Higher standards for hard use folders today?

[LorenzoL]

It is a pretty strong folder that will handle 99% of what you throw at it. It won't handle YouTube videos, though...

 

[Ankerson]

It is a pretty strong folder that will handle 99% of what you throw at it. It won't handle YouTube videos, though...

They are pretty tough really, I haven't tested one yet, but I do think it would make it though my testing except for maybe the tip might snap off.

That wouldn't make Chris very happy. ROFL

I would put it in the Medium use range because of the fine tip.

 

[trix2004]

Sebenza good knife , I have two of them , and sure will handle all "normal use".
but thin hollow grind blade with very thin tip wont take any abuse , Chris even do not recommend wrist flicking it . sorry but I cant call it "hard use " .

 

[philwar]

It is a pretty strong folder that will handle 99% of what you throw at it. It won't handle YouTube videos, though...

I think it would survive Jim's test with no damage except perhaps the tip. Not gonna offer mine though. But it's very tough.
I'd like the blade to be thicker but that's just personal taste. The Sebenza inspires great confidence when you use it. I don't think it lacks for anything except perhaps a saber grind instead of a hollow grind. But again, that just personal preference.

 

[STR]

Personally I have felt that ever since the Sebenza was created that it pushed for a higher standard both in tolerances and in lock performance and durability/reliability. Until that knife was created by Chris the only way to obtain anywhere near that level of tolerance or performance was to research a maker, seek him out after you are convinced he can meet your demands and then order a knife from him. Most just bought the next best thing which may have been something nice but not to the level of engineering seen in the Sebenza.

From that knife model forward the race was on and everyone tried to achieve better or match it searching for the bigger better deal in folding knives. Here lately we've seen some very good lock inventions both in the old tried and true type like Chris has created from the base of the Walker Liner lock to the modifications of the Triad lock to incorporate a stop pin between the blade and the rocker arm that did wonders for the design quite frankly, to completely new lock inventions like the Axis lock used by Benchmade and Compression lock by Spyderco but nice as all of these are none of them match up to the tolerances of the Sebenza for precision engineering so yes we've moved forward in some ways, but not so much in others. Still modern CNC machining does make it possible for manufacturers and makers to be more consistent and more elaborate in their design capabilities. I mean knives like the G & G Hawk E.T. would have been impossible to pull off just 20 years ago. Its a wonderful time to be a knife nut thats for sure. :thumbup:

STR

 

[LorenzoL]

The tip on the 'Zaan is stronger, I am not sure about that ceramic ball lock interface. Mine has not seen any spine whacking so I cannot say for sure.

Or you can opt for the wharnie...

 

[Ankerson]

The tip on the 'Zaan is stronger, I am not sure about that ceramic ball lock interface. Mine has not seen any spine whacking so I cannot say for sure.

Or you can opt for the wharnie...

The only thing I am not too sure about is the combination of the over strikes and spine whacks. I can't say because I haven't tested one, but they are strong knives. That tip looks to be thicker than the standard ones.

I don't think anyone will be tripping over themselves to send me one to test either. ROFL

If I owned one I would test it, but I don't own one so I can only guess.

 

[Ankerson]

Personally I have felt that ever since the Sebenza was created that it pushed for a higher standard both in tolerances and in lock performance and durability/reliability. Until that knife was created by Chris the only way to obtain anywhere near that level of tolerance or performance was to research a maker, seek him out after you are convinced he can meet your demands and then order a knife from him. Most just bought the next best thing which may have been something nice but not to the level of engineering seen in the Sebenza.


STR

I agree, the Sebenza is a Semi Custom knife IMO with the tolerances of many Customs. :thumbup:

The Sebenza was the knife that set the high standard for F&F and quality.

It's doesn't matter if you like the knife or not, it's still the one that all others are compared too and Chris Reeve is to be Commended for that feat. :thumbup:

 

[LorenzoL]

The only thing I am not too sure about is the combination of the over strikes and spine whacks. I can't say because I haven't tested one, but they are strong knives. That tip looks to be thicker than the standard ones.

I don't think anyone will be tripping over themselves to send me one to test either. ROFL

If I owned one I would test it, but I don't own one so I can only guess.

I think marthinus may have conducted some of these tests already : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759360

 

[STR]

I agree, the Sebenza is a Semi Custom knife IMO with the tolerances of many Customs. :thumbup:

The Sebenza was the knife that set the high standard for F&F and quality.

It's doesn't matter if you like the knife or not, it's still the one that all others are compared too and Chris Reeve is to be Commended for that feat. :thumbup:

Yeah it isn't that its as hard a use knife as some being made today. I'm sure you'd break a tip doing certain parts of your video test using one, particularly if it was a classic model. The regular may hold up better but even then I would not be surprised to see one lose a tip. For the Sebenza its more the tolerances that set it apart from all the others. For example my specific Small Seb measures .142 for both washers and the blade and when its together the front and the rear measures .142 all hardware is tightened all the way down, no lock tite is needed becuase the screws are tight and butted against the ti frame but good. Every stand off is exactly the same. The slabs are the same front to rear, the bevel is even all the way up the blade, and the holes drilled are precise and to the exact same depth as each other The rounded edges of the frame and the bevels there are all exacting and precise to the same width everywhere. Even the engraved lettering is exacting and to the same depth with each letter precisely done. Each of the four Sebenza models I've owned whether regular, classic, large or small has been this way. No where else do you find that really, not consistently anyway. Its amazing to find one that way but to do so consistently year after year in a production manner is certainly noteworthy.

STR

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah it isn't that its as hard a use knife as some being made today. I'm sure you'd break a tip doing certain parts of your video test using one, particularly if it was a classic model. The regular may hold up better but even then I would not be surprised to see one lose a tip. For the Sebenza its more the tolerances that set it apart from all the others. For example my specific Small Seb measures .142 for both washers and the blade and when its together the front and the rear measures .142 all hardware is tightened all the way down, no lock tite is needed becuase the screws are tight and butted against the ti frame but good. Every stand off is exactly the same. The slabs are the same front to rear, the bevel is even all the way up the blade, and the holes drilled are precise and to the exact same depth as each other The rounded edges of the frame and the bevels there are all exacting and precise to the same width everywhere. Even the engraved lettering is exacting and to the same depth with each letter precisely done. Each of the four Sebenza models I've owned whether regular, classic, large or small has been this way. No where else do you find that really, not consistently anyway. Its amazing to find one that way but to do so consistently year after year in a production manner is certainly noteworthy.

STR

I always thought they were excellent knives, but I went with Strider instead because they are just tougher, thicker blades etc and that's what I wanted.

And on that topic I think it's amazing and noteworthy that CS is making knives like the AL, AK-47 and Recon 1 that will go toe to toe with knives like the Strider SmF costing almost 8 times as much. The SmF is one of the strongest knives out there right now IMO so that is a real feat in itself. :thumbup:

I think the Strider has the edge on heavy prying due to the thicker blades, but other than that it's all good.

 

[Boats]

Will someone please define "hard use?" Undoubtedly, folders as a class for outdoor use have come a ways from the Buck 110, but really now, most of what I see called "hard use" or "abuse" is rather silly.

So, where is the line between, "This is hard use," and "that was freaking retarded."?

 

[singularity35]

So, where is the line between, "This is hard use," and "that was freaking retarded."?

I think the line is very subjective. Wherever you want it to be. It's just like "why is a sebenza nice?". No offense intended but if you don't get it you probably shouldn't get one.

 

[STR]

Will someone please define "hard use?" Undoubtedly, folders as a class for outdoor use have come a ways from the Buck 110, but really now, most of what I see called "hard use" or "abuse" is rather silly.

So, where is the line between, "This is hard use," and "that was freaking retarded."?

In many ways the definition is subjective to the user as to what he/she expects from his folder. But there are some things to look at that can indicate the obvious as to what the folder is capable of and what category it may fall into. One is that many knife brands use hype to advertise. Discerning the hype from what is real can be tricky so you break it down to figure it out for yourself.

Lets consider a true hard use knife. Take a Strider SMF or SnG as it comes from the factory. Obtuse edge profile, and primary grind geared for heavier use as opposed to detail slicer. Many knives will come with a lock that is just as hard use and just as capable as these models but if the blade is fillet knife thin or has a thin hollow grind well, you can kind of take it from there. A lot of knives may have one part of their make up that is harder use capable. If the other parts are not up there with that harder use part though well, its all for naught it is still not a hard use knife per say.The Hinderer and Strider would be more apt to take serious prying and chipping out wood vs the Sebenza which has a thinner tip that would probably snap during the same uses. So even though the locks are equal the blades are not due to grind and profile differences in the blade for example.

One may have a good heavier duty looking blade and even have a thicker reinforced tip but if its equipped with a whimpy lock of some kind, or it may not have a bull pivot or a heavy duty stop, or heavier duty screw construction well, its iffy as to if it really qualifies as a true hard use folder. When the whole comes together where all things that can be indicative of hard use due to heavier design features you can put two and two together. Look at the hardware on the Striders and compare. Look at the handle material. Bigger screws, bigger pivot, beefy stop, G10, thicker blade, thicker grind geometry, beefy slab lock, made for use with gloved hands or bare hands both all indicate a hard use folder. If it was all these things or just a few of them and the non lock side had mother of pearl or tortoise shell handle scales well you can kind of figure at that point its not truly designed for serious outdoor hard use now is it?

STR

 

[singularity35]

In many ways the definition is subjective to the user as to what he/she expects from his folder. But there are some things to look at that can indicate the obvious as to what the folder is capable of and what category it may fall into. One is that many knife brands use hype to advertise. Discerning the hype from what is real can be tricky so you break it down to figure it out for yourself.

Lets consider a true hard use knife. Take a Strider SMF or SnG as it comes from the factory. Obtuse edge profile, and primary grind geared for heavier use as opposed to detail slicer. Many knives will come with a lock that is just as hard use and just as capable as these models but if the blade is fillet knife thin or has a thin hollow grind well, you can kind of take it from there. A lot of knives may have one part of their make up that is harder use capable. If the other parts are not up there with that harder use part though well, its all for naught it is still not a hard use knife per say.The Hinderer and Strider would be more apt to take serious prying and chipping out wood vs the Sebenza which has a thinner tip that would probably snap during the same uses. So even though the locks are equal the blades are not due to grind and profile differences in the blade for example.

One may have a good heavier duty looking blade and even have a thicker reinforced tip but if its equipped with a whimpy lock of some kind, or it may not have a bull pivot or a heavy duty stop, or heavier duty screw construction well, its iffy as to if it really qualifies as a true hard use folder. When the whole comes together where all things that can be indicative of hard use due to heavier design features you can put two and two together. Look at the hardware on the Striders and compare. Look at the handle material. Bigger screws, bigger pivot, beefy stop, G10, thicker blade, thicker grind geometry, beefy slab lock, made for use with gloved hands or bare hands both all indicate a hard use folder. If it was all these things or just a few of them and the non lock side had mother of pearl or tortoise shell handle scales well you can kind of figure at that point its not truly designed for serious outdoor hard use now is it?

STR

Very well said!

 

[hardheart]

Everything can be subjected to 'hard use' relative to its design. Folders really aren't 'hard use' to begin with, relative to what people do with hand tools. The impressive things to do with a folder are just average tasks for hand tools in general. Folders are so popular because they work, and they work because a knife is primarily a cutting tool. Engineering them to do more is fine, but they don't do that much very well. When we get one that can do something where someone would say "Man, I wouldn't do that with my hatchet, small pry bar, or hammer.", then I think it'll be something. Until then, they're good cutters and marginal everything-elsers.

 

[Boats]

I think the line is very subjective. Wherever you want it to be. It's just like "why is a sebenza nice?". No offense intended but if you don't get it you probably shouldn't get one.

No offense intended, but I more than get what many of them are all about. In most respects, we're discussing so-called "knives" where the style--and in certain examples--excuses for an appalling lack of fit and finish for the amount of one's hard earned cash demanded, is far more important than the actual qualities one would associate with a folding cutting tool.

 

[singularity35]

No offense intended, but I more than get what many of them are all about. In most respects, we're discussing so-called "knives" where the style--and in certain examples--excuses for an appalling lack of fit and finish for the amount of one's hard earned cash demanded, is far more important than the actual qualities one would associate with a folding cutting tool.

Again, no offense. The qualities needed in a folding cutting tool are probably not really what one would find in "hard use" categories. I do carry a slicer if that's what you mean, for when I need a pure cutting tool. But the qualities of "hard use" are what I want in a, here it comes, folder that I reserve for SD(possible weapon use). This is the folder that I want as much as possible to be "bulletproof".

PS: here's a definition I found in another thread.

Definition of a Tactical Folder:
A tactical folder as "a knife used by people who need a dependable piece of solidly build equipment, a folder that gives you -- in all cases -- confidence".

You can substitute the phrase "hard use" for "tactical" which I don't really like.

 

[Boats]

Again, no offense. The qualities needed in a folding cutting tool are probably not really what one would find in "hard use" categories. I do carry a slicer if that's what you mean, for when I need a pure cutting tool. But the qualities of "hard use" are what I want in a, here it comes, folder that I reserve for SD(possible weapon use). This is the folder that I want as much as possible to be "bulletproof".

So what about a knife that covers both contingencies fairly well, what to make of it?

For example, is a large Benchmade Rukus a "hard use folder," or is it too delicate?

Why would something thicker, heavier or just as heavy, shorter bladed, mechanically sloppier, poorer ergonomically, and which doesn't likely cut as well, not be subject to the law of diminishing returns on "hard use?"

 

[hardheart]

Well, imo, folders make worse weapons than hard use tools. I went with the SD tactical idea for a while, but then decided that there aren't situations where a knife can legally be used and also be reasonably expected to be effective.