Hollow grinding a U2 - need maker

[Trace Rinaldi]

Cliff you invest so much time and energy in knives, why not just buy a decent grinder and learn to do it yourself?

 

[S.Shepherd]

Cliff you invest so much time and energy in knives, why not just buy a decent grinder and learn to do it yourself?

Because it's alot easier to tell people how to do things "in theory" than do it yourself

 

[Gossman Knives]

Cliff you invest so much time and energy in knives, why not just buy a decent grinder and learn to do it yourself?

Because buying decent equipment and supplies is costly. I just don't understand the logic behind all your theroies Cliff. Why take a perfectly well made knife and change it? I agree with Trace, it seems you have alot of ideas rolling around in your head. With your knowledge of knives you could do what you want yourself
Scott

 

[Dan Gray]

I think Cliff is a closet knife maker and pulling our legs
come on out Cliff , join the world of making and show us a thing or three.

Cliff you can test the knife you want on soft fire brick it would look impressive at least.
When can you send me the knife to look over,??
I'm very interested in seeing it and take the mic's to it..

Bill I don't have a problem with Alvin, it sounds like fun what he's doing.
I've always maintained the right tool for the right job, and many different
blade styles are needed to handle this.
you shave with a razor but don't chop wood with it.
but you can chop wood with one of mine and shave with it
but I still use the razor in the morning.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Dan I haven't shaved since 1987 so I can't say that about my knives.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Why take a perfectly well made knife and change it?

Because it isn't perfect for what I want it to do and the grind adjustment might improve it, plus it would produce information about the grind regardless.

Cliff you invest so much time and energy in knives,

Because I only have so much time and I would rather spend it using the knives than making them. I have reground a lot of knives, I enjoy using them more than altering them. I take the money I make and give it to the guys doing what they enjoy so I have time to do what I enjoy, makes more sense to me that way. Plus you learn a lot working with experienced makers like Wilson, Johnson, Cashen, etc., who are essentially experimentalists at heart.

..why not just buy a decent grinder

Because it is hardly sensible to buy a hollow grinder to adjust this one knife. If I had a near constant demand for such modifications like I do with flat and convex edges then I would have picked up a wet wheel grinder years ago when I got a belt sander.

I will guaranty that 154cm done right will have much better edge retention than 1095

At what hardness in what edge profile? Alvin compared standard ATS-34 at ~60 HRC to full hard 1095 in profiles mentioned in the above with the ATS-34 heat treated by Paul Bos. The comparisons were not done by him always either, as noted they were by many friends who were working tradesmen, who could not care either way which knife worked best.

When can you send me the knife to look over,??

When it is done.

If you do get a blade of SGPS ground like the paring knife in your example, it will gain in flexibility.
No increase in edge holding, and a more fragile edge are some drawbacks.

The edge holding will be less in some respects because the durability is a lot less, however for the materials I mentioned it isn't a factor on tool steels as the functional limit for the durablity is really low. The lifetime of the cutting ability will be likely greatly increased as the baseline cutting performance should increase significantly, plus it gains in ease of sharpening.

It will prove nothing for the properties of the laminated blade steel.

The edge is all core steel anyway, there is no gain in laminating a blade this small anyway (aside from cosmetic surface corrosion), it is mainly manufacturer cost which is the reason the Japanese do it for such blades, or did it origionally anyway.

There are reasons for laminating big blades, flexibility, impact toughness and so on. For small blades the only real reason is ease of sharpening as it is easier to hog metal off the side laminate, but assuming optimal sharpening technique with secondary bevels this isn't a real issue.

It has its benefit in chisels and the like, which also run hollow grinds to further improve ease of sharpening.

The main reason I looked to get this one done is simply because it would work better with the new profile if the steel can hold it. However the core steel is actually fairly optimal for a stainless, the laminate doesn't matter as it won't be there anyway with the new profile.

[Alvin]

I'm not all that impressed with his knives.

What ones have you used, in what way did they fail to perform as described?

-Cliff

 

[rhrocker]

I think Cliff is one of us. Notice that he doesn't get ruffled with the questions, but only makes statments back. Not sure what's going on here, but I'm rather enjoying watching you guys joust back and forth.

 

[Dan Gray]

I think Cliff is one of us. Notice that he doesn't get ruffled with the questions, but only makes statments back. Not sure what's going on here, but I'm rather enjoying watching you guys joust back and forth.

poke poke poke DaQotah who?

BTW 1095 full hard is too hard to keep an edge

 

[Gossman Knives]

I think Cliff is one of us. Notice that he doesn't get ruffled with the questions, but only makes statments back. Not sure what's going on here, but I'm rather enjoying watching you guys joust back and forth.

And you know what, it will continue to do so with nothing accomplished.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Found a maker, no problems, will be done sometime after Blade, no rush, told the maker to get around to it when he can.

1095 full hard is too hard to keep an edge

What are you cutting, and how did you harden it?

-Cliff

 

[Dan Gray]

Found a maker, no problems, will be done sometime after Blade, no rush, told the maker to get around to it when he can.
-Cliff

Cliff ... who's doing it?

What are you cutting, and how did you harden it?
-Cliff

in house H/T and add in house cryo for the SS

so when will I get it?

 

[c.m. arrington]

If you reforged the blade with really wide fullers, wouldn't it be superior to just grinding them? This is just too fun...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff ... who's doing it?

I could tell you but then you would have to be screeched in. As for time frame, assume a couple of weeks after blade, then a couple of weeks for the mail to reach me, then a couple of weeks for it to reach you.

in house H/T

Details? And what material did you cut with so that the 1095 blade showed poor edge retention, and by what method of edge failure did it blunt?

If you reforged the blade with really wide fullers, wouldn't it be superior to just grinding them?

Try it, I'll send you the modified U2 and you can let us know how they compare.

I am pretty sure Thom would send you his U2 if you would forge a couple of fullers on it.

It would be pretty impressive work to forge a blade this size, out of laminates, in these steels, at that thickness.

Hell I'll send you mine and I'll have his reground. Just let me know.

-Cliff

 

[c.m. arrington]

A free knife? Thanks Cliff, you are the man ! But back to my question, wouldn't the forged one be far superior to the ground one?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

wouldn't the forged one be far superior to the ground one?

They would cut the same as they would be the same geometry, the edge retention, durabilty and so on would depend on how you heat treated it after you forged it.

-Cliff

 

[howiesatwork]

Actually, it wouldn't be the same.
After heating up the laminate and beating a fuller into it, the steel will have different properties.
Forging in a fuller does not strengthen a blade. It effectively lightens a blade without removing metal.
Now after putting the fuller in, the blade will be wider, and possibly longer.
Grind this excess off to arrive at the same profiles, then heat-treat (again, as it had to be normalized, heated and forged before rehardening and retempering), but waitaminit...
You don't have the means to do this.
Need the specs the blade was heat treated to by the manufacturer initially.
I don't see it available.
Anyway, all in all, there will be carbon loss in all this, so the steel will be different, and the heat-treat cannot be duplicated, so a comparison cannot be made at this point in time...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Actually, it wouldn't be the same.

The cutting ability would assuming they are the same shape you can of course forge it to a different shape, but c.m. stated :

"If you reforged the blade with really wide fullers, wouldn't it be superior to just grinding them?"

implies they are the same shape.

The result of the forging in regards to steel properties would depend on how it was heat treated after it was shaped as noted. If you wanted to duplicate the factory spec's then ask them for it.

This isn't the real issue though which would be actually hammer forging this class of high carbon, high alloy laminate to a thickness of 0.005".

Forging in a fuller does not strengthen a blade. It effectively lightens a blade without removing metal.

If it doesn't remove metal it doesn't get lighter.

-Cliff

 

[Dan Gray]

I could tell you but then you would have to be screeched in. As for time frame, assume a couple of weeks after blade, then a couple of weeks for the mail to reach me, then a couple of weeks for it to reach you.
-Cliff

screeched in ?? sounds like a secret to me..
cliff that's by pony express
why so slow?

Details? And what material did you cut with so that the 1095 blade showed poor edge retention, and by what method of edge failure did it blunt?
-Cliff

on many deer, both field dressing and working them right up to the meat grinder. and the word of many customers.
isn't that what they are for?
I took one of each and cut the head and legs of with just the knives and the 154 CM had no problems the 1095 blade
dulled some and had a little chipping, to hard Rock but still dulled... you can't have it work right at full hard..
that fine edge will brake off..unless you burn it while sharpening it some how..

 

[S.Shepherd]

..............come on Dan, we all know the only worthy test medium for a knife is cinder block.....

 

[Dan Gray]

..............come on Dan, we all know the only worthy test medium for a knife is cinder block.....

that would create them all equal