Hollow grinding a U2 - need maker

[Cliff Stamp]

I highly doubt there would be any noticeable difference between a flat grind and an almost "hollow" grind

Here is an example of the style of grind :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/aj_utility.jpg

The brighter parts are the parts that contact the stone, the knives are basically lapp sharpened like puukkos.

The part in the middle is hollowed out, it runs basically at a zero degree incline from the edge.

That hollow keeps the edge significantly thinner and produces the 0.012-0.014 thickness at 1/4" back from the edge.

If you flat ground the same stock at the same distance it would be almost three times as thick.

-Cliff

 

[Gossman Knives]

A five gallon bucket and a washing machine motor.

-Cliff

unreal
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Actually serious, check rec.knives for the full details. That is why I never thought there would be any difficulty in getting it done. I don't think you could get more basic than Alvin's setup, no jigs or anything either, just hand ground. If you think his grinding setup is impressive, you should see what he uses for a drill press to drill the holes in the full hard HSS.

-Cliff

 

[Dan Gray]

Then again he does use some really high tech grinding equipment so maybe that is it.
-Cliff

then you say

A five gallon bucket and a washing machine motor.

-Cliff

so which is it?
I think he's your man Cliff for the grind..
.
just don't send him SS if he can't heat treat it right..that will fix the 1095
comparison problem .

 

[Chiro75]

He already has in 1095, O1 and M2, he just doesn't work in stainless usually.

Based on your criteria about what a custom knife maker should offer in terms of services, this sounds irrational to me.

 

[J.Wade]

hey Cliff
Why don't you just buy a knife that you like . Most makers I know, myself included wouldn't touch this project with a ten foot pole. No time and no desire to replace your knife when it doesn't turn out how you want it.

just my 2 cents.

jimi

 

[Cliff Stamp]

so which is it?

The first one was a joke.

just don't send him SS if he can't heat treat it right..that will fix the 1095 comparison problem .

He didn't, they were already hardened in most cases he was regrinding them as they didn't cut well enough. It wasn't just one knife, it was a bunch of them, it was discussed on rec.knives, Mike Swaim also compared one of his knives to a host of stainless as well, the performance was on Alvin's many times over.

Based on your criteria about what a custom knife maker should offer in terms of services, this sounds irrational to me.

No he has his reasons, mainly based on the materials properties of the steels, its all logical and rational. I discussed BG-42 at 64 HRC and S90V at 63+ HRC, and he was open. He was also planing on working with a huge number of blanks from Engath at one time, which would have been really interesting.

He also doesn't work for money, it is a hobby, so making demands on him for a gift he is giving you is kind of irrational. Plus he already made a bunch of knives for me to do edge work with and I was also curious to see what someone else would do with the grind.

I was optimally hoping for a maker experienced with grinding stainless at the same low profiles so they could suggest an optimal profile based on the above rough spec's. I am not even sure the U2 will function at that geometry it might just crack apart.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

No he has his reasons, mainly based on the materials properties of the steels, its all logical and rational. I discussed BG-42 at 64 HRC and S90V at 63+ HRC, and he was open.

Well, based on your other posts you mentioned that CUSTOM knifemakers who don't offer knives in a variety of steels are irrational. I guess you'll say that it isn't irrational when a knifemaker doesn't offer something for a good reason, although I think that the reason of "I just don't want to make such and such using such-and-such steel" is as rational an argument as you can make. Good luck with your project! If you take a piece of 220 grit sandpaper and run it down the middle o fthe knife 3 or 4 times it will probably give you the same convexity as the 2346" wheel.

 

[Dan Gray]

this is fun

The first one was a joke.

-Cliff

I would ask the man of great demand to walk in the steps of the other the demands are made upon,
to do the work asked of the other himself,
to know the trails of such work,
work with the steel that he wants,
for who knows if the work was done correctly if he don't make himself and have not gone through those trials himself.
I can send you a blade that will not work and say it will, saying it will won't make it so.
unless you are proficient in the steels you are working you can not compare them honestly, you've given us 3rd hand information and it's not the gospel.
a man with any amount of education or common cents would not use 3rd hand information or 2nd hand information for that matter
and would know better.

you say He is just a hobby class maker, but, that is what you say,
I don't know the guy..
enough said there.
just my opinion

 

[Gossman Knives]

Cliff you say doing this may just cause the blade to break apart. Sooo, what's the purpose of this anyway? I would say find a maker who's willing to make said blade out of your choice of steel, pay him for his time and work and then do your testing. Most of the makers here don't work for free so even if you find one willing to regrind the U2, it's going to cost something. Most are swamped with orders and they are scambling to get ready for the Blade show. Good luck with your project.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff you say doing this may just cause the blade to break apart. Sooo, what's the purpose of this anyway?

To see if it would and thus put a limit on the functional scope of work of the steel. If it didn't I'd have a knife which cut significantly better than it does now, if it breaks apart then I'll at least know what the steel can take and that information is worth the knife to me.

you say He is just a hobby class maker, but, that is what you say

No, it is how he describes himself, you can check on rec.knives, all of the above I posted (spec's, washing machine motor) you can find the direct quotes on the usenet group, you can just google it. You can even email him and ask directly, just email me and I'll give you his email address.

Well, based on your other posts you mentioned that CUSTOM knifemakers who don't offer knives in a variety of steels are irrational.

No, specifically I said that if you the customer, limit yourself to the default choices of the steels of a custom knifemaker on a knife you are ordering simply because they were the default choices that is irrational.

If you of course have a reason for wanting that steel it isn't irrational, maybe it has the performance specifications that you want. I also described several reasons why a knifemaker would limit themselves to various steels, usually monetary. Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345515

So for example Alvin usually works with 1095, it is his defaul steel, however when discussing steels and edge performance, geometry and such, I discussed many steels with him, high REX, various stainless etc., because to limit myself to just 1095 because it is what he usually works with would be irrational.

Now if you suggest something and the maker responds with, yeah that's nice but I can't actually heat treat that, then again, perfectly rational for him not to use it, he has a reason. If he responds, no I can't use that steel because it interfers with the reception of the aliens who are broadcasting the secret of the caramilk bars into my fillings - not rational.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

If he responds, no I can't use that steel because it interfers with the reception of the aliens who are broadcasting the secret of the caramilk bars into my fillings - not rational.

Not as irrational as chopping up concrete blocks with a knife, though! I was under the distinct impression that you called a knifemaker's choice to limit the production of a tool to S30V and titanium as being irrational when you said:

It is a custom piece, any option should be immediate unless as noted there is an irrational attachment to the base choices. I have never seen a custom knife maker refuse to workout outside of the standard and I usually go well outside their starting options, often suggesting steels no one has used before.

Sounds to me like you were stating that the maker may have had an irrational attachment to the base choices, but I'm sure you have some explanation of minute details in grammar which will allow you to backpedal.

Also, here is where you mention that custom knifemakers ought to work in a variety of steels, so there's a double standard when it comes to your friend Alvin, who evidently won't do your project for you:

I recently discussed a knife with a maker, they offered me a selection of standard lengths and steels and I chose something different, most of my custom pieces are like this, often with new steels almost always with different geometries. They are custom knifemakers, that is what the word custom means.

Besides, if Alvin will do it for free why are we even having this discussion? Oh, wait, not discussing the rationality or irrationality of a topic about an irrational or possibly rational modification of a knife that could result in its destruction (rational or irrational?) would be irrational. I forgot!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I was under the distinct impression that you called a knifemaker's choice to limit the production of a tool to S30V and titanium as being irrational

No, that it was irrational as a user to limit yourself to the default choices for a custom piece simply because they were the default. It is the reasoning that is rational or irrational, not the choice itself.

...so there's a double standard when it comes to your friend Alvin, who evidently won't do your project for you

No, he probably would if I asked, as noted in the above I have several reasons for looking for other makers. Plus you don't put the same demands on someone doing you a favor as someone you are paying for a job.

If I actually ordered a knife from Alvin I'd expect him to make the knife as I wanted, if he is making a gift, well that's different. You make suggestions in such cases of course, but it should be obvious they are not the same situation - well they are not here anyway.

For example if someone was giving me a load of wood I would take it however they were bring it, and appreciate what ever the quality. However if I was buying a load of wood I would specify seasoned wood as you can't burn it fresh.

-Cliff

 

[Tom Buchanan]

uhhhh....yeah. i have a wood burning stove,can i get in here? p.s. didnt need it today though, 90 degrees.is this rational or irrational?

 

[Dan Gray]

For example if someone was giving me a load of wood I would take it however they were bring it, and appreciate what ever the quality. However if I was buying a load of wood I would specify seasoned wood as you can't burn it fresh.

-Cliff

sure you can,,, it's done all the time. you just clean your chimney out more often



you said he was a hobby class maker, not me..
and it's still 2nd hand info. as far as 1095 vs. SS you can't compare your info using that info.

cliff why are you editing your above posts?

all you said and was said is invalid now...
if you don't like what's said just change the questions right
On to the next thread...when you get this simple job done can you sent it to me to look it over..? I won't distroy it and I'll pay the shipping.
please talk your buddy into it. you are paying for it anyway why not pay him,,he does it all the time anyway you said..it sould be a breeze
a friend would pay him something to do it too..I would. then you can feel good about it. and will be happy

 

[Cliff Stamp]

sure you can,,, it's done all the time. you just clean your chimney out more often

It produces little heat, especially with the woods we have, maybe cedar would burn well wet, spruce and pine just smoulder, you can see the water boiling out of them. You can put them in an inch+ bed of red coals and they will not burn, even if you open the draft full, they just hiss.

The only way to get them to burn effectively is to split them up a lot to get the surface area up, but sensibly you just dry them out right next to the stove. Even a day or two of such concentrated drying makes a difference, a week makes them half decent.

If all you have is wet though it takes a while to get the stove going, plus it is just wasteful, you use much more wood trying to get the same amount of heat, and it takes much more physical work to do it. So if I was buying wood I would get it seasoned, and which is why most people cutting wood have 1-2 years cut down.

There is a balance though, pine which is fully seasoned is blasty and burns like cardboard, spruce is better, birch and oak more so, but there is little to none of that here.

...it's still 2nd hand info. as far as 1095 vs. SS

Yeah, I have no reason to doubt Alvin though. It isn't like he is selling anything. He just makes what gives the best performance. I really don't see why Mike would make up stuff to support him. Plus it correlates well with what I have seen in regards to edge retention and what I have discussed with Wilson. Plus he would be kind of mental to make it all up and then send his knives out, of course it could all be a mass conspiracy.

cliff why are you editing your above posts?

I left out the drill press bit. The post was :

"Actually serious, check rec.knives for the full details."

I added the followup about the drill press in an edit instead of making a new post. I also correct spelling mistakes constantly as I had to do to this one.

can you sent it to me to look it over..?

Sure. If you just want to look at it and not cut with it I can send it to you before I use it because as noted I am not sure of what it will do in that profile so it may break while I am figuring that out.

I was concerned I was going to break the paring knife Alvin made when I was using it as a general utility knife, it turned out to be a lot more durable than I expected. No real concerns cutting wise, outside of metals or bone.

The most important thing is no leveraging or twisting of the blade when it is in something on a partial cut. For general utility you also want to watch inclusions, heavy staples and such.

-Cliff

 

[blgoode]

fun stuff

Like I said Dan

 

[howiesatwork]

If you do get a blade of SGPS ground like the paring knife in your example, it will gain in flexibility.
No increase in edge holding, and a more fragile edge are some drawbacks.
As the laminations will likely be completely ground off, the resulting blade remnant will have an overall hardness increase though the width of the blade.
If you wish to do this for your own edification, do so.
It will prove nothing for the properties of the laminated blade steel.
A better test of the steel would be to get a thinner laminate of the sameblade steels, grind and then heat-treat it.
This would be a more valid test of the steel's performance.

 

[Dan Gray]

no body in their right mind would burn soft wood around here.
I see your problem there is no heat in it wet or dry soft wood..
oak
now that is a hot wood.

I want to see the blade that thin, with a constant grind and the heat treat not messed up.

I will guaranty that 154cm done right will have much better edge retention than 1095 so that's my word on that with 32 years backing that up
I started heat treating my own high carbons in 1976 as a tool and die maker. now you don't have any reason to doubt me right?

 

[Bill_H]

Hey Dan,

You might want to take Cliff up on that (sending you the knife). I've known Alvin for many years through rec.knives and private email. I may even get to visit him when I'm in AZ next August (taking my youngest off to start college). You won't be impressed by the looks of most of his knives, but they do cut very well and for much longer than most.

Alvin is retired and his major hobby is attempting to make the ultimate cutting tool. He's into very sharp and extreme edge holding, not knives that will chop 2x4's or dig holes; and definitely not prybars. For the last few years he's been experimenting with full-hard HSS. Alvin doesn't sell knives, he only gives them away - but the price is feedback, you have to promise him you'll get back to him with how the knife worked for you and what was good and bad about it. He's not interested in making money, just the best cutting tools he can create. He doesn't go for polished pretty blades and exotic handles, only performance. He has many friends who are "real cowboys" and a few butchers, they get most of his knives. They use them hard and that's all he wants. He's mainly interested in tool steels but thinks some of the new particle metal stainless steels show promise and wants to play with them. He does heat treating but not forging.

I've seen pics of his grinding setup, he likes the bucket because it puts the wheel at just the right height for him to rest his arms on his knees to keep them steady. To get his wheels balanced so they are vibration-free, he will use shims as thin as a piece of telephone book paper.

Take a guy who is reasonably intelligent, mechanically inclined, and extremely stubborn. Then give him a box of metallurgy textbooks, no interest in making a profit, and plenty of time, and after many years the result is blades like Cliff is discussing.

Let me stress this - These are not the kind of knives a professional knifemaker would create for sale, they'll probably snap under slight abuse and the cosmetics of the parts that do not touch your hands or the material being cut is secondary. But they are a serious attempt at researching the best possible tools for only one purpose: cutting. Don't compare them to the knives you guys make - you have to warranty yours against breakage under reasonable use, worry about rust, and make them pretty enough to get a price that you can live on. Alvin's theory is that a bent blade is no more (and possibly of less) use than a broken one - so he'll go for hardness, rust isn't a problem in Arizona, and his payment is knowing he's gone one step further.


edit to add: Wow! you guys type fast.. 3 new posts in the time it took me to type just one.