How I got a 2010 Forum Moose/A review of Queen Cutlery

Only three Bucks that need to go back. Two tries at finding a 301 stockman on through internet sales failed. I also have a special edition canoe that needs blade wobble fixed. Enough to ship all together for some attention by Buck. Their customer service seems very strong so it will be worth the time to ship them back.
 
Kerry, sure it's best to examine a knife before buying it but many of us cannot do that. I live in the interior of B.C. and the nearest knife store would be in either Vancouver or Calgary which are drives of 10 and 8 hours respectively. In fact there are very few few knife stores anywhere in Canada, so for most Canadians the internet is the only option. I'm sure this is true for many Americans also.
Regardless of what a company manufactures, the quality should be good enough that buying an item sight unseen reliably results in the item being satisfactory.
I doubt you hand inspect every car part you buy, or every plumbing fixture, etc., because it is not necessary.
Why should it be acceptable for knife manufacturers to operate at a considerably lower standard than manufacturers of all other items ?
roland
 
kamagong said:
Consumers can't expect perfection or even near perfection, at least not on a budget.
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As someone already mentioned, Victorinox doesn't seem to have any problem churning out one after another perfect SAKs. And they are more complex than the slipjoints we're talking about, and usually for less money.

I've purchased a half-dozen Queens over the last few years. Some were very good, some were OK and some were poor. Most needed fairly serious bevel work to be up to snuff.

I recently bought a trio of Bucks... the Lancer, the Cadet and the Stockman (301). The shield fell off the Lancer when I took it out of the box. The Cadet and the 301 were very good. I gave away the 301 as a Christmas gift and I bought a second one for myself. It had mismatched scales (one almost black and one dark gray with lighter streaks) and a terrible grind on the spey blade, whose tip is clear of the liner/handle when closed.

In the same period of time, I've purchased three Vic Huntsmen, two Hikers, three Farmers, an Explorer, a Classic, a one-hand Trekker and I'm sure, others. The prices were comparable or cheaper than the American knives I mentioned. All were perfect. It can be done, and it can be expected!


Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
This is a very interesting thread and brings up many good points pertaining to the quality, or lack of, current production slipjoints. I would like to offer this up for consideration. Part of the problem as I see it is that the style of knife does not lend itself very well to modern production methods. Traditional slipjoint buyers expect a knife that "looks" like it was made 100 years ago while being made in modern factories with a completely different economic climate. When I look at a modern liner lock for instance, I see it as being much more receptive to modern production techniques. Plastic injection molding machines, cnc mills, lazers ect all work well for the modern liner lock. Its very easy to compare a modern production slipjoint to slipjoints made when "hand made" was not at the same premium as it is in today's factories. It is easy to say, "they made flawless knives back then, why not now" I am pretty sure the accountants will tell you the reason! There are numerous threads in the forum extolling certain offshore made slipjoints and the seemingly high fit and finish of these knives. My guess would be that the "hand made" part of these offshore knives are a lesser cost in manufacturing than a comparable knife made here in the states.

I personally think it is a uphill battle for the domestic slipjoint makers as labor rates escalate and the consumer's expectations increase. Throw in the "handmade" intensive style of product, natural materials(bone, ivory, wood, stag)that decide to swell, shrink, crack and check at will:eek: and the hill becomes a mountain.

I also think the factories can and should be doing a better job in the quality control dept. For reasons of self-preservation if nothing else.

Do I like to see knives with obvious flaws making it to the consumer? NO! Do I appreciate the production slipjoint makers still being in business here in the states doing what they can in a very tough market, YOU BETCHA!
 
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ken erickson said:
Do I like to see knives with obvious flaws making it to the consumer? NO! Do I appreciate the production slipjoint makers still being in business here in the states doing what they can in a very tough market, YOU BECTHA!
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+1

After posting what seemed like a negative view of the American knife industry, I must say I do support it and will continue to!

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
I have about 75 Case stockmen and I only have had 1 that has issues with blade alignment where the clip blade is slightly scratched from the blade next to it. The rest of them are all nice!
 
Thanks Ken for sharing your thoughts on the matter. As a maker you know better than most just what goes into making a slipjoint.

- Christian
 
rickmenefee said:
The bottom line its pretty hard to build one.
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ken erickson said:
:thumbup:;)

Yep, that too!

Ken
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What you guys do is hard, hard to comprehend :thumbup:

Here is how Case, and I assume Queen, builds most of their knives. It would appear that aside from sharpening, allot of the "flaws" we find could be solved by tuning, maintaining, or replacing equipment. Not so much poor handiwork.

[youtube]HbicSsrc43M[/youtube]
 
FLymon said:
What you guys do is hard, hard to comprehend :thumbup:
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I find the work they do incredible. The fit and finish on their knives is just incredible. I would be proud to own one.

FLymon said:
Here is how Case, and I assume Queen, builds most of their knives. It would appear that aside from sharpening, allot of the "flaws" we find could be solved by tuning, maintaining, or replacing equipment. Not so much poor handiwork.
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Honestly, watching that video made me a bit disappointed. I have been led to believe that there were many, many hand operations involved in each and every CASE knife. The only hand fitting I saw was driving a wedge into a poorly/tight fitting blade to open a gap so the blade would close well. I am sure we didn't see it all by any means, but I had this picture of a little, hunched over craftsman tapping parts and pieces together with tiny little adjustment hammers to get things just right.

I didn't know the blades were completely stamped, nicked, tempered, annealed, ground, drilled and polished by robots.

It appears that what those folks do is simply assemble pieces, and sand off anything that shouldn't be there before a quick sharpen and buff.

Interesting. After assembly, outside of loosening up a blade, I don't really see where they even have a chance at any kind of adjustments except maybe a slight adjustment to the kick, and as mentioned, forcing the knife apart.

That actually explains a lot about what comes out of the factory. After seeing the video, I agree completely that a good tuneup on the machines would probably go a long way towards a QC remedy.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
I find the work they do incredible. The fit and finish on their knives is just incredible. I would be proud to own one.



Honestly, watching that video made me a bit disappointed. I have been led to believe that there were many, many hand operations involved in each and every CASE knife. The only hand fitting I saw was driving a wedge into a poorly/tight fitting blade to open a gap so the blade would close well. I am sure we didn't see it all by any means, but I had this picture of a little, hunched over craftsman tapping parts and pieces together with tiny little adjustment hammers to get things just right.

I didn't know the blades were completely stamped, nicked, tempered, annealed, ground, drilled and polished by robots.

It appears that what those folks do is simply assemble pieces, and sand off anything that shouldn't be there before a quick sharpen and buff.

Interesting. After assembly, outside of loosening up a blade, I don't really see where they even have a chance at any kind of adjustments except maybe a slight adjustment to the kick, and as mentioned, forcing the knife apart.

That actually explains a lot about what comes out of the factory. After seeing the video, I agree completely that a good tuneup on the machines would probably go a long way towards a QC remedy.

Robert
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i still think its amazing, theres a reason why they sell little wooden kits of slipjoints, theyre complicated little pieces.
also keep in mind that Case has i think less than 300 employees, they produce i'm sure thousands of knives, in dozens of scale materials, patterns, SFO's etc. Queen has even less employees...
Just like i wouldnt be disappointed that my ford focus wasnt hand built like a ferrari... As much as you'd like to think of one guy one bench custombuilding knives i believe that was industry standard long before any of use were even born.
i still think its amazing, all those pieces coming together to make something i carry in my pocket
pretty cool
gene
 
yablanowitz said:
My two cents worth on Queen: If they are that bad at sharpening, they need to stop butchering edges and send their knives out unsharpened. On the 2010 Moose I kept, the clip blade was almost chisel ground, the edge angle was over 70 degrees included (closer to 80 at the heel), and the only way you could tell it started with a sharpening choil was by the small point left next to it where they didn't take the bevel all the way back. By the time I cleaned it up and put a 40 degree backbevel on it, there was no choil left and the edge is 0.030" thick at the back of the bevel. An edge that thick annoys me on a modern tacticool folder, much less on something that claims to be a traditional pattern. The spear blade was even worse, ending up 0.040" thick at the back of the 40 degree edge bevel, with no hint of a choil remaining. My 2009 Barlow wasn't any better.

I'm not a terribly picky person. Small imperfections don't bother me a bit. I carry and use knives with a little blade wobble all the time. I expect a little play in production knives just due to manufacturing tolerances. But these are supposed to be knives, not battleaxes. I already have cold chisels in my tool box, I don't need a folding cold chisel to carry in my pocket.
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I totally agree with yablanowitz on this. The thick edges and wide edge angles and uneven bevels are really annoying.

The 4 Queen knives that I have handled in person all had really good fit and finish, good walk and talk, and looked really good, but all of them except for one (S&M) had really bad sharpening jobs. The worst I have ever seen on a quality knife.
 
Sometimes it's all a matter of perspective.

I have a knife identical to the BF 2010 moose except for shield and tang stamp. The BF 2010 knife was originally a Vintage knives exclusive in about 2000-2005 before Bladeforums appropriated Billy (Pup) Cochrane's idea and Queen let BF use the desgin. My knife had thin gaps between liners like the queens in this thread. It also had an obtuse edge on both blades. The edge was also uneven. It had some "gouges" like that presented in another "Queen's no good" thread. It also has the "crack" around the pin that is shown in this thread. However, it was a gift from some dear family members, so I didn't complain and accepted the knife. If I was inclined to send it back, (I wasn't) it would have hurt their feelings.

So what happened after ~5 years of use. First, the "gouges" in the tang did not affect the function. The "crack" was actually part of the grain and thus did not gotten any bigger. Queen's ebony is not as fine graied as some other ebony. The "gaps" did not affect anything, but possibly the potential to rust. I oil it regularly so there is no rust. I sharpened it and the heat treat and steel is great, it takes and holds a good edge. I can even shave fine belly hair :) I really like the pattern. It holds good in the hand and has an awesome strong spring. I am OCD about polishing, so even though it is used regularly I DON'T let it get a patina unless I am traveling and the mirror polish still looks great. I put it in my pocket w/o a purse and with keys, any scratches polish out of the brash and nickel silver polish with ease. The ebony is hard (even though it's unstabilized) and the dings are minor and only visible "if you look hard." In short it's a favorite knife, up there with the Case Bose line...not because of fit/finish, but because of good design and good looks.

Queen really does make the knives the old way. Their designs are unique. They put some of the best swedges, bolster ornamentation, jigged bone and mirror finish on knives.

Plus, as three knifemakers have recently said in this thread, it's hard to make an old fashioned pocket knife. Remember, their knives cost 4-6 times a Queen...and they are not perfect either, you just have to look harder for the flaws :) Remember the Terminator, machines can do the same thing perfectly over and over, but men are men.
 
Great post brownshoe.I dont have the BF knife yet,but i cant wait to get it in hand.Looks like a dandy to me,flaws and all.;)
 
ken erickson said:
...Part of the problem as I see it is that the style of knife does not lend itself very well to modern production methods...
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Thank you for the explanation, Ken. I've always been mystified by the difference in quality between similarly priced traditional and modern folders. I'm glad you explained it. But it still bothers me that I can't have a $100 GEC with the same quality of a $100 Spyderco...
 
Making a traditional folder is not easy but its not helped if the parts are not made to fit together which is the problem.
 
I agree with you Shing:thumbup: You can be a master mason but if the stone is rotten and the ground unprepared you cannot raise a great building.
 
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