how tough??

Hard to peg. Middle of the road I guess. I'm not into low hardness blades despite the inherent toughness that introduces. I'm not too keen on adding a great deal of mass to add toughness either. On the other hand I've stood on a bloke's disposable knife [left on the floor, not one of those dickhead hammer it in a tree and stand on it trials] and it bent. I didn't like him much so I just bent it back to roughly right, smiled to myself, and put it back where I found it.
 
I'm a lazy survival guy, so I don't need no big honkin custom.

I carry an Ontario Pilots survival knife. 1095 carbon steel. It can rust, at which point I use a brillo pad to clean it.

Somehow, I am able to sharpen it to the point that it cuts stuff.

It is rat tail tang, but the handle seems to have miraculously stayed attached.

There is nothing I am going to do in the wilderness that it can't handle. Whether Car camping, building a shelter or gutting game.

I have never batoned anything and don't plan on doing so in the future. Really, I am not selling cords of firewood. Get the fire built and throw those logs on there, the fire will reduce the logs all on its own.

That being said, if you can afford a 20" super whiz bang custom made of unobtanium, go for it! I'll have a beer while I watch ya baton through some oak.
 
jackknife said:
Exellent question Riley.

When I was young, I thought the end all woods knife was my boy scout leather handle Case sheath knife. About 4 1/4 inches long and 1/8 inch thick. In truth it did everything I needed to do, including woodcrafts for my merit badges.

Then I became a knife knut. A Randall 14 became my minimum knife, and if a knife wouldn't chop through a giant redwood in 5 minutes, it was for suburban wusses. Thank the Lord I outgrew that stage of temporary insanity.

Look back at what the poeple who really did go into the wilderness used. If a Busse is needed for the art of battoning, how did the north American indians survive thousands of years before the white man came with steel tools. Those flaked obsidian and flint blades get real brittle past 2 inches. And yet they had a thriving culture using only the bare minimum of cutting tools of flint.

The trappers and canoe voyagers penitrating deep into the Americaan and Canadian wilderness used what was basicly overgrown butcher knives. Simple thin carbon blades 1/8 and under. When I was on a cross country trip in 2000, I stopped at the fur trade museum, the mountain man museum, Bent's Old Fort historic site and museum, and I never saw one large knife that may have been the equivelent of some of the bigger knives I see in use today. Most looked like what my grandmother used in her kitchen.

Today in some of the most hostile third world wilderness, one sees thin bladed machete's, bolo's, Panga's, all at the most 1/8 stock with most going more like 3/32. When we took our Costa Rica eco tour in the jungle, all I saw used by the local guides were 12 inch Tramontia and other brand machete's with a sak in a belt pouch.

I think the ultra heavy duty "baton an oak tree" knives are only in the relm of knife buff's who obsess over thier knives being up to any Walter Mitty task.


If the run of the mill mountain man used simple butcher knives in combo with maybe a 'hawk, to survive by choice in the rocky mountain winters, I see no reason to go beyond that. Getting down to brass tacks, they used pretty much the same thing as the Ice Man did 5'000 years ago. A knife as a simple cutting tool, and a small hatchet.

I think any knife over 1/8 stock is overkill in todays world. Short of zomby killing, or Schwartzenegger movies, all you really need is to cut something. Cutting tool for cutting, chopping tool for chopping.

I agree with the poster that our grandfathers would truely be amused at some of our knife obsession.
Click to expand...

Dont much agree with this. They didnt take this stuff b/c it wasnt available. I bet that museums gear would have been differant if things that are available now were available then.:thumbup: You cant say, nobody can.

That said, I like my knives 3/16. I dont think its because they need to stab car doors, baton cinder blocks, or pry apart a VW. I just like the weight and ballance.

I think a knife needs to be as tuff as you want it to be. A 1/16 blade is just as good as a 1/4in one. Its the users preferance.

Alot of people can get by with piece of crap knives or just a SAK, and do it for many years, however I like my 3/16 customs, not because they are neccisary, but because they arent if that makes sense.

j
 
kgd, hit it on the head. You can adjust your technique to fit the knife you have on you when you need a knife.

However to pre-choose I would have a hard time trying to answer that. I have gone afield very often with just my Mora clipper and really never gave a thought as to whether it was tough enough or not. I have never broke one. Many folks have made it through with a folder or a slippie. I guess to try a definition I would say a good brand name knife with good steel in the four to six inch blade range and 1/8 inch thick, would be a worthy choice.

While it may be hard to find a knife that is to tough, I think most of us sort of go overboard in that department. I have only ever broke two knives in 60+ years. Both were folders and both involved a rock, and both were the same day. There was no intelligence involved what-so-ever.:o:o:o
 
J.....you make some very good points no doubt, just wanted to add how I interpreted what jackknife was saying. I think his point was that they "made do" with a lot less and did quite well at it.....and I agree with that, just my take on his comments, not trying to doubt or question your thoughts. It is my opinion that we/I tend to feel like we just have to have the latest and greatest, we/I want, and want.....but to me there is a big difference between want and need. I am certainly finding that to be very true during our trying economic times. I don't think you have to sink mega bucks into a knife to have a good one, and why do we/I need thirty or more, seems we're searching for the ever elusive excaliber......insert smile here and fingers pointing at myself too. Just my humble opinion, nothing more.
 
thundermoon said:
.....but to me there is a big difference between want and need.
Click to expand...

This is extremely true. :thumbup: Humans need very little to survive most environments, but want a lot of stuff because it is fun or makes survival easier, less time-consuming and more enjoyable. We don't most often need extremely tough knives, but sometimes they can be rather useful to save time and they're certainly fun for most of us, I'd wager. :D And in some very rare situations, they may even turn out to be "necessary", but most knife enthusiasts will never see such a situation.

I'm sure my grandfather would have thought my Busses look ridiculous and are too large to be good for carving wood. He would've thought them unnecessary and even a bit ridiculous. And I'm pretty sure he would've found them pretty fun to use for other things, and even thought one of the larger models would come in pretty handy to a man who didn't have an axe for some reason.
 
thundermoon said:
Good question.

I agree with Stomper. Most times what we/I pack is way over-kill. I am confident that if my Grandfather or Great Grandfather were still alive they would be very amused by what we "think" we need to survive and all the gear we/I carry with us into the woods.

I can honestly recall my Grandfather using and packing one of the butcher knives my Grandmother had in the kitchen and would field dress any game with it, or prepare what was needed in the camp with it.....take it back home, clean it up and put it back in the kitchen drawer, he also carried a folder all the time, and would use it as well and never thought twice about needing the "tanks" we strap on our sides these days. As Stomper mentioned too, if he had larger game to clean or was going out for and extended period of time into the woods he would take along an old hand forged hatchet.....the same one they used to cut the heads off chickens for various meals....in other words he had just a couple of tools that he depended on, and they were used in everyday life around the home as well.
Click to expand...

I also grew up around Folks/Family like this and they thought they were well equipped compared those before them.

I think this just shows how Wealthy we have become to have all of this Equipment to do something those a century or centuries ago, didn't need survive in the wild.

In many ways, these were better people, who could fend for themselves in the Wild, with a lot less Money.
 
thundermoon said:
J.....you make some very good points no doubt, just wanted to add how I interpreted what jackknife was saying. I think his point was that they "made do" with a lot less and did quite well at it.....and I agree with that, just my take on his comments, not trying to doubt or question your thoughts. It is my opinion that we/I tend to feel like we just have to have the latest and greatest, we/I want, and want.....but to me there is a big difference between want and need. I am certainly finding that to be very true during our trying economic times. I don't think you have to sink mega bucks into a knife to have a good one, and why do we/I need thirty or more, seems we're searching for the ever elusive excaliber......insert smile here and fingers pointing at myself too. Just my humble opinion, nothing more.
Click to expand...

Good stuff bro:thumbup: I agree with you totally. I see what you and jacknife are saying. Cool.:cool:

BTW, jacknife, I totally didnt mean to come across like a dick, sorry if I did.:D
 
I don't know about the Grandpa comments.

I think my Grandpa would have loved to have had a Caly3, even though he skinned a ton of possums and decapitated thousands of chickens with old rusty knives his whole life. I think he would even have forgiven it being from Japan. :-)

I gave my father-in-law, no spring chicken either and who coincidentally lives in the backwoods of Japan, a SureFire 6P for Christmas. He looked at me and said, "You bought me a flashlight?" Then we clicked it on. My mother-in-law says it hasn't left his coat pocket since, and she's getting pretty irritated with him blinding her every few minutes like he was an eight-year-old boy again.

If someone came out with some "magical/Star Trek" knife tomorrow that NEVER needed sharpening, looked like it belonged in a museum, could slice rebar like butter, and had some measure that made it impossible to lose, would you buy one? How much would you pay for it?

It's a poor workman who blames his tools, so I buy the best tools I can and accept any failings past that as my fault.

But yes, me, my backwoods father-in-law and Grandpa's ghost all snicker at a company that would give their knives names like "Battle Mistress" and "HellRazor"...
 
thermocline said:
........................But yes, me, my backwoods father-in-law and Grandpa's ghost all snicker at a company that would give their knives names like "Battle Mistress" and "HellRazor"...
Click to expand...


Okay, now that's funny, no matter what side of the fence you're on in this discussion:D
Even though they do make some good looking knives......that I regretfully just can't afford.
 
Last edited:
I usually don't beat on my knives too much. On many trips I can get away without even actually needing a knife (but I still have to have a bunch on me). You can use rocks, your strength, or other trees in place of a knife if you need to.
 
I'm not sure, it must just be a fad, but what's the deal with guys espousing the use of the flimsiest gear they can find? Is it the perceived myth that if someone has stout gear they don't know what they're doing? Is it just being too lazy to carry anything that weighs more than 4 oz?

The constant referral to "our grandfathers" or "old timers", Mountain men, etc carrying what we would call thin, flimsy knives. Sure, but look what they were using them for: mostly skinning, butchering and eating. For most of what we'd call "hard use" for a knife, they didn't use knives for at all. For much of the world the axe was king. Yet how many of the champions of the tiny blade consider the axe too heavy to carry?

Oh yes, let us not forget such knives like the Hudson Bay or Bowie carried by them old timers that didn't know what they were doing. Ah yes, those are the ones that didn't carry an axe. Funny how often we see that a combination of heavy duty tool and light, fine tool rears it's head, eh?

I don't know about yours, but it seems my grandfathers and father even, knew that you carried an axe or large knife with you. You just did it. You didn't complain about the weight because you knew it was Worth It. As a kid, it was a mark of shame to not be ALLOWED to carry an axe (to avoid any possible objections, the term axe includes hatchets). But then again, my grandfather and father could carry more weight in tools because they carried less on their waistline?

Dunno, I guess in time the fad will switch back to "if you're carrying less than a Battle Mistress, you'll die.
 
I'm with ya Cpl.

But it was a different time.

If I get hungry out there and shoot an Elk now, I'm gonna be in big trouble.

Then, it was food, now ya have to pay a thousand bucks for a permit and "harvest" it. You can't even kill the thing, ya have to "harvest" it.
 
People get far to emotionally involved in what is a pretty unimportant issue. Pretty much anything will work, and whatever you have found that lets you smooth it with a minimal of effort is fully endorsed by me. Many backpackers go their entire lives with nothing more that a SAK, they're bringing all the gear that they need, nothing wrong with that, it's about packing what you feel is most practical. I think I've found what works best for me, a Mora and a Fiskars hatchet, this gives me a good practicality for weight and lets me enjoy nature my way, but as time goes on, or if I should venture into different environments, I may very well change my gear and tool selection. :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
J. I wondered about that statement, To each his own but "some people get by with a piece of crap?":rolleyes::)
 
I always wonder why people keep bringing this up... Use whatever you like. If it doesn't break, it's tough enough.

My uncles and grandfather would never have used a knife worth more than $10. They also viewed them as tools, and would think *nothing* of snapping them by batoning, using them as a screwdriver, or just dropping them and stepping on them. Knives had no value, including sentimental, to them. I tend to value mine much more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top