How I got a 2010 Forum Moose/A review of Queen Cutlery

[Will Power]

The review is significant and for the long-term health of the US cutlery industry, it's important to tell it how it is.

Those flaws would annoy me alright, one wants to have pride in ownership not resignation to an inferor product that doesn't just cost change either.

My Forum 2010 knife pleases me immensely, I'm very taken with it and have a lot of pride in owning it. A very small gap in the liners but no issues here which offend me. It's well ground, monster snap and super finish on the handles. And, there aren't too many around Bliss!

I have to admit I had my apprehensions before getting it though, based on a rather miserable litany of errors from some Queen and particularly Schatt knives. I have 6 Schatt knives and only the Series I Barehead Trapper from 1991... is up to standard. The Premier English Jack has a lot of blade wobble, ditto the 2007 Horticultural knife-I mean a lot, the 2005 Half Whittler looks nice but the spring is so crude and raised in open that it's unpleasant to hold, The 2008 Large Jack has similar spring issues(which I tried to correct and damaged the knife)plus considerable wobble. Actually, no other production knives have these rates of flaws, I won't buy another. As for Queen itself, my Amber Bone Teardop,Muskrat and Serp Jack are SUPERB knives,beautifully executed a joy to see and use. A BEM Teardrop was utter rubbish: nail nick so low you can barely open it, blade edge chipped,shield had glue stains around it, blade play and a rough raised spring. A Zebrawood Teardrop which i gaveaway also had a raised spring,very rough. Finally, I recently got a QCCC Teardrop in Green Bone which I had been after for ages_ had to wait even longer as the seller first of all sent me an English Jack by mistake that was badly gap ridden and blade play. When the Teardrop arrived, I was impressed by the dimensions and blade shape BUT this too has far too many gaps, very very poorly matching scales and worst of all, while mounting the shield somedody had slipped and gouged a smooth section of the jigging clean off! OK it's a user but it was a brand new knife that looked shabby. Moreover, it's supposed to be from a line of knives that Queen sells as superior, that it aint:grumpy:

When Flymopn returned his knife he should have been given a replacement or a proper re-fit. When he was not pleased with the response-who would've been??-he should have got a Moose and the other knife that were inspected REALLY CAREFULLY by Queen so that no errors would be there. That crack by the pin isnt going to get better I'm sure... They slipped up again it seems and this sends out a depressing and distresing message to those of us that admire and like Queen Cutlery. I really suspect it is not shoddy workmanship or incompetent management, I fear their equipment and machine tools are so old,worn and unreliable that they cannot sustain quality at a consistent and acceptable level. I truly hope I am wrong and that my experiences have been extreme, because they can sometimes make a stunningly beautiful knife with authetic tradition behind it. That's what it's all about isn't it?

 

[Seals]

I wish i had either one.They look fantastic to me!You're a very lucky guy.The little crack might bother me,but a tiny drop of ca followed by sandpaper while its still wet would make it go byebye. I do agree that Queen has some quality issues.They may have layed off a QC guy that needs to come back.

 

[abcdef]

My S&M F&W long toothpick (2010, ats-34) has uneven grinds, backspring gaps and an off centered blade. Last queen I own.

As a slight digression, the 2008 BF Northwoods stag stockman is hands down the worst knife I have ever owned. The faults are too numerous to list.

It is counter intuitive, but from the comments I have gleaned over time, it seems the manufacturers try to shoot themselves in the foot when they get an order from BF. It's as if they think - we already have the money, so we don't give a dang what type of product goes out. Or, they just don't think at all.

And that is why I have only one BF knife.

 

[Modoc ED]

Well, I gotta say that I'm surprised and a bit disappointed at the response of some of you guys about the flaws in the knives Flymon (Stu) has posted about. One of you said the gap in the first knife was acceptable to you. Huh?? It was wide enough to take a picture of a computer through. Another of you said the nick on the first knife wasn't bad. Huh?? It was definitely off. That blade should have been discarded and never assembled onto a knife.

No wonder Queen and perhaps other knife companies aren't worried about sending out knives with obvious flaws when they read a thread like this (and they do log onto Blade Forums at times) that has many people saying these flaws are okey-dokey as far as they are concerned.

After sleeping on it and looking at Stu's 2010 knife again this morning, I believe that is a definite crack in the scale and that the knife should go back to Queen for repair BUT knowing of Stu's bad experience with Queen in the past and my experience with Queen in the past along with a couple of other guys that have PMed me about their terrible experience with Queen in the past, I just don't know what the answer for Stu is.

Sure, they are production knives but don't give me the attitude that flaws are acceptable in a production knife and that you can't get near perfection in a production knife. That's Bull Hockey!!!!! I have several production knives from the past that are perfect and some from the near past and recent production that are perfect or near perfect. Hell, I even have a Schatt & Morgan Stockman made in 2008 that rivals ANY knife I've ever seen -- production or custom. It is beautiful and perfect. Queen should be able to produce knives like that 24/7/365 but for some reason they are slipping in their attention to detail and quality control.

Once again I say, I hope our 2011 Froum Knife has no attachment to Queen Cutlery Company in any way.

 

[midnight flyer]

When Flymopn returned his knife he should have been given a replacement or a proper re-fit. When he was not pleased with the response-who would've been??-he should have got a Moose and the other knife that were inspected REALLY CAREFULLY by Queen so that no errors would be there. That crack by the pin isnt going to get better I'm sure... They slipped up again it seems and this sends out a depressing and distresing message to those of us that admire and like Queen Cutlery. I really suspect it is not shoddy workmanship or incompetent management, I fear their equipment and machine tools are so old,worn and unreliable that they cannot sustain quality at a consistent and acceptable level. I truly hope I am wrong and that my experiences have been extreme, because they can sometimes make a stunningly beautiful knife with authetic tradition behind it. That's what it's all about isn't it?

I think you touched on the most disturbing part of Flymon's episode, and that is: When they had a chance to make things right, they still didn't care enough to follow through to make sure he got a good product.

I am a small business owner, and have been for almost 30 years. Every honest business owner knows that not every project they turn out is their finest effort, especially if their product is made by hand. (I am in construction repair and remodeling.)

My personal opinion is (again, my opinion - I seem to tread too hard around here sometimes) that if you have a reasonable client that brings you a reasonable complaint, you drop what you are doing and make absolutely sure that client is taken care of quickly with your best efforts.

Making absolutely sure that your clients know they can buy from you (or in my case, contract my services) with complete confidence is the only way you can ensure that your company survives. The "hit and miss" warranty service and quality control are a sign that things don't bode well for the future.

Personally, I want to buy US made knives as I feel some kind of boyhood loyalty to these makers which have been in my pocket providing good service for almost 50 years.

But I want what I pay for, too. If I am forced to buy and inferior product from anyone, not just knives, that costs several times the price of their counterparts, I won't.

Right now I am a huge Queen fan thanks to one vendor, but have to put them in the same category with CASE. I wouldn't buy any of their products I couldn't hold in my hand. If they won't back them properly, they have made buying their product more of a lottery than sure fire purchase of a good product.

Robert

 

[kamagong]

I think you touched on the most disturbing part of Flymon's episode, and that is: When they had a chance to make things right, they still didn't care enough to follow through to make sure he got a good product.

That's an excellent point, and one that I agree with.

- Christian

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I don't care who makes it, any slipjoint should have a great edge out of the box. Queen has to know that this topic keeps potential buyers away. Not everyone wants to, or knows how to, reprofile D2.

I received a pretty good edge on my recent Case purchases, on my Tidioute purchases. The only knife that should be allowed to not have a good edge is the used slipjoint you buy in a flea market or antique mall. I shouldn't have to feel lucky that I got a good one, when I take my new Queen Mountain Man slipjoint out of the box.

I sent my Queen Mountain Man lockback back to Queen for blade wiggle and a sharpening job (not bad, but not good, edge right out of the box). They sent it back with a thick glob of grease on the blade, grease coming out of the pivot and a slight touch up to the edge, and the blade still had wiggle.

If you can inspect it before hand, get one. I wouldn't get another sight unseen. My Mountain Man slipjoint in zebrawood is a great knife. My canoe isn't a bad knife, for what I've seen out there.

 

[Modoc ED]

This from "willgoy": "I fear their equipment and machine tools are so old,worn and unreliable that they cannot sustain quality at a consistent and acceptable level."

This from "midnight flyer": "If they won't back them properly, they have made buying their product more of a lottery than sure fire purchase of a good product."

I think that what "willgoy" said is a good part of Queen's problem and that the backing that "midnight flyer" mentioned contributes to the frustration of some of us.

One thing I've noticed with a few of the latest knives I've received from Queen lately has to do with gaps betwen the liners and springs. It seems that when the liners are stamped out that nobody is taking the time to buff the burrs off the liners and when the knives are assembled, these burrs cause a gap between the liner and the spring. It's the same for the springs but to a lesser extent than the liners. Perhaps it is the old, worn, equipment that is contributing to this. That's an issue with quality control that could easily be addressed by them. Buff the liners and springs BEFORE assembly!!

Anyway, I'm not going to give up completely on Queen/Schatt & Morgan. I'm looking at a stockman on a dealer's site but have hesitated to click on the "Add To Cart" button because of these issues BUT just may go ahead and do so with the hopes of getting a decent knife.

 

[KnifeHead]

Dang Stu, sorry to hear about the headaches.

This is why:
A. I don't like to buy a knife unless I check it out first.
B. I check out knives before I buy them.
C. If I slip up and buy a knife before I've had a chance to CE and CF it and it is crap, I always ask myself, "You dillweed, why didn't you look at it first?"

.....cuts down on the "dangits!"

(I'm a big help, huh? )

 

[FLymon]

I appreciate all the feedback I have received so far.
Obviously we all have opinions about what is expected, and acceptable when it comes to production knives.
I was taking some pictures of three Mini Trappers I have the other day. A Queen that cost me about $45, a Case that cost me about $37, and a Schrade that cost me $7 (including postage).
The Queen is hands down my favorite, in fact if I could only keep 3 knives it would be one of them, including customs by names we all know. I took these pictures to show the difference in F&F between the three, focusing on the symmetry between the two blades at the pivot, and the way the blades lined up with the springs.

Queen:

Case:

Schrade:

Queen, Schrade, Case (L to R):

Case, Schrade, Queen (L to R)
The over-bite on the one Schrade blade is far less than the under-bite on the Case.:

Pretty close here. All have minor gaps, but the Schrade is actually tighter.
Queen, Schrade, Case (L to R):

I threw this one in to show how the Spey on the Case does not open all the way:

I feel these three are very fair representations of what to expect from each maker. Queen and Case better pray that the whoever is building the Schrade doesn't decide to match them in material quality, because they are killing them both in actual build quality.

That being said, the Swayback Jack in Chestnut Bone and CV is a killer knife that is as good as anything you will find. It's a two blade Jack between 3" and 3 1/2" and except for the TB on the blade shouldn't cost $25-$35 more than the trapper, but it does. I am attributing the quality of the Swayback to new tooling, and as a result a higher price. It is also IMHO worth the difference, and for the same F&F I would pay $65 for a Mini Trapper.

I wonder how many Swaybacks Case sells compared to the rest of the line at the lower price point, and if they (or Queen) could stay in business if they re-tooled everything, but added lets say $20 to every knife they made?

 

[thejamppa]

I had huge gaps and untolerable blade play for two Queen canoes I got. I'll get soon 3rd, now I hope its better. I do remember saying Queen is said to use "original" machines from 20th century. Several decade old machines will eventually wear out. Forum knives were late few weeks because gaps between liners and back springs, which ment Queen had to make all back springs again. That was not result of lack of compitence by personel or anything related to workers but I suspect machines couldn't just keep the tolerances acceptable.

Queen has had good reputation but in past years Queen's reputation has been declined. Queens issues is the patchiness, good are really good and poor ones are worse than pakistani made or no name china knives.

I doubt its expertise, so I am bound to agree with willgoy. Too old machines have worn too much to keep acceptable tolerance.

My Forum knife was good though. Minor blade play on both which I fixed easily. Clip blade has pull of 6 and spear point 8 in scale 1-10 no biggies. Minor gap, well, steel liners are unforgiving compeared to brass. My forum knife is sharp and has good and even bevels. I got pretty lucky.

 

[338375]

If indeed it can be attributed to worn out machinery, its time to invest in some new stuff...

They don't have to replace everything at once, just start with the machines that aren't working correctly anymore. Heck, if they don't want to spend the money on machinery, hire a GOOD millwright... Those guys can rebuild just about anything.
My best friend has been a millwright for about 20 years. He works in the Titanium casting industry. They make parts for jet engines, and for military jets. Their tolerances are unreal... Part of his job entails rebuilding and setting up the machinery for these parts. He took me on a tour a couple months ago, and showed me some of the machinery they use. He made mention that a lot of it is older, but the quality of the machinery is good. They just need proper care, and once in awhile they have to make a new part for it, to bring it back to specs, because parts are no longer available for them...

The thought of another company that has been part of our culture for years, being sold, and going overseas makes me ill.

Granted folks seem happy with the Rough Riders and similar knives ( I can't say because I don't own any) of overseas manufacturing, but look at what happened to Schrade... Yes, they are cheaper now, but reports are that they aren't anywhere close to the originals.

Buck tried overseas manufacturing on some of their knives. I have a couple, and they aren't bad, but it was great news to hear they brought back most of their knives to Idaho. Heck, Chuck Buck said they even added 40+ people to the payroll.

I know this subject has been beaten like a dead horse, but it is important.
I remember in the late 70's when the Japanese cars were really coming on strong here in the states.
Their quality was good, and it continued to get even better. At the same time, the U.S made cars went downhill in quality dramatically, and continued until a few years ago.
Its taken a while, but now it seems the quality has come back. They are actually able to compete in the market again.

Hopefully this will happen in the knife industry, I just hope it doesn't take as long, because I don't know if they could survive that long.

The old saying still holds true. If you want to make money, you have to spend money

 

[midnight flyer]

Dang Stu, sorry to hear about the headaches.

This is why:
A. I don't like to buy a knife unless I check it out first.
B. I check out knives before I buy them.
C. If I slip up and buy a knife before I've had a chance to CE and CF it and it is crap, I always ask myself, "You dillweed, why didn't you look at it first?"

.....cuts down on the "dangits!"

Excellent thoughts, and a fine strategy. The only retail knife store that offers any kind of selection here in my town sells their traditionals at about 30% over internet pricing. They have a very limited stock on hand, and if you order a "special knife" (say... a CASE "stockman" pattern) you are forced to pay for it 100% up front, as well as a special order fee, and shipping on top of that.

It's actually part of a gun store, and while they do a pretty good knife business, they really sell a lot of police/military knives as well as a lot of special ops/urban survival looking gear. NO Queens, NO S&M, Not even a Buck. Forget anything like a Canal Street, Northfield, or anything else. A full case of Kershaws (their quality is certain enough I buy them sight unseen, though) a few Bokers, a Hen and Rooster or two, and that is it.

Without online buying, I would have to travel to Houston to get to a decent knife store. Houston is about 3 1/2 hours away from me. Gas both ways (not to mention the time) in my truck is about $100.

Without the internet, I wouldn't have my Dan Burke trio: a barlow, a half whittler, and a small stockman. Nor would I have my S&M whittler, my Queen gunstock or sodbuster. There isn't even a place to go look at them around here. The offerings are so weak around here, that if they don't have them at the Bass Pro Shop or a gun show, none of my buddies have seen but a couple of traditional patterns.

I would love to hold, fondle and inspect every knife I am interested in buying before purchase. But for some of us, that just isn't a realistic expectation.

So I continue to play this crapshoot with the manufacturers, hoping that I get a good product from them. I can tell my interest in these patterns is not waning much, so there will be more buys in the future. I will be more careful when purchasing, but I won't quit right now.

Robert

 

[kamagong]

Complaints about production slipjoints are nothing new. Here's a thread from 2002 complaining about fit and finish.

 

[Will Power]

Interesting point Christian, but, ominous too as it mostly referred to Schrade who R.I.P. elsewhere these days......

 

[kamagong]

Interesting point Christian, but, ominous too as it mostly referred to Schrade who R.I.P. elsewhere these days......

I know, but my point is that there will always be issues with fit and finish when it comes to production slipjoints. Schrade, Queen, or Case it doesn't matter. You can even throw in Boker and Eye Brand into the mix. These manufacturers all make production knives, not one-at-a-time treasures built by master cutlers. Consumers can't expect perfection or even near perfection, at least not on a budget.

- Christian

 

[LX_Emergency]

Wish I'd have seen that one for sale....I really wanted one of those 2009 ones but only saw them when it was too late. I'd have taken it faults and all.

Hope everything ends up working out for you in the end though.

 

[Modoc ED]

Anyway, I'm not going to give up completely on Queen/Schatt & Morgan. I'm looking at a stockma on a dealer's site but have hesitated to click on the "Add To Cart" button because of these issues BUT just may go ahead and do so with the hopes of getting a decent knife.

Having said this earlier, I just placed an order with my dealer for a Schatt & Morgan Swaybelly Trapper with Orange/Yellow Jigged Bone handles. We'll see what comes in the mail and I'll post about it in a new thread when it gets here.

I don't want to see Queen used for the 2011 Forum knife but hell, I'll give them this chance for a one-on-one purchase.

We can't give up on our U.S.A. knife manufactures. We're just going to have to give em a kick in the ole wazoo once in awhile to wake em up. Wake up Queen!!!

 

[tomsch]

I'm somewhat new to the traditional knife world and have to admit I'm a little shocked at the issues on a $50-$100 slipjoint production knife. I'm certainly not new to knives overall but come more from the non-traditional side. I agree with Modoc Ed that we need to push the US companies to a higher standard. I have a small box of knives that are going back to Buck to correct. I was tempted to just put them in the garage box but after reading a few of these threads I think it is important to hold the manufactures to a standard.

 

[IVANKERLEY]

I'm somewhat new to the traditional knife world and have to admit I'm a little shocked at the issues on a $50-$100 slipjoint production knife. I'm certainly not new to knives overall but come more from the non-traditional side. I agree with Modoc Ed that we need to push the US companies to a higher standard. I have a small box of knives that are going back to Buck to correct. I was tempted to just put them in the garage box but after reading a few of these threads I think it is important to hold the manufactures to a standard.

so you have enough buck duds to fill a box
gene