how tough??

RescueRiley

RescueRiley

Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
5,944
i know as survivalist type people we can obsess a bit over how tough our knives need to be...but honestly how strong does a knife really need to be to be a valid wilderness tool...I know there's alot of old bushman who are far more skiled than I'll eve be out there with an opinel or a mora...or maybe a case trapper or a lil finn....in my mind my belt knife is primarily used for bushcraft and fire prep type whittling, utility cutting, and doing messy things that I wouldn't want to gum up a folder on... the ability to split small kindling, could also be uesfull. but I guess I'm banking on the fact that I'll have other tools..

So for you all how tough do you think a belt blade needs to be, and what would do you expect it to do??
 
I know j williams likes to shoot his knives, and pound them through trucks! :eek:
Seriously though, I think your average fixed blade or folder is strong enough for most of the normal chores, if you need something tougher, use an axe. I got by with a Buck Woodsman for many years,and it is definately not a heavy duty knife.
 
Last edited:
Actually, it is pretty interactive. You adjust the type of activities you do depending on the gear you have with you. I don't try to chop when I'm humping around my opinel #7, but perform tasks that are suitable to that style of knife.

When I'm in the wilderness, there are quite a range of activities I can engage in. I've actually never been in the wilderness as a true survival situation, I'm usually there to do something pre-planned. If I bring a bunch of knives with me, chances are that I've brought them along to test them out. If I'm there to fish, then chances are all I will really use is a fillet knife.

Due to the fact that I have spent a lot of time in this forum and recognize the potential need for using a knife for more rigorous tasks in an emergency situation, then I do like to bring along some kind of all-rounder survival blade. For me, personally, I have developed sufficient confidence in 1/8" thick carbon knives as perfectly suitable for the range of survival tasks that I would envision using them for. I do view a knife as a legitimate tool for prepping wood for fire, shelter making etc. I don't always bring a hatchet or axe with me. In fact, since getting more into knives this past year, I don't bring an axe with me anymore unless I'm trying to stack wood for long term burning (e.g. multi-day at a base camp).

I think it basically revolves around a) your intended uses of the knife, b) what you have trained for and c) what you might anticipate using the knife for under a given survival scenario. All three points above are highly personalized and therefore you will get a different answer for each person.
 
To me if I'm in the bush and run out of food, I want to get out to civilization, not cut figure 4 traps etc. To me a survival knife needs to cut wood for a shelter or process firewood, 3" to 4" max, to survive a day or two or three. Therefore it should be sturdy enough for batoning and sharp enough to remove bark or cut points. Fine detail is not a priority. My JK Kephart that is 5.5" long and 5/32" thick is perfect for this application.
 
Good question.

I agree with Stomper. Most times what we/I pack is way over-kill. I am confident that if my Grandfather or Great Grandfather were still alive they would be very amused by what we "think" we need to survive and all the gear we/I carry with us into the woods.

I can honestly recall my Grandfather using and packing one of the butcher knives my Grandmother had in the kitchen and would field dress any game with it, or prepare what was needed in the camp with it.....take it back home, clean it up and put it back in the kitchen drawer, he also carried a folder all the time, and would use it as well and never thought twice about needing the "tanks" we strap on our sides these days. As Stomper mentioned too, if he had larger game to clean or was going out for and extended period of time into the woods he would take along an old hand forged hatchet.....the same one they used to cut the heads off chickens for various meals....in other words he had just a couple of tools that he depended on, and they were used in everyday life around the home as well.
 
The answer really depends on what you have and what you're doing. If you're a "classic woodsman" the knife doesn't have to be tough at all, since all the real work is done by your big gun, be it an axe, kukri, machete, etc. The knife is only for fine chores. So long as I go this route, I'd be ok with a hidden tang puukko or SAK.

However, if you're going the much talked about "only one sharp thingie" route, I'd seriously up the ante on how tough a knife I'd bring. Personally, in that scenario, I'd want a 6-9" knife, full, exposed tang, 3/16 thickness to feel comfortable.

I, however, am not a fan of the second scenario.
 
To my mind a knife is not a substitute for a proper chopping tool, so if I'm going anywhere remote I always take a machete/golok/axe/hatchet, depending on the type of wilderness. My Mora Clipper is used exclusively to cut things, a job it does extremely well.
 
Good topic!
Honestly, a lot depends on environment. Where I live (in oz) the temp ranges between -2C (unusually cold winter night) and 45C (uncommonly hot summer day). I have gone out after its been wet for a week with just a SAK and lit a hand drill fire with scavenged material. It took 2 attempts due to bad tinder (I was lazy). In these circumstances in my environment, a lowly opinel could do all the cutting you needed to survive forever (if you have the skills and health is okay), just look at what the aborigines had.
But the largest factor is if your cold/wet/hungry etc. Like you've fallen out of your canoe rather than had a 4WD breakdown. In this case all the "stressfull" things you do to a knife might be needed to get a fire going before you get to hypothermic.
To summarise, if your in an area you know and close to help, an Opinel is fine for game processing through to firemaking. But if your in a new area and fire is a huge factor to surviving the night, get the biggest toughest fixed blade you can (and keep a SAK in your pocket too). There's reasons why all stone age people started carrying axes or machetes as soon as they could get them. Some things don't change for good reasons, but a lot of them do.
 
i don't really depend on my knives to be particularly tough, i give the rough jobs to the axe or the new cold steel shovel.

for a long time i used an mora #1 for my primary woods knife, including batonning kindling and heavy whittling. it held up fine, it could come out of retirement fighting hard if i asked it to.

before the mora, i carried an opinel #7 as my primary woods knife, and i found that it carved notches, split kindling, and whittled spikes quite nicely.

now i have a stick tang puukko style knife. it is quite thick, around 3/16", but i wouldn't call it "heavy duty" like i would refer to a JK or Koyote. i take care of it, but i don't baby it, and it has held up fine for me (and its previous owner).

steel is amazingly tough, holding up to tasks that almost any other material would fail in. even when broken a knife is still full of utility, as i showed in an experiment over the summer...

in short, i want my knives to hold up to use, but i don't need them to be bombproof.
 
Knives definitely don't have to be as tough as it would first seem. I mean, getting lost in the woods isn't going to require me to use a knife for anything different than a normal camping trip mostly would. But I do prefer knives that are robust and slightly thicker than is probably needed.
 
RescueRiley said:
but honestly how strong does a knife really need to be to be a valid wilderness tool

So for you all how tough do you think a belt blade needs to be, and what would do you expect it to do??
Click to expand...

"Wilderness Tool"

We sort of say that a lot here and it sort of conjures up difft images for us all I guess.

I do a decent amount of hiking in the wilderness and in all those trips I've never really felt like I was testing the strength of the knife at all.:rolleyes:

Probably the main use for my knife in the wilderness is cutting up stuff to eat. Spreading hummus or pesto:thumbup::D

I've carved a few tent pegs, carved a few notches in sticks to hang my cooking pot, whittled up a few hatfuls of limbs for kindling and on rare occasions batoned a little wood when it was too wet to get a fire going easy. I don't think I've ever batoned anything as big as I have batoned at home just TESTING a knife:o

Oh and I've cut a few briars out of the path or limbs out of the way on occasion, and also always use my blade to spark the firesteel:cool:

I've used my Nessmuk to stir stuff and used it as an eating implement, so in that way that design actually has an added use:thumbup:

Early on I seemed to gravitate toward thicker blades, but now seems to me like anything over 1/8 is sort of overkill.

I DO like a longer blade than a folder since some bread and stuff is fairly wide and it cuts it better. One time a buddy packed a whole cantelope 2 miles in and I was the only one with a big enough blade to fully cut it:)

As far as toughness or strength I guess the two things I think about are is the steel good enough to hold an edge for several days w/o resharpening and is the handle tough enough to not get dented. I like wood, but really micarta is better if you put it down too hard on a fire ring or drop it rocks won't dent it like wood.
 
RescueRiley said:
So for you all how tough do you think a belt blade needs to be, and what would do you expect it to do??
Click to expand...

It needs to be tough enough to handle basic cutting without falling apart, chipping at the edge and suffering other such damage. Basic cutting is, well, I guess I shouldn't need to explain that in this forum! :D Just plain cutting things, whether that be an animal's hide or small tree trunks to get some shelter poles or aids for climbing. Not chopping, or batoning, or prying, just cutting stuff. If it could take these things, that's a nice and potentially very useful bonus, but not needed.

A basic, decently made stick tang puukko or even a flimsy folder like a SAK is tough enough for me, especially if I get to bring along an axe. But I still value the tougher knives, as well, and tend to generally carry a combo of some sorts that consists of 1) a smallish fixed blade knife like a good puukko for small precision work, 2) a large knife or axe of the very tough kind for impact work and general abuse if I feel like it can save me time and effort.
 
I think at some point a knife stops being a tool only, and starts becoming jewelry and/or a toy and/or a security blanket.

I also believe that if your able to keep your self alive in a bad situation using the survival knife of your dreams, you will pretty much be at a skill level that you can do it with nearly any knife.
Chances are you will make it even with out a knife. ;)

This also means that if your going to die with a mora, I'd put my money on that your going to die with a busse or fallkniven any how.
 
spreading Hummus
hike15sq8.jpg


cutting up some wood for morning coffee
skookwoodlf2.jpg

skookwood2gy7.jpg


Bushcraft pesto spreading
:o
bushcpestocc9.jpg


Ramps dug with whittled digging stick and prepped with the blade.
chike16ei9.jpg


Oysters cut from high with F1
2006_1117Image0027.jpg


2006_1117Image0032.jpg
 
And here's my uber tough, 1/4" thick Mad Dog used to spread chicken salad on a pita :D
DSC00514.jpg
 
Depending on the individuals skill levels, it is relatively easy to get a fire going without the use of an edged tool, even in wet conditions.

Of course, the knife makes the everyday chores in the bush, much easier for us and when conditions turn for the worse, it's good to know that we have the advantages, that a well designed fixed blade knife gives us.

That said, my main tool in the Bush has mostly been a Victorinox OH Trekker and until recently, my main squeeze fixed blade, was the Mora 2000. If I lived in a different environment, like the cold and icy environment of Canada, I would add a tool that could handle much heavier wood working, like an axe.
 
RescueRiley said:
i know as survivalist type people we can obsess a bit over how tough our knives need to be...but honestly how strong does a knife really need to be to be a valid wilderness tool...I know there's alot of old bushman who are far more skiled than I'll eve be out there with an opinel or a mora...or maybe a case trapper or a lil finn....in my mind my belt knife is primarily used for bushcraft and fire prep type whittling, utility cutting, and doing messy things that I wouldn't want to gum up a folder on... the ability to split small kindling, could also be uesfull. but I guess I'm banking on the fact that I'll have other tools..

So for you all how tough do you think a belt blade needs to be, and what would do you expect it to do??
Click to expand...

Exellent question Riley.

When I was young, I thought the end all woods knife was my boy scout leather handle Case sheath knife. About 4 1/4 inches long and 1/8 inch thick. In truth it did everything I needed to do, including woodcrafts for my merit badges.

Then I became a knife knut. A Randall 14 became my minimum knife, and if a knife wouldn't chop through a giant redwood in 5 minutes, it was for suburban wusses. Thank the Lord I outgrew that stage of temporary insanity.

Look back at what the poeple who really did go into the wilderness used. If a Busse is needed for the art of battoning, how did the north American indians survive thousands of years before the white man came with steel tools. Those flaked obsidian and flint blades get real brittle past 2 inches. And yet they had a thriving culture using only the bare minimum of cutting tools of flint.

The trappers and canoe voyagers penitrating deep into the Americaan and Canadian wilderness used what was basicly overgrown butcher knives. Simple thin carbon blades 1/8 and under. When I was on a cross country trip in 2000, I stopped at the fur trade museum, the mountain man museum, Bent's Old Fort historic site and museum, and I never saw one large knife that may have been the equivelent of some of the bigger knives I see in use today. Most looked like what my grandmother used in her kitchen.

Today in some of the most hostile third world wilderness, one sees thin bladed machete's, bolo's, Panga's, all at the most 1/8 stock with most going more like 3/32. When we took our Costa Rica eco tour in the jungle, all I saw used by the local guides were 12 inch Tramontia and other brand machete's with a sak in a belt pouch.

I think the ultra heavy duty "baton an oak tree" knives are only in the relm of knife buff's who obsess over thier knives being up to any Walter Mitty task.


If the run of the mill mountain man used simple butcher knives in combo with maybe a 'hawk, to survive by choice in the rocky mountain winters, I see no reason to go beyond that. Getting down to brass tacks, they used pretty much the same thing as the Ice Man did 5'000 years ago. A knife as a simple cutting tool, and a small hatchet.

I think any knife over 1/8 stock is overkill in todays world. Short of zomby killing, or Schwartzenegger movies, all you really need is to cut something. Cutting tool for cutting, chopping tool for chopping.

I agree with the poster that our grandfathers would truely be amused at some of our knife obsession.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top