Higher standards for hard use folders today?

[MikeC]

We've had a thread kinda similar to this before. Yes the bar has been raised and without question the fact that we have essentially been at war continually since 1990 (first gulf war) has had a huge impact on overall technology which has trickled down throughout all sectors of market just look at the guns now compared to 10 years ago, and your going to tell me that us being at war has nothing to do with that. BS, were not spending the kinda money were spending on a global scale (all govts) in terms of military and defense and not going to see some spill over of technological advancement into other applications. To say is to be living in an alternate reality. Case in point the show Practical Tactical that used to come on, that showed this very thing and gave products as reference.

I read an article one time several years back that was talking about knowledge and technology and where it is all going and the writer sited a very sobering statistic that as of year 2000 that an estimated 70% of the worlds knowledge base or the breadth of our acquired knowledge had been achieved, discovered, learned, etc in the decade from 1990 through 2000. Think about that for a minute and what that really means. 70% of knowledge in materials, engineering, medicine, mechanics, material applications, etc. was achieved in a single decade.

They accredited our use of technology such as super comp and the internet with the exponential increase, and went on to say that were now acquiring and expanding the knowledge base at an exponential rate.

Just look back over the last ten years and see how far knives have come, all the new boutique steels, the composites, manf methods, et al. You can get stuff now that wasn't even on the radar 10 years ago, and then look year to year now, not decade to decade. If that article I read was remotely accurate and I happen to think it was, were now acquiring knowledge at a rate that there is a lag before it comes mainstream and it utilized as were acquiring more and better knowledge faster than we can implement what we just newly discovered.

Go to candle power forms and there is a hand held blue lazer that cost 200.00 that will actually cut stuff, blind you or someone else if you just glance at it for a milisecond, can be seen 45 miles away and causes cancer if it touches you after it burns the crap out of you. It is small, cheap and incredibly dangerous, one would say that could realistically is the first step towards a light sabre type device. Think about that and its available right here, right now on line for $200.00.

10 years from now is a pipe dream, there is absolutely no telling what will have, just look at one of the topics in the General Thread today, Stellite6K or titanium carbon composite?

 

[Slim to None]

Thin blades do one thing very well, they slice/ cut very well and that's great if all you want to do is slice cheese and open mail.

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm slicing some mailed cheese with my case peanut

Seriously though, this is where the difference in folding-knife-using philosophy comes into play. I buy folders that cut well; if I wanted to pry something I'd use a more appropriate tool, like the large flathead screwdriver on a Vic farmer, or a prybar. If I want to split some wood I've got a HI khuk or a dogfather, or even a hatchet. Incidentally why do you baton with the lock engaged? It's much harder on the knife.

A folding cold chisel will probably pry and baton through anything but it's not going to cut very well, even with a 6000 grit polished convex edge. A schrade oldtimer stockman with .095 blade stock will cut excellently, and that's 99.5% of my knife usage needs, cutting.

 

[singularity35]

I actually think that some companies are taking the whole "hard use tactical" thing a bit too far and losing sight of what a knife is actually supposed to do, which is to actually cut things. Some of these tactical knives are overbuilt to the point where they fail hard at the primary use of any knife and cuts worse than a dull butter knife. Even for tactical/SD use the main purpose of that knife is to slash and pierce. Whats the point of carrying an expensive, overbuilt tactical blade when it wont be able to slash through clothing in a SD or emergency situation? Why not just carry a folder that performs well in its primary purpose (cutting, slicing, piercing) and carry a 15 dollar pocket sized prybar to take care of the abusive stuff people actually never really do in real life? Notice how the actual knife combat experts dont use tacticool knives, they use and carry knives that can actually cut.

I have a profound respect for companies that make sturdy knives with blades that perform well in their primary purpose. I find it hard to believe people will shell out hundreds of dollars for semi sharpened prybars that cant even outperform 15 dollar prybars in prying and smashing things with.

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm slicing some mailed cheese with my case peanut

Seriously though, this is where the difference in folding-knife-using philosophy comes into play. I buy folders that cut well; if I wanted to pry something I'd use a more appropriate tool, like the large flathead screwdriver on a Vic farmer, or a prybar. If I want to split some wood I've got a HI khuk or a dogfather, or even a hatchet. Incidentally why do you baton with the lock engaged? It's much harder on the knife.

A folding cold chisel will probably pry and baton through anything but it's not going to cut very well, even with a 6000 grit polished convex edge. A schrade oldtimer stockman with .095 blade stock will cut excellently, and that's 99.5% of my knife usage needs, cutting.

But it seems that there is a demand and a market for hard use folders or they would not be popular today. How often their capacity for being used hard will be needed is another question. Buying one is a personal choice and should probably be based on what your projected needs will be.

 

[Boats]

I think what the critics are saying is that the "projected needs" are "projected fantasies" in most cases.

 

[kgd]

Will someone please define "hard use?" Undoubtedly, folders as a class for outdoor use have come a ways from the Buck 110, but really now, most of what I see called "hard use" or "abuse" is rather silly.

So, where is the line between, "This is hard use," and "that was freaking retarded."?

Great point...

In many ways the definition is subjective to the user as to what he/she expects from his folder. But there are some things to look at that can indicate the obvious as to what the folder is capable of and what category it may fall into. One is that many knife brands use hype to advertise. Discerning the hype from what is real can be tricky so you break it down to figure it out for yourself.

Lets consider a true hard use knife. Take a Strider SMF or SnG as it comes from the factory. Obtuse edge profile, and primary grind geared for heavier use as opposed to detail slicer. Many knives will come with a lock that is just as hard use and just as capable as these models but if the blade is fillet knife thin or has a thin hollow grind well, you can kind of take it from there. A lot of knives may have one part of their make up that is harder use capable. If the other parts are not up there with that harder use part though well, its all for naught it is still not a hard use knife per say.The Hinderer and Strider would be more apt to take serious prying and chipping out wood vs the Sebenza which has a thinner tip that would probably snap during the same uses. So even though the locks are equal the blades are not due to grind and profile differences in the blade for example.

One may have a good heavier duty looking blade and even have a thicker reinforced tip but if its equipped with a whimpy lock of some kind, or it may not have a bull pivot or a heavy duty stop, or heavier duty screw construction well, its iffy as to if it really qualifies as a true hard use folder. When the whole comes together where all things that can be indicative of hard use due to heavier design features you can put two and two together. Look at the hardware on the Striders and compare. Look at the handle material. Bigger screws, bigger pivot, beefy stop, G10, thicker blade, thicker grind geometry, beefy slab lock, made for use with gloved hands or bare hands both all indicate a hard use folder. If it was all these things or just a few of them and the non lock side had mother of pearl or tortoise shell handle scales well you can kind of figure at that point its not truly designed for serious outdoor hard use now is it?

STR

Awesome answer STR - but I'm still compelled by Boat's logic

Personally, I think the world would be a better place with more hard working men, and fewer nerds concerned about "hard use" knives.

My sentiments exactly! Amazing how many pristine hard use knives are out there in the for sale section isn't it? Apply that to both fixed and folders...

We've had a thread kinda similar to this before. Yes the bar has been raised and without question the fact that we have essentially been at war continually since 1990 (first gulf war) has had a huge impact on overall technology which has trickled down throughout all sectors of market just look at the guns now compared to 10 years ago, and your going to tell me that us being at war has nothing to do with that. BS, were not spending the kinda money were spending on a global scale (all govts) in terms of military and defense and not going to see some spill over of technological advancement into other applications. To say is to be living in an alternate reality. Case in point the show Practical Tactical that used to come on, that showed this very thing and gave products as reference....

I think you are confusing an idea that a nation at war has inspired industry to furnish better implements of war. Really, a nation at war as inspired interest in the tools of war, industry is in this case is capitalizing on that interest. Fact is most solders are carrying a gerber or leatherman multi-tool and couldn't care less about hard-use this or hard-use that. See Boats response below.

I think what the critics are saying is that the "projected needs" are "projected fantasies" in most cases.

I have to agree. I'm admittedly only looking at this thread because I'm bored with the response rate in my usual hang outs. I tend to hang in W&SS which might be categorized as a hard-use knife area but perhaps that can be debated. We do things with knives that are considered "hard use", even if cardboard cutting is known to dull a blade fast, something we don't do, but I still submit that in W&SS we do "hard use" activities with our edged tools.

Rarely are folders discussed in W&SS. Rarely are folders discussed in survival situations as examples of knives people have or would want with them. There are exceptions. SAKs (Swiss Army Knives) are often referred to for their utility although they could hardly be called hard-use. Still, they are often referred to in the forums that I frequent and my own personal practices in wilderness, i.e. in areas that involve constant hard use and even extreme use of edged tools.

My friend has an older Spyderco Manix - and he loves it. I think it would be a "hard use" knife. Personally, I still think a fixed blade would still be more durable, more "hard use" and really not much any more bulky to carry than that big pocket extender called the manix? I had a spyderco military for a while. Certaintly, this was not a "hard use" blade, with its delicate tip. I actually respected it for its purpose, pointyness and sharpness. But hard use? No. Its no longer in my collection - the last expensive folder I've owned or will likely own.

Anyhow, I will submit that 'hard use' folders have limited actual scope in survival circles outside of some military and even there the application is limited to carry specific circumstances. I also see a lot of military traffic in my areas and military descriptions of folders are far more limited than one my expect from this thread. The amount of people fulfilling that role of need of both "hard-use" and folding technology in the end seems pretty small. The fantasy about hard-use seems to be pretty high. Why not just get a folder that fits in your pocket, is sharp and is used as is intended? Advancements in the industry - hardly!

 

[mjolnir74]

There's a reason that a lot of old slipjoints have broken blades. Those knives got used for whatever the owner needed them for, even if the knife wasn't designed for it. I've cut down 2 inch saplings (sweetgum) with a small slipjoint because it was the only thing I had on me. I don't carry a fixed blade every time I go in the woods, but I always carry some sort of folder because they're easy to carry, and don't bite into your side when you're in a deerstand. They can be used to easily skin larger game. I have needed to cut things one-handed while climbing trees. That's not fantasy. I don't do that type of stuff everyday and I carry a slipjoint everyday, but there are more advantages for me to carry a larger folder when I'm not at work. If you don't like hard use knives go buy what you like. The reason I have several and sold most of my fixed blades is because I NEVER used my fixed blades, except for a few times a year. You can carry a folder and enjoy it much more often.

 

[singularity35]

Whether the projected need is fantasy or not, the fact remains that there are those who are willing to spend their money for what they want. The companies who provide the hard use folders are doing a service to consumers who otherwise cannot purchase what they want. Since a lot of companies who manufacture hard use folders are doing well, it seems that there is a rather large demand for them.

It is kind of like the car market. We have trucks, sports cars, 4X4's, limousines, and finally customs. There's one of each of our tastes. There's a lot of 4X4's on the streets in large urban areas. The owners have the fantasy that they will go offroad someday. so they buy what they want and they are not any less car people than the guys who own Ferraris. Bottom line is, we buy what we want and we don't tell makers to stop making what there's a demand for.

 

[Boats]

Bottom line is, we buy what we want and we don't tell makers to stop making what there's a demand for.

That's a far cry from where we started, when the premise seemed to be that such knives were actually meeting a need that wasn't being addressed by regularly decent folders.

Now, these knives are cranked out to meet the same fate as those 45k "SUVs" that none of the owners can actually take anywhere because they are too expensive and too pretty to damage.

That's not even to mention that some of their rigs only look the part.

 

[singularity35]

That's a far cry from where we started, when the premise seemed to be that such knives were actually meeting a need that wasn't being addressed by regularly decent folders.

Now, these knives are cranked out to meet the same fate as those 45k "SUVs" that none of the owners can actually take anywhere because they are too expensive and too pretty to damage.

That's not even to mention that some of their rigs only look the part.

I actually think that I may need all that "robustness" like I may need my glock and I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I like the reliability of my Glock although I may not use it everyday in the same way that I like my folder to have the capacity for hard use though I may not need it everyday as well. I don't want to have to use my cheese cutterD) folder hard when I need it to be hard use and look at a broken blade or my fingers on the floor.

I was just addressing the "fantasy" aspect that was in a previous post. So what if it's a fantasy? People do buy SUVs wherever they are.

As for looking the part, that's what Ankerson's videos are for. To find out if they just look the part or if they can take the heat.

And finally, you're all over the place in your desire to find a justification that there is no use for heavily built folders.

 

[Folderguy]

Lets be real, none of those knives were that sharp out of the box. You had to reprofile the edge and resharpen those knives to get it that way. So my point still stands.

PS. Great job on those edges. Looks razor sharp :thumbup:

I just got a brand new Cold Steel Black Rhino. It was friggin' shavin' sharp, right out of the box. Air Bleeding Sharp...

 

[Tostig]

There's a reason that a lot of old slipjoints have broken blades. Those knives got used for whatever the owner needed them for, even if the knife wasn't designed for it. I've cut down 2 inch saplings (sweetgum) with a small slipjoint because it was the only thing I had on me. I don't carry a fixed blade every time I go in the woods, but I always carry some sort of folder because they're easy to carry, and don't bite into your side when you're in a deerstand. They can be used to easily skin larger game. I have needed to cut things one-handed while climbing trees. That's not fantasy. I don't do that type of stuff everyday and I carry a slipjoint everyday, but there are more advantages for me to carry a larger folder when I'm not at work. If you don't like hard use knives go buy what you like. The reason I have several and sold most of my fixed blades is because I NEVER used my fixed blades, except for a few times a year. You can carry a folder and enjoy it much more often.

Yeap.

I refurb/sharpen/etc knives for most everyone I know that cares or has a small interest in knives , same goes for PC's.
Last year an old buddy who collects and sells Militaria for a living brought a few shoeboxes full of old slipjoints. A lot of them were in decent shape just needing a cleaning , a lot of them were FUBAR but what many of them had in common were broken blades. I'm talking OLD slipjoints from the 40's-50's-60's.
Sad , some had beautiful sclaes and were in otherwise great shape aside from a broken spey and main clip with a half moon sized chunk out of the tip , that kind of stuff.
A slipjoint I inhereted from my Grandpa Reynolds , all three blades are 'intact' but are sharpened down so much that the knife just looks odd.

The owners of those knives , God knows what they used them for , how many nails , screws , paint lids had been pried , unscrewed , and all that.

Those were some real, hard use knives from generations that knew true hardship.

Tostig - officially off his soapbox for now.

Tostig

 

[MikeC]

KGD, I'm not confusing anything you either can't comprehend what I wrote or misunderstood what I was trying to say.

 

[Boats]

I actually think that I may need all that "robustness" like I may need my glock and I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I like the reliability of my Glock although I may not use it everyday in the same way that I like my folder to have the capacity for hard use though I may not need it everyday as well. I don't want to have to use my cheese cutterD) folder hard when I need it to be hard use and look at a broken blade or my fingers on the floor.

I was just addressing the "fantasy" aspect that was in a previous post. So what if it's a fantasy? People do buy SUVs wherever they are.

As for looking the part, that's what Ankerson's videos are for. To find out if they just look the part or if they can take the heat.

And finally, you're all over the place in your desire to find a justification that there is no use for heavily built folders.

The only justification I need is that every "hard use" folder I have ever handled felt like crap in the hand. Rather like a Glock does actually.

 

[Hondo.3]

I think Ankerson hit the nail on the head. The current rend towards hard use knives has come from the hard use marketing strategy of CS.

I recently read a fun article on Cracked.com. It discusses the numerous failures of Nintendo, and connects them to current console gaming successes. If you will, CS whetted the public appetite for car-door-penetrating knives. To meet that demand, you have seen companies like Busse and Strider rise to meet the challenge, and offer a product that is more suited to the perforation of sheet metal.

TC

 

[singularity35]

The only justification I need is that every "hard use" folder I have ever handled felt like crap in the hand. Rather like a Glock does actually.

Well, it kinda feels like your tossing out reasons against hard use folders when it just seems you don't like them personally. And as I said before don't buy one because that's really all the reason you need. You don't have to justify to yourself why you and others don't need them.

Whatever floats your boat(pun intended).

 

[Steven Andrews]

I think the whole "hard use" folder concept is getting ridiculous.

I don't need or want my folding knife to be able to pry, chop, tell the time, write or make a cup of tea. I have the correct tools to accomplish those task.

What I want and sometimes need is a reliable lock that won't allow the blade to close on my fingers while I'm using my knife as a knife. Benchmade and Spyderco see most of my business.

 

[Ankerson]

I think the whole "hard use" folder concept is getting ridiculous.

I don't need or want my folding knife to be able to pry, chop, tell the time, write or make a cup of tea. I have the correct tools to accomplish those task.

What I want and sometimes need is a reliable lock that won't allow the blade to close on my fingers while I'm using my knife as a knife. Benchmade and Spyderco see most of my business.

A lot of us have all the tools needed for those tasks.

But I know I sure don't have them all in my pocket all the time and I sure don't take them all into the field with me when I go.

It's like people using their new (Insert knife here) in the kitchen when they have a drawer full of kitchen knives at arms reach.

Personally I don't use a knife when I have the correct tool at hand just like I never use my folders etc in the kitchen because I have plenty of knives for that purpose.

It's different opinions really everyone has them and or ideas etc.

Just because one person uses their (insert knife here) to clean their fingernails, open mail, posing for their buddies and sitting in front of the TV playing with it etc and that's really all the use it gets. That's doesn't mean that's what everyone in the world uses them for. Some people really do use their knives for more than a pocket ornament.

 

[Steven Andrews]

Some people really do use their knives for more than a pocket ornament.

Some people really do use their knives only as cutting instruments.

 

[Folderguy]

Some people really do use their knives for more than a pocket ornament.

Of course. That's why I sometimes carry three of them. A nice little CRKT Ripple 2 for all those little things, like cutting the caps off cigars, opening plastic wrappers, envelopes, the list goes on and on. In the back pocket, probably my Cold Steel Mini Lawman, appropriately pimped: grooves all over it, no clip, and the black stuff stripped from the blade. Same uses as the Ripple. And then, who knows, another one that's a bit larger... perhaps a Benchmade 930...

However, if I need to do some heavy duty stuff, well, everything changes, and I'm probably going to use a Zero Tolerance 300, or maybe a Cold Steel Black Rhino. There something awesome about those bigger knives. A fellow knife enthusiast said it well the other day upon seeing the Black Rhino, when he asked, " You really like overkill, don't you?" Sure do....

Folderguy

 

[Ankerson]

Of course. That's why I sometimes carry three of them. A nice little CRKT Ripple 2 for all those little things, like cutting the caps off cigars, opening plastic wrappers, envelopes, the list goes on and on. In the back pocket, probably my Cold Steel Mini Lawman, appropriately pimped: grooves all over it, no clip, and the black stuff stripped from the blade. Same uses as the Ripple. And then, who knows, another one that's a bit larger... perhaps a Benchmade 930...

However, if I need to do some heavy duty stuff, well, everything changes, and I'm probably going to use a Zero Tolerance 300, or maybe a Cold Steel Black Rhino. There something awesome about those bigger knives. A fellow knife enthusiast said it well the other day upon seeing the Black Rhino, when he asked, " You really like overkill, don't you?" Sure do....

Folderguy

Yep. :thumbup:

Like I said it's all about different opinions and likes and dislikes.

Wouldn't the world be boring if everyone thought the same?