Higher standards for hard use folders today?

[singularity35]

So what about a knife that covers both contingencies fairly well, what to make of it?

For example, is a large Benchmade Rukus a "hard use folder," or is it too delicate?

Why would something thicker, heavier or just as heavy, shorter bladed, mechanically sloppier, poorer ergonomically, and which doesn't likely cut as well, not be subject to the law of diminishing returns on "hard use?"

I'm sure you're right but edges can be thinned and reprofiled. At worst you can use the point.

Well, imo, folders make worse weapons than hard use tools. I went with the SD tactical idea for a while, but then decided that there aren't situations where a knife can legally be used and also be reasonably expected to be effective.

Lucky for me, here in the Philippines the concept of SD is easier to claim and prove. SD with a firearm actually is more of a hassle with FA laws. I do usually have a CCW.

 

[godot]

I think locks have been a major force in making knives stronger. Every time a new lock came out, there were major discussions about how strong the new lock was and how dangerous the older locks were. When liner locks came out, you could get the impression that lock backs were a major cause of finger loss. Then when Axis locks came out we had the same discussions about liner locks. Then frame locks and so on.
As we got new locks we got new steel and tougher designs.
I think locks were a force in pushing the envelope in making pocket knives stronger.

 

[monger4142]

I think the only contribution to the knife industry by CS are hilarious videos of a fat guy in a spandex suit two sizes too small. No hype surrounding any other knife company can come close to that.
I stand by my earlier statement, CS knives are at the bottom of the heap in terms of design or quality. To say that the improvement in overall folder design was promoted by CS is an insult to guys like Kit Carson, Pat Crawford, Allen Elishewitz and many more who kept pushing the envelope.

Wise words, 100% agreed

 

[Boats]

I think locks have been a major force in making knives stronger. Every time a new lock came out, there were major discussions about how strong the new lock was and how dangerous the older locks were. When liner locks came out, you could get the impression that lock backs were a major cause of finger loss. Then when Axis locks came out we had the same discussions about liner locks. Then frame locks and so on.
As we got new locks we got new steel and tougher designs.
I think locks were a force in pushing the envelope in making pocket knives stronger.

I agree that this has come into play a bit as yet another "latest and greatest" contest in the knife world, but it's been over thought too.

Maybe it's because I am left handed, but I view both liner locks and various frame locks as disfavored for "hard use" because of their built in handedness bias, even when I can and have bought left handed versions of such locks.

I prefer truly ambidextrous designs like the lock back, the AXIS, and others, where the lock integrity is not assisted by the dominant hand the knife was made for, nor compromised if used hard in the "wrong hand."

I don't get to decide which hand may have been broken in a car accident, a fall, or bitten by animal, suffers frostbite, whatever. My knife has to be easily opened and closed with either hand alone, and not be in the least dependent on "getting stronger" through the compression of the lock in the intended direction biased into its dominant design handedness.

No one I know would carry a fixed blade that was easier, or safer, to use in one hand rather than the other. Why would I carry a folder that was built so?

(Yes I understand that stops and other methods have been designed to limit over travel of the tang by the liner or frame lock, but none that I am aware of limit the accidental compression of the liner or frame lock back towards its closing position if one is forced to use it "wrong handed.")

I tend to discount liner and frame locks as "hard use" for these reasons, no matter how robustly built they may otherwise be.

 

[kawr]

I actually think that some companies are taking the whole "hard use tactical" thing a bit too far and losing sight of what a knife is actually supposed to do, which is to actually cut things. Some of these tactical knives are overbuilt to the point where they fail hard at the primary use of any knife and cuts worse than a dull butter knife. Even for tactical/SD use the main purpose of that knife is to slash and pierce. Whats the point of carrying an expensive, overbuilt tactical blade when it wont be able to slash through clothing in a SD or emergency situation? Why not just carry a folder that performs well in its primary purpose (cutting, slicing, piercing) and carry a 15 dollar pocket sized prybar to take care of the abusive stuff people actually never really do in real life? Notice how the actual knife combat experts dont use tacticool knives, they use and carry knives that can actually cut.

I have a profound respect for companies that make sturdy knives with blades that perform well in their primary purpose. I find it hard to believe people will shell out hundreds of dollars for semi sharpened prybars that cant even outperform 15 dollar prybars in prying and smashing things with.

 

[RevDevil]

Does anyone think that having a secondary lock (think Benchmade Ruckus) as a standard feature on "hard use" knives is a good idea?
Edit: Read underlined as "safety", see image in following post.

 

[hardheart]

what secondary lock?

 

[RevDevil]

what secondary lock?

I guess it is more of a safety. The lock cannot be disengaged while that is depressed. See the spine:

 

[hardheart]

is that an auto?

 

[3Guardsmen]

is that an auto?

Yes it is.

 

[RevDevil]

It's assisted opening.
*Off Topic: At least that is what I was told when I bought it.

 

[STR]

Does anyone think that having a secondary lock (think Benchmade Ruckus) as a standard feature on "hard use" knives is a good idea?
Edit: Read underlined as "safety", see image in following post.

Extreme Ratio has this with their Fulcrum II folder and I think a few others. I like it because it is manually operated instead of automatic. A lock for the lock if you will, that you can chose to use if you know you are going to be getting down and dirty with your folder. Its a good idea and it did work quite well. I never should have sold that FII I owned.

I've seen a lock for the lock incorporated on at least one BenchMade Axis lock but I forget the model. Seems it was an assisted opener. Personally I'd like to see some method like that on all Axis locks to keep the button from being bumped during some grips in use.

In a way the CRKT LAWKS system is a similar device in that it is a physical block for the lock. Most of the ones I've seen are the right idea but done with rather flimsy materials so they are not as effective as they could be had they used something a little thicker with some good rigidity to it.

STR

 

[Ankerson]

I actually think that some companies are taking the whole "hard use tactical" thing a bit too far and losing sight of what a knife is actually supposed to do, which is to actually cut things. Some of these tactical knives are overbuilt to the point where they fail hard at the primary use of any knife and cuts worse than a dull butter knife. Even for tactical/SD use the main purpose of that knife is to slash and pierce. Whats the point of carrying an expensive, overbuilt tactical blade when it wont be able to slash through clothing in a SD or emergency situation? Why not just carry a folder that performs well in its primary purpose (cutting, slicing, piercing) and carry a 15 dollar pocket sized prybar to take care of the abusive stuff people actually never really do in real life? Notice how the actual knife combat experts dont use tacticool knives, they use and carry knives that can actually cut.

I have a profound respect for companies that make sturdy knives with blades that perform well in their primary purpose. I find it hard to believe people will shell out hundreds of dollars for semi sharpened prybars that cant even outperform 15 dollar prybars in prying and smashing things with.

You haven't watched my cardboard cutting videos if you think HD hard use folders can't cut, what did you call them.... Sharpened prybars.......

There are a lot of misconceptions and just general bad info floating around on the boards.

The 3 knives (Sharpened Prybars) in the videos below are in these 2 photos...

Top to bottom = CS Black Rhino, ZT 0301, Custom Demko, Strider SmF CC.



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[mjolnir74]

I think everyone that owns knives as a hobby should also learn how to sharpen them. Not that I'm great, but I'm learning. Yes, a slipjoint will cover 99 percent of what I need to cut daily, every now and then I have to put a lot of force behind the cut. That's when I like having a sharpened prybar. I also appreciate the ease of one handed opening and closing. I guess I got a factory defect, because my SMF is hair popping sharp from the factory for the entire length of the edge. I haven't needed to sharpen it yet cause it holds a good edge. My umnumzaan is a definite slicer and is overbuilt for a crk. I really doubt it would have any problem going through clothes for sd. Yes these type of knives probably wouldn't slice through cheese well, but that's why I have a cheese slicer and kitchen knives. Also, if the lock holds on these type of knives and the blade breaks, how is a fixed blade better? Most thinner fb's would probably have broken under the same stress. I realize that some fb's are soo thick that you can't break them.

 

[LorenzoL]

You haven't watched my cardboard cutting videos if you think HD hard use folders can't cut, what did you call them.... Sharpened prybars.......

There are a lot of misconceptions and just general bad info floating around on the boards.

The 3 knives (Sharpened Prybars) in the videos below are in these 2 photos...

Top to bottom = CS Black Rhino, ZT 0301, Custom Demko, Strider SmF CC.



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Those edges look sharp.:thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

Those edges look sharp.:thumbup:

Thanks.

Yes they are extremely sharp. :thumbup:

 

[mnblade]

Personally, I think the world would be a better place with more hard working men, and fewer nerds concerned about "hard use" knives. My Grandad worked like a dog his whole life and had hands like an elephant's hide. He installed glass, did carpentry, built houses and pulled about a million fish out of Lake Okeechobee, downed countless quail in the Everglades, and put more than a few turkey on the family table with an old s/s .12 gauge. He carried a carbon steel Barlow.

 

[Ankerson]

Personally, I think the world would be a better place with more hard working men, and fewer nerds concerned about "hard use" knives. My Grandad worked like a dog his whole life and had hands like an elephant's hide. He installed glass, did carpentry, built houses and pulled about a million fish out of Lake Okeechobee, downed countless quail in the Everglades, and put more than a few turkey on the family table with an old s/s .12 gauge. He carried a carbon steel Barlow.

Yep I also did most of those things too and had a few Barlows when I was a kid back in the 70's.

I also snapped the blades on them.

 

[stabman]

then decided that there aren't situations where a knife can legally be used and also be reasonably expected to be effective.

This is an odd statement.
What is your logic behind it?
How do you explain situations where they were used effectively within a legal context?

 

[Ankerson]

This is an odd statement.
What is your logic behind it?
How do you explain situations where they were used effectively within a legal context?

I think he was talking about SD use, but that's another topic in itself.

Ideally a fixed blade with a 7" + blade would be the best bet for a SD knife, but it's not legal to carry them concealed in most places.

A 4" folding knife isn't the best choice for a SD blade, but due to legal reasons in most places we carry what we can and make due. I am not saying you can't defend yourself with a folder because you can and very well, but there are better knife options for that task.