How overbuilt is too overbuilt?

Metallurgy and materials science question.
I have two samples, A and B of the same dimension and material.
A is hardened to a "soft" hardness with limited elastic threshold and a low plastic threshold.
B is hardened to be "hard" with a wider elastic threshold, and a plastic threshold very near its total bending failure strength

Would A be weaker since it would fail under shear and torsional force as well as bending, where B would resist higher forces even though the end failure is more catastrophic?

Also Precision, flex as a measure of skill only really applies to one aspect of knife making, that test is only ever done with fixed blades that are test-beds, and are not required to hold an edge at all. It comes from an age past, when that was one of the few things that a good craftsman could get out of a blade, compared to any old joe. If you want a dead soft knife blade, there are plenty of companies selling 400 class mystery stainless blades that fit that description. Or get a prybar.
 
precisionshootist said:
batoning with a wood baton will hopefully not snap the blade but it does happen and way too often. Now put the knives you posted in a vice and apply lateral force and the blade will likely snap and not bend. Myself I would much prefer a little softer and a little more capability to bend with lateral force and impact with a hard object. Oh and please, I'm not suggesting you do this with your nice knives, I have many myself and would not do this, I'm just saying that I don't kid myself about what the result would be if I did. Most of my overbuilt folders are NOT as strong and the blade thickness suggests. If you have been around the knife world for a while and I'm pretty sure you have you've probably heard of one of the tests that you have to pass to get into the guild and that is your blade has to withstand significant lateral force, bend and return to shape without breaking. That is what I would much prefer in our super strong looking overbuilt folders not edge holding.
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Uhhhmmmm....what? What folders would you be using that you'd be trying to apply that much lateral force to? If you have a need to be able to apply significant lateral force, then you should be carrying a fixed blade. Your argument becomes null and void given that we're discussing folding knives, wherein the internals of the knife (pivot and stop pins, respectively) become the real focal and thus weak point of a knife. Stating that you want a folding knife that apparently can be put in a vise and bent and then return to true when discussing folding knives is...uh, well it's something alright.

Me personally? If we're discussing a strong overbuilt folder, edge holding would absolutely be my primary concern.
 
Quiet said:
Uhhhmmmm....what? What folders would you be using that you'd be trying to apply that much lateral force to? If you have a need to be able to apply significant lateral force, then you should be carrying a fixed blade. Your argument becomes null and void given that we're discussing folding knives, wherein the internals of the knife (pivot and stop pins, respectively) become the real focal and thus weak point of a knife. Stating that you want a folding knife that apparently can be put in a vise and bent and then return to true when discussing folding knives is...uh, well it's something alright.

Me personally? If we're discussing a strong overbuilt folder, edge holding would absolutely be my primary concern.
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Well if you have extreme edge holding then you don't really have a strong overbuilt folder. It might look strong but to attain the very high edge holding ability the blade must be hardened to the point it's quite brittle and thus fragile which defeats the whole purpose. Bottom line extreme edge holding and overbuilt (ruggedness) are opposite goals with current technology, so it's a trade off.
I just fall into the category that would prefer a little less edge holding and a more durable easier to sharpen blade. In the overbuilt dept. I most often carry Cold Steel folders and I have a bunch of different ones. Cold Steel in particular you can almost guarantee the blade will break before the lock, pivot pin, or frame. If you took say a Cold Steel Spartan, SR1, Recon 1 or even a 4max but dropped the "super steel" and went with 1095 or 5160
at a mild 53HRC or so then you would really have an "overbuilt" folder. If you need stainless then it could still be done just back off on the heat treat so the blade can withstand the extreme abuse the knife is intended to handle.
 
precisionshootist said:
Well if you have extreme edge holding then you don't really have a strong overbuilt folder. It might look strong but to attain the very high edge holding ability the blade must be hardened to the point it's quite brittle and thus fragile which defeats the whole purpose. Bottom line extreme edge holding and overbuilt (ruggedness) are opposite goals with current technology, so it's a trade off.
I just fall into the category that would prefer a little less edge holding and a more durable easier to sharpen blade. In the overbuilt dept. I most often carry Cold Steel folders and I have a bunch of different ones. Cold Steel in particular you can almost guarantee the blade will break before the lock, pivot pin, or frame. If you took say a Cold Steel Spartan, SR1, Recon 1 or even a 4max but dropped the "super steel" and went with 1095 or 5160
at a mild 53HRC or so then you would really have an "overbuilt" folder. If you need stainless then it could still be done just back off on the heat treat so the blade can withstand the extreme abuse the knife is intended to handle.
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Yeah, I stopped reading here at the bolded part, since this isn't true at all. I have direct experience with plenty of knives with very high edge holding qualities, and the blades haven't been brittle in the slightest, so I almost feel like you're bench-racing with concepts that you don't quite deeply understand.

Edit: Ok, I had to go back and read this to make sure my casual glance hadn't been incorrect. You would rather have 1095 at 52HRC than a better steel? I uhhhh...bless your heart, man. Bless your heart.
 
Many PM steels used in higher end overbuilt folders have a nice balance of toughness and edge retention. If you are thrashing the folder to the point that you are damaging the blade because the steel isn't tough enough, you are begging to get your fingers lopped off from catastrophic failure. If you beat a knife that hard, then you should be going for a carbon steel fixed blade, not a stainless folder. Tool for the job.
 
dkb45 said:
Many PM steels used in higher end overbuilt folders have a nice balance of toughness and edge retention. If you are thrashing the folder to the point that you are damaging the blade because the steel isn't tough enough, you are begging to get your fingers lopped off from catastrophic failure. If you beat a knife that hard, then you should be going for a carbon steel fixed blade, not a stainless folder. Tool for the job.
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Why would you want Carbon Steel in the fixed blade for thrashing?
 
I see this in watches. You would think humans are becoming blind mole people with how gigantic watch faces are these days. The reason? IMO, in a world full of clocks and a world where everyone has a phone in their pocket, watches are obsolete. People where them as jewelry and I think pocket knives have gone the same way. Very few people in the modern world NEED a pocket knife so it too is jewelry. Combine that with ignorance on what makes a good knife and you have a bunch of “indestructible/hardcore” knives because that’s what a knife is “supposed to be” to people who don’t actually use their knives for anything besides popping tape on boxes.
 
Shotgun said:
I see this in watches. You would think humans are becoming blind mole people with how gigantic watch faces are these days. The reason? IMO, in a world full of clocks and a world where everyone has a phone in their pocket, watches are obsolete. People where them as jewelry and I think pocket knives have gone the same way. Very few people in the modern world NEED a pocket knife so it too is jewelry. Combine that with ignorance on what makes a good knife and you have a bunch of “indestructible/hardcore” knives because that’s what a knife is “supposed to be” to people who don’t actually use their knives for anything besides popping tape on boxes.
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Quoted for truth! GREAT post!

Robert
 
Shotgun said:
I see this in watches. You would think humans are becoming blind mole people with how gigantic watch faces are these days. The reason? IMO, in a world full of clocks and a world where everyone has a phone in their pocket, watches are obsolete. People where them as jewelry and I think pocket knives have gone the same way. Very few people in the modern world NEED a pocket knife so it too is jewelry. Combine that with ignorance on what makes a good knife and you have a bunch of “indestructible/hardcore” knives because that’s what a knife is “supposed to be” to people who don’t actually use their knives for anything besides popping tape on boxes.
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Funny but true. I'm a watch nut also but it's because I have been wearing a watch since the 3rd grade and started carrying a knife in the 5th grade (the horror!). I have a number of watches of course and some are rather large but there is some justification for larger watch cases for dive watches, etc. They don't need to be like a wall clock strapped to your wrist however. Those I don't wear cause it serves no real purpose but the watch I'm wearing right now is a 44mm Swiss diver. A lot of people I know don't wear a watch cause they say they can just look at their cell phone. That does not work for me, I like to know the time at a glance and almost always have a watch with a timing bezel. My watches work all the time and don't self destruct if I jump in the pool with them!
 
Shotgun said:
I see this in watches. You would think humans are becoming blind mole people with how gigantic watch faces are these days. The reason? IMO, in a world full of clocks and a world where everyone has a phone in their pocket, watches are obsolete. People where them as jewelry and I think pocket knives have gone the same way. Very few people in the modern world NEED a pocket knife so it too is jewelry. Combine that with ignorance on what makes a good knife and you have a bunch of “indestructible/hardcore” knives because that’s what a knife is “supposed to be” to people who don’t actually use their knives for anything besides popping tape on boxes.
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Well, I find that I feel the "need" for a watch...I hate pulling my stupid phone from the pant leg cargo pocket, pulling it out of the drawstring cloth bag, and pushing a button, all just to check the time. With a watch, I just look at my wrist, and that is that. :thumbsup:

You are right about the insane size of many modern offerings though.
I like a big watch, but I made the mistake of buying one online when my last watch crapped out on me.
Bought an Invicta...the damn thing was so thick that it got in the way of the sleeves of my coat!
In weighs more that most of the knives people think are too heavy to carry.

Luckily, my wife bought me a Bulova so I don't have to wear this horrid thing, but after that experience, I looked around and saw a whole bunch of guys wearing watches in the same size range.


But, in the second part of your post, are you saying that I shouldn't be using a 1/4" thick blade to cut tape?
Seems to be odd advice...it cut the tape just fine last time I used it. :D
 
alot of funny opinions and "science" in this thread... IMO overbuilt folders are just silly I got a CPM20cv ZT0562cf and its definitely "overbuilt" i tried to love it i really did..carried it for 2 months before selling it and buying a benchmade 940-1501 in the same steel CPM20CV and just about half the weight (1.9oz vs 5.oz) both can seemingly do exactly the same amount of work (edge retention tip strength etc)
and for me, the 940-1501 does it with half the pocket weight (im already carrying a galaxy note 8 7oz+ with case) keys wallet etc..

i used to be a cop in nypd and carried 30+ pounds daily .. now that im retired im all about carrying less weight on my body.. The ZT 0562 felt like dead weight in my pocket and always moved around if i wore shorts (i live in central FL so basically all the time)

for me its completely unnecessary to have all that thick titanium and super thick blade... Im not batoning anything on a daily basis and if i want anything stronger than my BM 940 i would just carry my ESEE 3 mil or a bark river north country edc (both perfect edc fixed blades IMO)

i see some guys EDC "loadout" and i cannot help from laughing at the 8lbs of crap they carry between their giant watch to their Tactical man wallet with survival kit and their 1/2 pound knife that looks like it was made for Andre the Giant.. watch, keys, second knife (no clue why), fidget spinner (that probably cost $200) some even carry little maxpedition pouches full of prepper stuff (i have no problems and own a "go" bag myself but dont carry it on my person) it just seems ridiculous to carry all that crap in a day to day urban setting... (if you are hunting or camping etc its another story) im talking about they guy who carries 8lbs of crap they will most likely never use to go to target or get milk or wear all that to their job at an office etc... just seems nonsensical..

Edit I forgot to mention that i like the 940-1501 so much its even kicked my ZT 0450 and PM2 out of rotation... the blade on the 940 is a better slicer than the 0450 and the PM2 always has such a large in pocket feel compared to the other 2 (not a spydie hole fan) the cpm20cv is just icing on the cake for IMO a perfect EDC ..if you need more than that. use a fixed blade.. honestly this BM 940-1501 has me thinking of purging all my overbuilt folders (zt's etc) honestly im basically carrying the 940 and my 0770cf (another almost perfect knife IMO)... i think i have officially switched to tough gentleman's folders from here on out unless im outside in nature and then i will carry one of my fixed blades..
 
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shunsui said:
Tough gentleman's folders.

ROTFLMAO
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glad i was able to make you laugh
ever hear of a sebenza?
CRK-S211008.jpg

or any slim frame lock? like a zero tolerance 0450?
ZT-0450.jpg

158bd9db99d229.jpg

seeing as your only reply is to snort in derision i'll just assume you arent here to contribute to the conversation and merely troll it...
 
F22shift said:
Yeah it would work but it would be exhausting and too slow for my liking. A buddy of mine has sak and it’s just too much saw action for a serious tool.
I would get wiped out in a jungle environment. I view the sak saw more as an emergency saw which actually fits your use as weight is important on the bike. If I were you, I would consider a silky pocketboy. Not as light as a sak but chews through wood like a beaver.
Basically I would have a general rule to chop wood that is wrist size and smaller. It also depends on how hard the wood is. Otherwise I have a silky zubat 330 (330mm blade) for the bigger stuff and very hard wood. No sense in dulling the edge on the hard stuff. Once you loose the edge, you will know. You will be doing a lot of extra swings on the lighter foliage. On the wrist size it’ll be about 2-3 chops and 1 chop easy for finger size. I feel it’s faster than a saw.
The environment is not a fun one. Swarms of mosquitoes and stopping for a second means ants crawling up your boots and under your pants. There is a sense of urgency to have an efficient system to clear especially if you are running point on an exploration group.
Also, I find chopping enjoyable in a camp setting. There’s a bushcraft guy I watch on YouTube. He uses an axe and freely admits a saw would be more efficient. But he grew up on axes and loves it.
So yeah overbuilt for light chopping. And I guess jack of all trades and master of none at some level.
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Oh yes; I see now. Yours is a much more demanding environment than mine.
Much !
 
precisionshootist said:
Why would you want Carbon Steel in the fixed blade for thrashing?
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Very few stainless steel have the toughness of carbon steels. Even the toughest stainless steel (stuff like INFI and Elmax) only have toughness equivalent to a moderate toughness carbon steel, they just require a lot less maintenance from corrosion resistance.
 
I love capitalism way too much to ever complain about the Medford Praetorian.

The definition of too overbuilt depends on either:
1.) what you are actually going to use the knife for.
2.) what you like and are able to realistically afford. Nothing wrong with wanting something mostly because of the weight of all that steel and titanium in the hand and the WHACLACK! when you open the thing. There will always be some things you can cut with it and if nothing else, it's always fun to see people's reaction to something that way over the top.
 
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