How much stock to place on lock tests?

[Insipid Moniker]

Well, my brother had a cheap, "mystery steel" frame-lock. Made in China, and cost eight dollars.
It went to 100% engagement, then got vertical play.
It would disengage with slight hand pressure on the spine.

When I held it in a normal hammer grip, I could lift a 30 pound weight tied to a piece of paracord off the ground , looping the paracord over the spine of the blade.

No video to show you guys, and no pics, so it won't count as "proof" for all you in internet land.
It sure counts as proof to me though, because I beheld it with my own two eyes.

The mode of failure for frame-locks is the lock-bar slipping off the blade's tang.
It doesn't take much force to prevent that, due to the nature of how the forces are transferred/directed.

Actually, I'm fairly happy with that evidence. It's not perfect, but I'd count it as prima facie evidence at least. I just had literally never heard of anyone actually testing it. My only follow up question (not as a gotcha, but honestly curious) is the grip you used one you would normally use while cutting?

 

[bflying]

Before I use any of my folding knives, I always spine whack five or six times with bare hands, just to make sure I'm not in any danger making a feather stick or cutting up a box. I thought this was standard procedure. [emoji12]

But those dang slip joints bite me every time. From now on, I'm grinding the edge off before I use any of them again.

In before the "lock". [emoji23] My kids would call that a lame dad joke. I get that a lot.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Actually, no, it's not. They tested two knives, one of which may have been damaged by the previous portion of the test. No matter how sound and controlled your testing expecting to get a truly accurate idea of standard performance from such a small sample is simply not realistic. I think they did the best they could to provide a level playing field, but variation will inevitably exist in any item you test. Without knowing median lock strength and the standard deviation from said median it's difficult to draw any conclusions beyond a few very broad ones.

If any portion of the test damaged the knife, they've successfully proved their point AFAIC.

 

[stabman]

Actually, I'm fairly happy with that evidence. It's not perfect, but I'd count it as prima facie evidence at least. I just had literally never heard of anyone actually testing it. My only follow up question (not as a gotcha, but honestly curious) is the grip you used one you would normally use while cutting?

When actually cutting, my grip is normally sort of a "saber-grip", kind of, and the thumb rides the spine in differing positions depending on at what angle and with how much pressure.
Hammer-grip is used more when using full arm or shoulder strength, for those cuts that are really at limits of what you use a knife for, whether in "hogging off" material for wood-working in the woods, or for ridiculous rigidity of cardboard or plastic that needs to be cut (more often it's wood than cardboard/plastic). You find out about handle ergonomic on those cuts.

On both grips it is mainly the index finger that appears to provide the most direct squeezing pressure, at least on the knives I have, with my size of fingers. Some frame-locks have where the clip also squeezes onto the bar, and then more length of hand can assist in providing anti-slippage force.

It seems to be mainly the index finger doing it though, maybe with slight assistance from the middle finger depending on handle design.
Just checked a couple of others, and on some, the middle finger comes into play quite a bit.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

When actually cutting, my grip is normally sort of a "saber-grip", kind of, and the thumb rides the spine in differing positions depending on at what angle and with how much pressure.
Hammer-grip is used more when using full arm or shoulder strength, for those cuts that are really at limits of what you use a knife for, whether in "hogging off" material for wood-working in the woods, or for ridiculous rigidity of cardboard or plastic that needs to be cut (more often it's wood than cardboard/plastic). You find out about handle ergonomic on those cuts.

On both grips it is mainly the index finger that appears to provide the most direct squeezing pressure, at least on the knives I have, with my size of fingers. Some frame-locks have where the clip also squeezes onto the bar, and then more length of hand can assist in providing anti-slippage force.

It seems to be mainly the index finger doing it though, maybe with slight assistance from the middle finger depending on handle design.
Just checked a couple of others, and on some, the middle finger comes into play quite a bit.

Yeah, I find I used a modified pinch grip for most of my tasks with a folder, which means I don't place much pressure at all on the lockbar. That may, in fact, be the root of my distaste for framelocks.

 

[Dean Crail]

I have seen an assload of CRK's in my time and I have personally never seen one fail like CS (May they go bankrupt and never be mentioned ever again) shows in the video. Heck I have never had a solid well put together knife fail on me ever (with the exception of an Emerson Super 7). If you buy a decent knife and use it for its intended purpose the knife will never fail. Me personally I cannot see myself EVER putting the stresses demonstrated in those moronic tests on any of my knives ever, and if I have to I have a perfectly good TGLB and a nice prybar that I am sure are up to the task.

Also keep in mind that these tests are propaganda, CS will only release a video that makes their product look good to do so otherwise would be stupid. Heck last time I checked CRK has never marketed their knives as "Hard Use" anyways even though I am certain they can take some pretty hard beatings. If you want to buy marketing and a lockback made by one of the most despised people in the industry buy a Cold Steel, if you want to buy a top of the line heirloom quality knife buy the Chris Reeve, at least if you but the CRK you are supporting an actual American company.

Ending my rant now

 

[Stays Sharp]

Company sponsored lock tests of its competition's knives posted on their YT and/or website along with their other advertisements meant to promote their brand over others'. Would they post a video where their knife ever fails at anything? If ever their own knives fails before the competition during tests would they publish it? No?

 

[DRK]

To answer your question, as far as CRK are concerned, I have about 4 of them and this test didn't cause me any loss of sleep. But to qualify that statement I have never had a lock of any type fail. This is probably do to the fact that I try to never put a folding knife in a position to fail. All the locks be they frame, access, liner, compression, lockback and so forth, are absolutely fine for my EDC needs. However that's just me. If you use a knife in such a way that it may need to stand up to the type of force that they subjected the knife in the test to (and you don't want to carry a fixed blade) then it would be important to dig in and research it for sure. On the other hand, if you are going to EDC the knife in the way most people here do (and there are certainly a lot of folks on this forum that have put sebenzas through their paces without the lock failing) I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[toker]

I've never had any lock fail on a folding knife either. But I usually just use them to cut things... in a sensible way.

Buy a fixed blade knife if you need one.

 

[Charlie Mike]

I trust Demko's lock and tests. I regularly carry a pair of Rajah 2 folders. If I need a fixed blade but can't carry one, I carry Cold Steel.

 

[newdebate]

To suggest this is to imply that Mr. Demko and Cold Steel provided a disingenuous and misleading test.

They drilled a "mounting hole" in the Sebenza and deformed the lock with a torque wrench; so you're correct about the "test" being shady.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

They drilled a "mounting hole" in the Sebenza and deformed the lock with a torque wrench; so you're correct about the "test" being shady.

Nothing they did compromised the integrity of the knife. If you disagree I would like to see evidence, or perhaps CRK will have something to say about it? I keep hearing that they're "taking the high road" and that Chris Reeve is "being the bigger man" about it by not saying anything.

 

[Leftytwogunz]

Oh, here we go again, more weight lifting with folding knives.

Skimming through, I actually saw one guy say something about being in the miltary would need a triad lock.
I, and a few others here were in the military. Never had to hang myself or anything else from a folding knife clipped in a vice, wedged in a rock or any other ridiculous, imaginary scenario you guys invent. Silly is all this is.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

If any portion of the test damaged the knife, they've successfully proved their point AFAIC.

I agree and I don't think there's any real question that the Triad lock on the Code 4 is stronger than the RIL on the Sebenza. My point was that it's impossible accurately gauge how strong the lock on any given knife is with that small a sample size. Broad conclusions are possible i.e. the Triad is frickin' strong, and I have no doubts that just about any RIL will fail before it given roughly equal footing, but I'm deeply skeptical that every Sebenza would fail with less than 100 inch pounds of torque.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Oh, here we go again, more weight lifting with folding knives.

Skimming through, I actually saw one guy say something about being in the miltary would need a triad lock.
I, and a few others here were in the military. Never had to hang myself or anything else from a folding knife clipped in a vice, wedged in a rock or any other ridiculous, imaginary scenario you guys invent. Silly is all this is.

That was me. I said the following:

Whether or not it should matter to you depends on your usage. I generally only put my folding knives into light EDC use, so it doesn't matter to me as much as it used to. Slipjoints are fine for me most of the time. Were I in the military, I would only carry Tri-Ad locks.

Fixed blades are always better than folding knives for rough use.

It wasn't my intention to imply necessity, but to state preference. If I'm going to subject myself to the worst, I want the best.

I agree and I don't think there's any real question that the Triad lock on the Code 4 is stronger than the RIL on the Sebenza. My point was that it's impossible accurately gauge how strong the lock on any given knife is with that small a sample size. Broad conclusions are possible i.e. the Triad is frickin' strong, and I have no doubts that just about any RIL will fail before it given roughly equal footing, but I'm deeply skeptical that every Sebenza would fail with less than 100 inch pounds of torque.

Fair enough, though that does imply some degree of variability regarding quality control, and CRKs are known for nothing if not QC.

 

[newdebate]

Nothing they did compromised the integrity of the knife. If you disagree I would like to see evidence...

The guy conducting the "test" drilled a hole in the Sebenza, at the base of the lockbar. After this design tampering, the Sebenza lockbar was pinched open with the torque wrench, deforming the lock geometry.

Test is misleading and goofy.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

The guy conducting the "test" drilled a hole in the Sebenza, at the base of the lockbar. After this design tampering, the Sebenza lockbar was pinched open with the torque wrench, deforming the lock geometry.

Test is misleading and goofy.

So, you're saying that Mr. Demko and Cold Steel intentionally mislead the public with this test? That's quite the claim, and as the burden of proof is on the accuser, you'll need to elaborate and clearly show how what Mr. Demko did compromised the lock security of the Sebenza.

 

[stkh22]

Never had an issue with my CRK, I don't get caught up in what lock is stronger or what not. That is great that Cold Steel has a strong lock, if that is what it takes to sell their knives, more power to them. As for the scenario where you need to depend on your EDC folder to save your life because your hanging off a ledge or what not, your already screwed for putting yourself in that scenario in the first place.

 

[method_burger]

None whatsoever. With all the test videos I have seen, liner/frame locks can handle about 100 lbs of force (in a variety of configurations) and lockbacks/axis locks can handle quite a bit more. In a folder, I am more concerned about blade play, because if you can feel a bit of wiggle, that will only wear the knife down faster and may be a compromised lock.

What surprised me most in the cold steel code 4 vs sebenza was the sebenza failed at 40lbs. I don't think any frame lock strength test was that bad, unless it was a knock-off or defective. Which leads me to believe that the video was an outlier of what framelocks are generally capable of

 

[Insipid Moniker]

The guy conducting the "test" drilled a hole in the Sebenza, at the base of the lockbar. After this design tampering, the Sebenza lockbar was pinched open with the torque wrench, deforming the lock geometry.

Test is misleading and goofy.

If a bit of torque from the wrench is capable of compromising the knife that much, it raises a whole different set of questions in my mind about the Sebenza. Particularly since other framelocks were tested the same way and held up much, much better.