), I then put it in sand to slow cool. (hope I got you right?)

Shape your blade with it annealed.
once shaped, filed, and drilled (get a handle for that file your hand will thank you, & keep your edge about .040" -.062" thick)

Gotcha'.:thumbup:

Normalize 2x then on the 3rd quench in your mineral oil. (no side to side motion) Transfer immediatly to a preheated 400ºF oven for 2 hours, then let it cool to air temp then back in for a 2nd cycle of 2 hours.
now comes the hours of hand sanding the scale off and fretting over every little scratch.
Jason

About the bold above. After I've drilled, shaped, filed etc. I want to put it back into the bonfire three more times to again, anneal it (normalize it?), and after the third fire, do the quench, (then immediately put it in the oven etc. etc.) Do I have that right?

Thanks for your help and patience with me Jason (and all).... I'm learning and having a blast at the same time!!!

 

[timcsaw]

Bump for JasonSCarter or anyone else who can advise...

 

[panch0]

I do stock removal, so I can't really help ya. I made a knife kind of like the one you are wanting to make. Its not very pretty but it is my favorite user fixed blade. Here is a pic. Good luck.

-frank