How much stock to place on lock tests?

[James Y]

IMO, people can get TOO caught up in pure lock strength, when there are other safety factors to consider. With a Tri-ad locking knife, you need to be especially aware as you're UNlocking it. The blade can slam shut like a guillotine if you let your attention lapse at the wrong moment. Ironically, the only knife that's ever slammed shut on my finger is a CS Code 4. User error; I take full responsibility. But a very brief lapse in my attention during (improperly) closing and it slammed into the back of my right index finger, near the last joint. That was 7 months ago, and I took several months of physical therapy to get my finger's stability, strength and ROM back to normal. Now the last joint will likely droop forward a bit permanently, though I hope not. It's still tight and requires special exercises to loosen it up throughout the day, and still has swelling inside. It could have been MUCH worse. As it is, the extensor tendon was seriously lacerated, and I lost 4 months of work, since my job requires full use of my hands.

That has never happened to me with any other knife, including any other lockbacks or slipjoints. And it wouldn't happen with my CRK, as it doesn't have a backspring to pull it shut. I use my knives as knives, and will never have to use mine as a handhold for rock climbing, or to stop myself from sliding down an icy mountainside.

Like I said, it was my bad. But that doesn't change the fact that as knife fans, it's very easy for our attention to lapse now and then when closing a folder. It's easy to take it for granted. But with such a strong lock and strong backspring on the Tri-ad lock, you should be extra careful during the unlocking phase. If that had happened to me out in the middle of nowhere, I probably would have been screwed.

Jim

 

[MONKEYAZZ]

I love the lock tests it has taught me that steel liners are not required and I am not giving up strength with my relatively light 4 inch Talwar. Also why spend the premium on the sebeneeza? It has no super steel slick handle no better than aluminum and lock is average at best. I like performance and I don't mind paying for it but the Sebeneeza is all show no go.

 

[NJBillK]

Well, my brother had a cheap, "mystery steel" frame-lock. Made in China, and cost eight dollars.
It went to 100% engagement, then got vertical play.
It would disengage with slight hand pressure on the spine.

When I held it in a normal hammer grip, I could lift a 30 pound weight tied to a piece of paracord off the ground , looping the paracord over the spine of the blade.

No video to show you guys, and no pics, so it won't count as "proof" for all you in internet land.
It sure counts as proof to me though, because I beheld it with my own two eyes.

The mode of failure for frame-locks is the lock-bar slipping off the blade's tang.
It doesn't take much force to prevent that, due to the nature of how the forces are transferred/directed.

So you Knew the one lock on a particular knife to be prone to failure under certain circumstances, and to further test said lock (on the same faulty knife) you put your Fingers in the way just to add pressure to a lock bar that was known to fail?

This makes absolutely no sense to me... A best case scenario is what you experienced. The likely outcome was that the lock would Still Fail and you would have had to be rushed to a hospital.

Proof or not, that is Not how we should suggest others test Any Lock, New, Used, known to be faulty, or Hoped to be strong as a triad is suggested...
--------
If locks are as big of a deal as they relate made out to be, why are slip joints so prevalent? Use your knife to cut, sharp side away from you (normally), a pry bar to pry and hammer to hammer...

I was hoping to add more to this thread, but when I read this, I decided that anything I may add has likely been said, or worse has been offered as "proof".

I love the lock tests it has taught me that steel liners are not required and I am not giving up strength with my relatively light 4 inch Talwar. Also why spend the premium on the sebeneeza? It has no super steel slick handle no better than aluminum and lock is average at best. I like performance and I don't mind paying for it but the Sebeneeza is all show no go.

With a Sebenza or other CRK product, you aren't paying for Lock Strength. Is a Cold Steel built to the same tolerances as a CRK? Does it have the same resale value? Does it have the same warranty and customer service as a CRK?

Please enjoy your new year safely folks and don't put too much stock in "lock strength" as an end all/be all scenario.

 

[Lee D]

Not this again

 

[Leftytwogunz]

You know what company produces a lot of lock tests and puts them on the internet?

A company who is trying to convince you that this secondary feature it the only thing to consider in a folding knife.
How else could they put themselves on your radar, if you were considering a sebenza, a ZT, a spyderco? To suggest that their one shining achievement, the triad lock, is the only thing that you need in a folder. Forget US construction, high end steels, innovation and not to mention the long list of awards that chris reeve has won at bladeshows.

All you need is a strong lock. Because when we clamp it in a vice, we say it should hold weight! Ignore the fact that during normal cutting tasks hundreds of pounds of pressure isn't even applied in this manner.

Knife weight lifting and spine whack tests, if you allow yourself to be led to believe that these are the most important things to consider when buying a folding knife, then you should definitely get a cold steel knife. Enjoy them.

 

[newdebate]

So, you're saying that Mr. Demko and Cold Steel intentionally mislead the public with this test? That's quite the claim, and as the burden of proof is on the accuser, you'll need to elaborate and clearly show how what Mr. Demko did compromised the lock security of the Sebenza.

Not sure who the rocket surgeon in the "test" video is or if this is actually a Cold Steel production ... there isn't a pickled pigs foot, is there?

 

[craytab]

You know what company produces a lot of lock tests and puts them on the internet?

A company who is trying to convince you that this secondary feature it the only thing to consider in a folding knife.
How else could they put themselves on your radar, if you were considering a sebenza, a ZT, a spyderco? To suggest that their one shining achievement, the triad lock, is the only thing that you need in a folder. Forget US construction, high end steels, innovation and not to mention the long list of awards that chris reeve has won at bladeshows.

All you need is a strong lock. Because when we clamp it in a vice, we say it should hold weight! Ignore the fact that during normal cutting tasks hundreds of pounds of pressure isn't even applied in this manner.

Knife weight lifting and spine whack tests, if you allow yourself to be led to believe that these are the most important things to consider when buying a folding knife, then you should definitely get a cold steel knife. Enjoy them.

I agree to a certain extent. But let us not forget what Cold steel has also done. The Recon 1 I have as been greatly improved. It uses a higher end USA made steel. The blade is coated with a much improved DLC coating. The linerless design of the G10 handle shows innovation. Like it or not, the triad lock is innovation.

Lock strength tests are a bit silly and the strength of the triad lock is not the reason I own a Recon 1.

 

[MONKEYAZZ]

So you Knew the one lock on a particular knife to be prone to failure under certain circumstances, and to further test said lock (on the same faulty knife) you put your Fingers in the way just to add pressure to a lock bar that was known to fail?

This makes absolutely no sense to me... A best case scenario is what you experienced. The likely outcome was that the lock would Still Fail and you would have had to be rushed to a hospital.

Proof or not, that is Not how we should suggest others test Any Lock, New, Used, known to be faulty, or Hoped to be strong as a triad is suggested...
--------
If locks are as big of a deal as they relate made out to be, why are slip joints so prevalent? Use your knife to cut, sharp side away from you (normally), a pry bar to pry and hammer to hammer...

I was hoping to add more to this thread, but when I read this, I decided that anything I may add has likely been said, or worse has been offered as "proof".



With a Sebenza or other CRK product, you aren't paying for Lock Strength. Is a Cold Steel built to the same tolerances as a CRK? Does it have the same resale value? Does it have the same warranty and customer service as a CRK?

Please enjoy your new year safely folks and don't put too much stock in "lock strength" as an end all/be all scenario.

I would have to agree that to much stock is put into lock strength. I love a liner lock and any quality brand gets it right the majority of the time. But I ask again why pay a premium for a sebeneeza when you know the lock is No better than a 50$ knife. Also tight tolerances only should count if it results in an superior product. And I will concede there warranty is probably better than cold steel.

 

[stkh22]

You pay a premium for a Sebenza or any CRK because of the materials, origin of where its made, and fit and finish. If you are happy with g10 handles scales and made in Taiwan then who are we to tell you otherwise. Titanium costs more than g10, and labor and manufacturing costs state side are more expensive than overseas. Fit and finish of any CRK is in a different league compared Cold Steel, but if your happy with your $50-100 folder that is fine. There will always be people who want more and willing to pay for it. If lock strength was the most important factor of a folding knife, Cold Steel should no doubt be the #1 best selling knife company in the world hands down according to your belief. I guess millions of people are ignorant and wrong for buying anything but a Cold Steel knife.

 

[NJBillK]

As the phrase goes, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

While you may not value the level of engineering that goes into a product that CRK prides them self on, doesn't mean that they aren't worth the coin. I know that you aren't saying that either.

That being said, all of the minute details that add up to make a CRK is where the "Value" or "Abomination" resides. The only thing that holds any weight is whether one feels that the price is justified by all of the small gains that net a "superior" product.

You may value lock strength and price over tight tolerances and the cost of a warranty when you can just buy another.
----------
I get it, this whole thread can be summed up in the Two Words that can answer 95% of all threads here, It Depends.

For me, I would rather spend the coin on a product that I know will last a life time, plus being able to send it in for a spa and a new blade so I can pass my CRK down to my daughter (I purchased one that was made on her Birthday with this intent).

It wasn't purchased with lock strength in mind, I know how to use a knife as a "cutting implement". Yes, their steel is ran a touch soft to aid in field maintenance but I have knives that fit my camping and yard work needs better.
Are there knives that I own that suit my needs better, in some ways yes. But most of my preferences are met by only one knife, My large 21.

 

[stabman]

So you Knew the one lock on a particular knife to be prone to failure under certain circumstances, and to further test said lock (on the same faulty knife) you put your Fingers in the way just to add pressure to a lock bar that was known to fail?
This makes absolutely no sense to me... A best case scenario is what you experienced. The likely outcome was that the lock would Still Fail and you would have had to be rushed to a hospital.

Yep.
I have plenty of fingers, and healthcare is free...why not take advantage of those facts?

But to answer with slightly less glibness, of course I tested with increasing amounts of pressure, starting with the same light hand pressure that had made it fail before.

Besides, you are missing the most salient point; I already knew that hand/finger pressure would make it so it wouldn't slide, because I had analysed the situation with my brain.
I simply "put my fingers where my brain was" so to speak, but I already had full confidence of the outcome.
And guess what, I was right...yet again.

(You likely outcome was not likely, inevitable, or what was to happen...and I already knew that)

And, it was not very sharp...why would it be, when it was made of mystery steel, and had a lock that didn't work?

 

[NJBillK]

I guess I am not so willing to trust a faulty and damaged mechanical device to the safety of my fingers being willfully put, potentially, in harms way.

To each their own. I want to be able to count to ten with my shoes still on...

 

[stabman]

I guess I am not so willing to trust a faulty and damaged mechanical device to the safety of my fingers being willfully put, potentially, in harms way.

To each their own. I want to be able to count to ten with my shoes still on...

I figured I'd still be able to count to nine at least.

 

[Danke42]

I figured I'd still be able to count to nine at least.

Keep at it, you're near halfway to as good as Trigger.

 

[stabman]

Keep at it, you're near halfway to as good as Trigger.

Alas, my brain and understanding of how forces transfer was correct (as I knew it was), so I missed out on the opportunity to have my finger reattached at no additional cost, at the hospital that was only a short drive away.
So sad.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I would have to agree that to much stock is put into lock strength. I love a liner lock and any quality brand gets it right the majority of the time. But I ask again why pay a premium for a sebeneeza when you know the lock is No better than a 50$ knife. Also tight tolerances only should count if it results in an superior product. And I will concede there warranty is probably better than cold steel.

Some people spend money on high end mechanical watches that are inevitably outperformed by an inexpensive digital watch. Like it or not, value and performance are rarely, if ever, directly related. And even then, lock strength is only one, very small, aspect of performance in the knife world. Personally, I find the Sebenza and other CRK products overpriced, because much of the cost comes from their legendary tolerances, which I don't see as providing any significant benefit to the end user, but if somebody wants a folding knife with tighter tolerances than a friggin' space shuttle and they're willing to spend the coin, CRK is unquestionably the best way to go. Personally, I'll stick with $100 knives that cut just as well, for just as long, and offer locks and handle materials I like more, but that doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong.

 

[stabman]

Personally, I'll stick with $100 knives that cut just as well, for just as long, and offer locks and handle materials I like more, but that doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong.

Very valid reason for purchase.

One of my fronds has described certain of my knives as having handles that are "a kick in the balls for the hand."
Yet to me, the handle design is ergonomic for long-term use, and I like how the handle material feels.
But for his hands, they would be terrible knives that he would avoid using.

 

[onojoe]

To answer your original question OP. Get a sebenza, you will be happy

 

[xMachiavelli]

Long story short---I have seriously been considering a Sebenza purchase. I have though about the idea off and on. Having scored some funds over the holidays, I was ready to pull the trigger. Then, while doing more homework online, I came across this recent lock test by Cold Steel. I really don't know if this should be a cause for concern but I honestly have to admit that it has given me reason to pause and at least reconsider whether to spend the money. I have seen these comparisons before by Cold Steel but this is the first time I have seen a knife lock fail in this manner.

[video=youtube;T4DNRn-sK-c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4DNRn-sK-c[/video]

To start, I own many knives including CS knives and CRK knives.

Now, this test is a CS test. Their knives are designed to pass this test. CS is pretty open about this.

Obviously, a different knife that is not designed to pass this test won't win in a 1v1 showdown. The triad lock can definitely withstand some weight and abuse. Plan to hang weights?

How would people react if Chris Reeve made videos about how the tolerances and fit/finish of his Sebenzas destroyed Cold Steel knives? People would be like.. Duh, it's a Sebenza and CRK has crazy tolerances.

Just keep in mind, those CS tests are made for their knives essentially.

 

[Velitrius]

You want a Sebenza? Then get a Sebenza.

I personally put little to no stock in "lock test videos". I've carried slipjoints for years... nary a lock, ne'er a nick.

Want to do chin-ups on your knife? Get a fixed blade.