How brittle is D2?

How about locking this thread down??

It is no longer about the original subject. It is now about C.Stamp......


Tom
 
Tom Krein: I hope there in no need to lock it down. I have seen some valuable statements posted about this issue and I have learned from users of D2 and makers on this subject. I would like to test D2 and see how it compares to the other steels I have tested. I know some of you don't like my tests and this is fine with me. I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.

I have tested many knives now and I have a better understanding of what to look for when I test. So I hope to shed some light on this issue to the best of my abilities and bring it into the friendly debate.
 
Noss4,
I don't have a problem with the thread staying open IF it gets back on track....

If we are going to just have a bash/defend Cliff thread, whats the use??

Tom
 
Rather than locking down, just deleting the off topic (or splitting them into a different thread some where) would be nice.

I don't understand all the details on steels, but I am trying to learn.
 
Tom Krein said:
Noss4,
I don't have a problem with the thread staying open IF it gets back on track....

If we are going to just have a bash/defend Cliff thread, whats the use??

Tom
Click to expand...

db asked you about your thoughts on M4, I think.

Any observations?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
One or two off topic posts have always been tolerated before.

Noss I like your tests fine. Its the mask that gets me but its just me I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with the tests that I see.

D2 is a good fun steel to test and I really like cutting with it personally. I noted early on that it can shine back quite a bit of reflection on the edge after cutting old carpet but it kept cutting it fine even then. So big deal.

Hemp rope was similar. It would even get to where it looked like it should no longer cut that well but yet it cut it and kept going. Thats what I think people see about it and like when they use it. Its not rocket science it just keeps cutting and works. Plain and simple just like most of the folks using it. A good ole boy cleaning his deer doesn't much care about much else. Does it work or not? In the end thats all that really matters to most end line users.


STR
 
STR- tell me if I'm wrong, I respect your opinions (among others) on blades. D2 isn't brittle in the context of this thread. It's commonly tempered harder than many of the steels used in production blades, at 60 Rc or more to take advantage of the superior cutting properties. It doesn't take a mirror shine to sparkle in the display case and is a bit hard on production tooling- if fact, it's used a lot in industry FOR production tooling.

Temper some of the popular production stainless steels at 60 or above and they would soon be branded brittle as well. It is superior as a long lasting cutting edge with good corrosion resistance. It would, in fact, be just as corrosion resistant as some stainless rated steels if not for the 1.5% carbon content that gives it such good cutting properties. All the discussion is great, it's just that the minutia gets in the way of a rational conclusion. :) regards, ss.
 
Tom Krein: I agree.. It's up to the people here if they want to keep it on track.

The subject here is D2 brittle ? Not Cliff Stamp.
 
STR: I no longer wear the hockey mask.. I hope this helps. :)

I have a question about why you feel D2 is best suited for a knife blade under the five inch range. ? as you stated in an earlier post.
 
straitshot said:
STR- tell me if I'm wrong, I respect your opinions (among others) on blades. D2 isn't brittle in the context of this thread. It's commonly tempered harder than many of the steels used in production blades, at 60 Rc or more to take advantage of the superior cutting properties. It doesn't take a mirror shine to sparkle in the display case and is a bit hard on production tooling- if fact, it's used a lot in industry FOR production tooling.

Temper some of the popular production stainless steels at 60 or above and they would soon be branded brittle as well. It is superior as a long lasting cutting edge with good corrosion resistance. It would, in fact, be just as corrosion resistant as some stainless rated steels if not for the 1.5% carbon content that gives it such good cutting properties. All the discussion is great, it's just that the minutia gets in the way of a rational conclusion. :) regards, ss.
Click to expand...

You know I bought a D2 blade the other day primarily because the maker, Butcher_Block got the blade so polished it looked as close to mirror polished D2 as I've ever seen. I was looking for a present for my son on his birthday the 13th anyway, and figured it was worth using that as an excuse just to see this blade Rich did. Plus I like him anyways and wanted to throw some support his way.

But I've heard that you can't get it polished much more than a brushed look. But truthfully I like that about it. I don't much care for seeing finger prints on blades that much.

I can only speak of my practical experience. I've repointed a lot of D2 blades (almost always thin field knives) and here in the last few years S30V has taken the lead though. I see a few of those. Saw a lot of Yojimbos broken that needed repointed.

It is all I've ever seen and the only part of the blade made of D2 I'd ever call brittle and only then because its so thin. Otherwise I find the steel to be plenty tough. I like Bob Dozier's work, think the world of his knives and have owned more of his than any other custom makers. So obviously I've been a fan of D2 for a long while. I've never broken but one of my own. They all get used. Some of the ones I've owned from Knives of Alaska were 58 Rockwell not 61-62. I didn't have a problem with them with breaks but my brother did break one of the points on his that needed redone. I did not think the Knives of Alaska D2 kept up with Bob's at all. My brother thought that also.

STR
 
Tom Krein,

That horrible saying about D2 is sorta true if you look at sharpness as not only the alignment and finish of the edge, but also its total included angle. That is, a spooky mirror-finished edge that's 8 degrees (4 per side) will be sharper than a 30 degree edge (15 per side) with the same level of finish and alignment.

Now that said, there are maybe 400 people on the planet who care about that sort of edge, nine of which post on the internet, and only three still post here. And with that said, having a knife with a 10 degree edge is the bizallz, but it gets overrated when you're slicing a bell pepper and it wedges in the stem and you have to get all of your food prep done in under 10 minutes or else risk rust (less time for acidic fruits like pineapple) and you can't use a plastic cutting board sheet or else you'll chip the blade.... Wouldn't want to think how it'd do on a hunting trip. :eek:

A very cultishly popular* chefs knife these days uses Hitachi's SKD-11 as its edge steel. SKD-11 is Hitachi's name for D2.

*= Not Shun/Henckels/Wusthoff popular - more 'obscure great movies' popular
 
noss4 said:
STR: I no longer wear the hockey mask.. I hope this helps. :)

I have a question about why you feel D2 is best suited for a knife blade under the five inch range. ? as you stated in an earlier post.
Click to expand...

For pretty much the same reasons as Tom stated earlier. After that 5" blade length I'm more likely to do tree branch lopping and chopping fish and other things that its probably not the best choice for in a D2 slicer. Its more of a self limitation because I know how I'd use it if the blade was long enough and the handle had ample grip. I bought a Camp Tramp for that chopping stuff and branch cutting or even other such heavier tasks. I use that blade in my lockback in my signiture that is a D2 Sweetwater blade like any fixed bird and trout all the time. It cleaned a mess of fish not long ago actually because I just grew used to using what you have. In West Virginia when I grew up it was a 'use what you have and roll your own kind of world' and thats how we lived. :D

As a result of that I tend to use whatever is on me rather than walk back to the car to get it. I'll use my pocket knife for things that would make most people cringe. I got a new knife tonight in the mail and before I even looked it over good I had it out using it to pop holes in the bottom of a can of chilli we wanted out that wouldn't move. Few air holes in the bottom did wonders. It wasn't D2!:thumbup:
STR
 
db said:
It's my opinion anyone who posts or implies D2 is any less than a great cutlery steel knows nothing about cutlery or steel.
I don't need any references to prove that,. Just use one.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I'd have to agree. :D

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest because I want to learn as much as I can. I am no fountain of wisdom when it comes to that steel versus this steel. I'm willing to bet most readers of these type of threads are very much like me in that respect. I can only speak from my personal experience with D2 steel. (RAT-7 and RAT-3) I very much like its edge retention and I like its cutting/chopping capabilities. I have zero problem resharpening when needed.

While the science is very nice to know....why argue about it? :confused:

I also am a big fan of S30V. Microtech's....
AUS8 ....CRKT knifes.....
1095...my KA-BAR....(HEY! They make a D2 version...did not know that)



Present the science and leave the ego's at the door....some of us really do want to learn....

STR said:
For pretty much the same reasons as Tom stated earlier. After that 5" blade length I'm more likely to do tree branch lopping and chopping fish and other things that its probably not the best choice for in a D2 slicer. Its more of a self limitation because I know how I'd use it if the blade was long enough and the handle had ample grip. I bought a Camp Tramp for that chopping stuff and branch cutting or even other such heavier tasks. I use that blade in my lockback in my signiture that is a D2 Sweetwater blade like any fixed bird and trout all the time. It cleaned a mess of fish not long ago actually because I just grew used to using what you have. In West Virginia when I grew up it was a 'use what you have and roll your own kind of world' and thats how we lived. :D

As a result of that I tend to use whatever is on me rather than walk back to the car to get it. I'll use my pocket knife for things that would make most people cringe. I got a new knife tonight in the mail and before I even looked it over good I had it out using it to pop holes in the bottom of a can of chilli we wanted out that wouldn't move. Few air holes in the bottom did wonders. It wasn't D2!:thumbup:
STR
Click to expand...

STR,

So if I understand you correctly...the RAT-3 I own is a good design for D2 Steel but the RAT-7 not so much? I have used the RAT-7 for chopping and it has worked well. I use DMT Dia-sharp sharpeners to keep my knives in shape if that matters. Maybe I'm much more "gentle" on my knifes but I have keep a small G.I can opener in my ditty for stubborn cans. hehe
 
STR: Okay, I understand. Thanks for the reply. Always fun to get a new knife in the mail. I'm glad it passed the getting the chilli out of the can test :D :thumbup:
 
Looks like we are going back to the original intent of this thread.
In my experience, D2 is a very nice steel, and not brittle in my opinion. I have EDCed a 710D2 at work for a while, and experienced no breakage, chipping, etc. I cut a lot of cardboard with it, and hit some staples. The D2 seems to cut into the staples a little, and not wreck the edge at all. I had a RAT-3 in D2 that I chopped (slashed and pried as well because it is a small knife) some small trees down with, no edge roll or even dulling.
D2 has been the "super steel" that has been used in knives for decades. It is not perfect, but it is tried and true. It is used in the tool and die industry quite a bit because of it's toughness and high attainable hardness.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Crucible Metals just ran a small run of CPMD2 which is powder made D2, in an attempt to reduce carbide size. Spyderco made something like 6000 Military's in CPMD2 (I have one!). CPM will not produce anymore CPMD2 due to the wear it causes their machines.
 
I’m keeping this as brief as I dare due to a butt load of rum, but feel the need to comment. Always not a good idea. No afense intended.
shecky said:
You gotta be kidding. Cliff is one of the few willing and able to speak honestly regardless of the prevailing winds blowing around
here. Without the likes of him around, bladeforums is reduced to the credibility of a sci-fi convention,
Click to expand...
Are you for real? I’ve found that most everyone honestly posts their true opinions and experiences. Heck if anyone is the one with an agenda it’s our friend Cliff. This is by far the largest forum and it is pretty fair to everyone and their opinions. Truthfully I’m not happy to see anyone banned but I’m surprised it hasn’t happened sooner with some of what Cliff has posted in the past. Heck I was pretty surprised he wasn’t banned back when he was removed as the moderator of this sub forum.
shecky said:
db said quantifiable data is unnecessary. How do you argue against that? Things like personal and professional experience are fine
Click to expand...
I did? Please enlighten me where did I say that. Are you also implying that personal and professional experience isn’t quantifiable? I like D2 it is great cutlery steel and it has quantifiably proven itself to me by my use of it and experiences with it.
 
D-2 is one of my favorite steels used for knifemaking. I have never had it break or chip. I do not find it hard to sharpen. If I am getting a big chopper, I pick a different steel, but for every day use, it is a fine choice.
 
STR,

So if I understand you correctly...the RAT-3 I own is a good design for D2 Steel but the RAT-7 not so much? I have used the RAT-7 for chopping and it has worked well. I use DMT Dia-sharp sharpeners to keep my knives in shape if that matters. Maybe I'm much more "gentle" on my knifes but I have keep a small G.I can opener in my ditty for stubborn cans. hehe
Click to expand...

I don't know a Rat 3 from a 7 so I can't really comment on that but I am not suggesting that what is good for me is good for you my friend. Some guys are going to be very hard on anything. I have a friend like that. If I put new strings on my guitar and he dropped by and played with it I could tell you without knowing that someone had played it because of the tarnish marks and I'd probably even be able to guess who played it too!

We always use a diamond sharpener to touch up our knives at the deer camps too. Nice to have and I like em a lot. I even made one to work on my Edge Pro.

Yeah, Its like I said on the can thing with the Chili. Use what you have and roll your own. You have to understand the drawer with the right tool was ten paces away and that new knife was right there in front of me. :D

I like D2 a lot and use it a lot. I've said things about it that I don't want to come back to haunt the steel. Its not like there is much to worry about with it. A delicate point is a delicate point I think. I mean look at this pic in this link. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61490&d=1161465336

S30V got a bad rap for this as I recall. But in defense of the steel, would D2 fair any better in a delicate tip like this? I doubt it. What about 154CM or ATS34 or VG10 even if heat treat and all that was optimal or thought to be? Doubt it. A delicate tip is just that.

Some steels may bend rather than break. Now maybe one of the wiser than I can tell us what steel might actually be able to take a grind like this and not be so prone to breaking and what hardness or other details. I'd like to know! CPM3V maybe?? Maybe realistically none are exempt at any heat treat or hardness but some will be better choices than others in one profile or geometry over another, some wear many hats, some just a few. D2 seems to be ideal as a great aggressive slicer in the field with some limited uses as a lighter duty chopper if done correctly for thickness and heat treat. But again many can argue there are better choices.

I don't know enough to tell you more. But that pic is how I would see a lot of blades that were mailed to me. Many started out like, "I didn't want to post this on the forums because I feared a stern reprimand and I know its not a warranty call so can you put a point back on this?" And usually I could but some had some metal missing too!

STR
 
I don't know how bad D2 is supposed to be for a chopper but I once cut down 5 small trees with my Ka-bar d2 extreme without any problems.It has a blade 7" long.It performed so well I wouldn't hesitate to use it again if the need arises.
 
STR said:
I don't know a Rat 3 from a 7 so I can't really comment on that but I am not suggesting that what is good for me is good for you my friend.
STR
Click to expand...

Sorry....assumed you knew what they were....

http://www.ontariorat.com/

A Ontario RAT-3 is their 3 3/8" blade...their RAT-7 is the larger of the two with a 6.5" blade. I believe the statement was made that D2 was better for knives under 7 inches or so. Both have good tips and no where near the fragile design as the blade you illustrated.
 
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