how tough??

There have been a lot of good points raised in this thread. One thing
I'd add is that many of the artifact knives from the Mountain Man era
(late 1800's) are broken. I wouldn't necessarily base your decision on
what to select as a survival knife based on what some other guys
managed to break.

On the other hand, I've never broken a SAK.

 
sodak said:
My uncles and grandfather would never have used a knife worth more than $10. They also viewed them as tools, and would think *nothing* of snapping them by batoning, using them as a screwdriver, or just dropping them and stepping on them. Knives had no value, including sentimental, to them. I tend to value mine much more.
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Mmh. Must have been one of them flatland rich kids. :D Growin' up in the hills of Missourah, ten bucks was a fortune, and the ONLY times you were allowed to cry wuz when yer dog died or yer knife broke...
 
A general consensus believes that most of the "old-timers" used thin steel for their knives, backed up by an axe. There is something that both side are missing here. The steel that we have available today is much MUCH toughter than the simple carbons used say from 1880 to 1960's. Think about 1/16th O-1. I have tested it in my shop after heat treat by bending it 45 degrees and it sprang BACK to the original shape! Then there is the 3v steel offered by crucible and it nears the toughness of s7 tool steel while exceeding d2 in edge hardness.
I have have seen 1/8 1084 heat treated in my shop hold until it reached 90 degrees. SO once again we are back to the heat treat making the knife. I would rather have a thin piece of simple carbon well heat treated than a thicker more exotic steel poorly treated...
 
Here is 1084 simple carbon after James Williams heat treated it the way I taught him....
 

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Great point Mark....I was thinking about this earlier today before you posted. I was wondering about heat treats in the old days, along with steel composition. Im sure their were fine bladesmiths in the past, but you can only take your materials so far.
 
The composition was not that great. For example, when the Japanese made their steel in clay klins, it came out in large blooms, some of the bloom very high in carbon, other parts very low. It was up to the bladesmith to mix the high and low carbon together with welding heats.
Today, Crucible steels mixes their steels and spins the crucible and they can also control the atmosphere much better. The result is a much more consistant product.
The bottom line in this debate is we have much better steels readily available to the bladesmith than ever before. We can try to compare todays thin to the oldtimers thin, but as a general rule our steels are better today than 100 years ago...
 
As to heat treats, I still do it the way a blade smith would have many years ago with an oil quench and then a triple temper, however, many of the steels we use today are "air hardening" or require controlled processes and cool down periods in the quench and tempering processes. The next step I am pursuing in my own shop is a more controlled quench and temper cycle that will invovle an electric klin. The old smithy did it by eye and based on experience in a coal fired forge. This is why if you do your own heat treat you need to test your knives to make sure the heat treat was succesful.
The bottom line is our steels are better and so are our methods, so it really is not fair to do a head to head comparison from years ago..
 
Howe tough do I like a knife to be? Tough enough to not break under heavy use.

True most of the time most of the knives I may choose to carry wont be called upon to perform so. However I need them to be able to cut the mustard if the chips hit the fan.

One of the toughest most underrated knives I own is na old camillus pilots survival knife which I scandi'd the edge on. While homeless I used it to open cans as well as a chisel and much else. I still have it and it is still one of my favorites.

I don't usualy carry an axe as I prefer my M43 kukri more. It fills more niches fro me than an axe. It is definitely one tough piece fro I have flexed it over 30 degrees in use and seen it snap back to true without damage.

I use my knives as tools and require them to be up to the job.
 
I love these debates :
What steel is the best?
thick vs thin
what steel should I have my next knife in?

I always respond this way , HEAT TREAT, HEAT TREAT, HEAT TREAT ... LOL
 
Great post Mark. I cant wait to get down there and learn some more from you. Soon brotha.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
I'm not sure, it must just be a fad, but what's the deal with guys espousing the use of the flimsiest gear they can find? Is it the perceived myth that if someone has stout gear they don't know what they're doing? Is it just being too lazy to carry anything that weighs more than 4 oz?

The constant referral to "our grandfathers" or "old timers", Mountain men, etc carrying what we would call thin, flimsy knives. Sure, but look what they were using them for: mostly skinning, butchering and eating. For most of what we'd call "hard use" for a knife, they didn't use knives for at all. For much of the world the axe was king. Yet how many of the champions of the tiny blade consider the axe too heavy to carry?

Oh yes, let us not forget such knives like the Hudson Bay or Bowie carried by them old timers that didn't know what they were doing. Ah yes, those are the ones that didn't carry an axe. Funny how often we see that a combination of heavy duty tool and light, fine tool rears it's head, eh?

I don't know about yours, but it seems my grandfathers and father even, knew that you carried an axe or large knife with you. You just did it. You didn't complain about the weight because you knew it was Worth It. As a kid, it was a mark of shame to not be ALLOWED to carry an axe (to avoid any possible objections, the term axe includes hatchets). But then again, my grandfather and father could carry more weight in tools because they carried less on their waistline?

Dunno, I guess in time the fad will switch back to "if you're carrying less than a Battle Mistress, you'll die.
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I know I have said this on here before, but my dad was a prospector for years, and he kept an axe in his base camp, but never carried it. He carried a folding knife and nothing more. In fact his first fixed blade that wasn't a kitchen knife was probably around the time I was born, in the late seventies, and it was a mora.

He used to spend a lot of time away from base camp (which was a solo camp supplied every three weeks by helicopter) and just packed a pocket knife. A couple of years ago I asked him what kind and he said, "oh, whatever, you know. A pocket knife, that had pretty springy steel."

I have his father's knife...it is a Kabar folder with a clip point and a skinner/filleter. He lived in the back country of BC for about 80% of his life and didn't carry an axe or a big knife. He would have laughed at the idea that axes are for carrying.

I love axes, maybe more even than knives. But of the two guys I know with the most, longest, most isolated wilderness experience, neither ever gave much thought to knives or axes.

And really, all it has to do is cut. It's not a particularly complicated machine. I think it's pretty easy to overthink tool selection, particularly when your hobby is collecting a specific tool.
 
Obviously, there are extremes at each end of the spectrum. Just like anything else, usually the best product for most lies at neither end of the extremes. While one could get by with almost nothing, you may be better off having a little more at your disposal.

The ones whom I respect the most are those who have the skill to use their tools effectively, regardless of the tools they bring. If you carry a 4 1/2 lb axe, and can make it sing, I'm impressed. If a person can't use their tools, then it doesn't really matter what tools they happen to be. Really, survival is about the person, rather than the tools. Sometimes that means knowing which tools to bring, other times it is about knowing how to use them.
 
IMHO, a knife should be compact and light enough that you will always have it with you. It should have simple uncomplicated lines and a handle that you can use for long periods. It should be durable and hold an edge well. I should keep it maintained and understand the limits of the materials.

For survival use, I want a knife that will do general cutting chores, aid in fire making and shelter building, clean small game and general food prep (should I be so lucky).

Light batoning is about the most abuse I would want to subject a knife to. Actions like digging and prying are best left for sharp sticks. I want the knife for cutting. I can't imagine being in a tight spot and have your blade snap from doing something dumb with it. You could probably hear Darwin chuckle right after that.

To those ends, anything from a mora on would do the trick. It's fun to have good tools, but the knowledge to use them is the thing. And a knife is just one part of a system of survival gear. Keep it simple and good. YOU need to be tough, the knife needs to be sharp :)
 
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not tough at all and knife is just a tool.
For me, dealing with risk factors means not to face them but to avoid them, and that is because I'm not tough.
Instead, I try to be clever. I really do. But sadly I'm still quite silly and stupid though. :D
 
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