http://www.knifetests.com/ not kind to BK9 Knife

Guyon, that was your first post in this thread that didn't contain a ad hominem comment or a distraction, thanks for that.

I was not aware of that post by Noss, but he never says he is claiming warranty.
I think he was sending the knife back to the manufacturers for their interest.
Claiming a warranty after you break your knife on purpose is wrong.

I think that knowing which knives are stronger than others is beneficial, because chit happens and you may someday have to push your knife.
Knifetests doesn't at all affect my knife buying, many of my knives have never been tested and I still use them with confidence.
His Scrapper 6 test did introduce me to the Busse and Busse family knives of which I have 2 Busse's and 6 family knives.

If you guys don't think the tests are worth the internet they take up, then don't watch them.
Why the big fuss?
 
macgregor22, I just call them like I see them. Maybe my assertions hit a sensitive spot if you are a fan of The Great Hockey Mask. Maybe you're put off by my comment that The Great Hockey Mask isn't the brightest light in the shed. However, if you go back and actually read his posts here at BFC, you see that his literacy skills are pretty poor. Granted, literacy isn't always a true indicator of intelligence. But combine these skills with his understanding of actual testing and his overall attitude toward his critics, and I'll stand by my assessment until proven otherwise.

In terms of the warranty question, what part of this post do you not understand?

The Great Hockey Mask said:
I am also sending back the Cold Steel Bushman and K-Bar 14 1/4 Bowie We will see what happens. I'm boxing them up now with full info on What I did with them. Video links etc. and my testing results. I will hide nothing. I will do this on all future knife tests. I will post full results. people can make up there own mind on how a company will truly stand behind there knives.
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Despite the misspelling, he claims he wants to test warranties, plain and simple.
 
Well you started your post with a distraction but you finished with a point.
His literacy has nothing to do with the tests.

If he asserted that he was going to claim the warranty he still never has.

You still havent answered my question.
Why do you care?
 
I just wonder what people today expect of their knives.

Those of us who have been using knives for a long time know what the limits are and have different standards of what constitutes a good knife.

A knife is a tool used for cutting and/or piercing. Strength is a good quality but many of the steels we have today are considerably better than what was available in the 19th century, mainly because the quality is more consistent. Edge retention and the quality of edge are more important to me than the ability of the knife to survive being mounted in a vise and hit with a sledgehammer. If I can pry open a deer sternum or turtle with my knife and do some light firewood splitting, that's plenty strong enough for me.

It's a tool. You pick the right tool for the job. I would no sooner use a knife to chop through a concrete block than I would use a chainsaw to pick tomatoes.

For most of our history we used knives made of stone or bone. I doubt a neolithic hunter ever wondered to himself if he could chop through a stalagmite with his flint dagger, and then rated his knife poorly because it couldn't. He knew better. It was the wrong tool for the job.
 
Wolf_1989 said:
I just wonder what people today expect of their knives.

Those of us who have been using knives for a long time know what the limits are and have different standards of what constitutes a good knife.

A knife is a tool used for cutting and/or piercing. Strength is a good quality but many of the steels we have today are considerably better than what was available in the 19th century, mainly because the quality is more consistent. Edge retention and the quality of edge are more important to me than the ability of the knife to survive being mounted in a vise and hit with a sledgehammer. If I can pry open a deer sternum or turtle with my knife and do some light firewood splitting, that's plenty strong enough for me.

It's a tool. You pick the right tool for the job. I would no sooner use a knife to chop through a concrete block than I would use a chainsaw to pick tomatoes.

For most of our history we used knives made of stone or bone. I doubt a neolithic hunter ever wondered to himself if he could chop through a stalagmite with his flint dagger, and then rated his knife poorly because it couldn't. He knew better. It was the wrong tool for the job.
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This sums it up beautifully. The activities of knife-breaking stunt artists like "Noss" create unrealistic expectations in the minds of relatively ignorant knife users, who then go on to complain when their knives break after they abuse the -- usually whining something about how the Big Evil Manufacturer misled them by daring to indicate the knife was intended for "hard use" (while most likely never imagining that "hard use" would include hammering the knife through a brick).

Plus, I cannot have any respect for, nor take seriously, anyone who tries to bill himself as a knife destruction expert, complete with discussion forum and web page and so on, who refuses to reveal his identity. It tells me he has something to hide and cannot truly stand behind his work. It's dishonest and suspicious. He's been given the chance to take off his stupid mask and he refuses. That should remove him from consideration as far as any serious knife user is concerned.
 
Guyon said:
How do you know?
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I don't, but the manufacturers would have said something.
He also has never said he will or has claimed a warranty.
How do you know he has?


Guyon said:
See post 10 in this thread. It was answered on page 1.
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Guyon said:
Problem with his "tests" is that he misleads some people new to knives that the raison d'être of a blade is to cut through blocks and steel plate. Folks here at BFC have admitted that they don't buy a knife until noss4 has demolished one like it. Hopefully, they wise up after a while. :p
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If a person believes the raison d'être of his/her knife is to cut through cinder blocks and steel plate then I say let them, people believed stuff like that before Noss's tests.
Now if a manufacturer claims that their knife is the be all end all and can to those things(as some manufacturers do) what is wrong with being a third party and validating or disproving those claims?
Doesn't that educate the ignorant.
 
Sharp Phil said:
This sums it up beautifully. The activities of knife-breaking stunt artists like "Noss" create unrealistic expectations in the minds of relatively ignorant knife users, who then go on to complain when their knives break after they abuse the -- usually whining something about how the Big Evil Manufacturer misled them by daring to indicate the knife was intended for "hard use" (while most likely never imagining that "hard use" would include hammering the knife through a brick).

Plus, I cannot have any respect for, nor take seriously, anyone who tries to bill himself as a knife destruction expert, complete with discussion forum and web page and so on, who refuses to reveal his identity. It tells me he has something to hide and cannot truly stand behind his work. It's dishonest and suspicious. He's been given the chance to take off his stupid mask and he refuses. That should remove him from consideration as far as any serious knife user is concerned.
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See I take the opposite approach. If I was going to do something with a knife (or any other tool) which would be considered extreme hard use (abuse), I would pick something cheap and easily replaceable because I know odds are pretty good I'd break it, or at least permanently ruin it.

Say for example I absolutely had to cut through a concrete block with a blade. I'd pick a cheap Tramontina machete instead of a very expensive true Bizen-made Nihonto katana. If I broke the machete - and I probably would - who cares?
 
macgregor22 said:
I don't, but the manufacturers would have said something.
He also has never said he will or has claimed a warranty.
How do you know he has?
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Well, let's see. I read a statement indicating that he was boxing up knives in order to send them back to manufacturers in order to test warranties. Have you read a statement indicating that he changed his mind? Also, why do you assume that the manufacturers would go out of their way to post/report a matter with a private individual?
 
Guyon said:
Well, let's see. I read a statement indicating that he was boxing up knives in order to send them back to manufacturers in order to test warranties. Have you read a statement indicating that he changed his mind? Also, why do you assume that the manufacturers would go out of their way to post/report a matter with a private individual?
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He never said that he would try to claim warranty in that post.
If he ever thought about doing it he must have thought twice, because the warranty is not part of the testing procedure.

He only sends the knife back if the manufacturer requests to have it sent back.

I have seen pictures of his broken knives.

Why don't you guys just email Noss with your questions?
Seems like a solution.
 
macgregor22 said:
He never said that he would try to claim warranty in that post.
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macgregor22, might I ask why you're making so many assumptions and excuses for The Great Hockey Mask?

Also, I'm curious how you can interpret this line in any fashion other than warranty-related.

people can make up there own mind on how a company will truly stand behind there knives.
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macgregor22 said:
Why don't you guys just email Noss with your questions?
Seems like a solution.
Click to expand...

What questions? :confused: If I have questions, I'll ask someone who is an expert.

noss4 and I have exchanged pleasantries before. Let's just say that the conversation helped confirm some of my assertions in this thread. No need to go down that road again.
 
Guyon said:
macgregor22, might I ask why you're making so many assumptions and excuses for The Great Hockey Mask?
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Well because I want to find out what the fuss is about and see what other people have to think.
I watch and enjoy the tests and understand what they are, I don't have any delusions about knives and I don't care about Noss's identity.
I'm wondering why you are making so many assumptions about Noss.

Guyon said:
Also, I'm curious how you can interpret this line in any fashion other than warranty-related.
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He may of asserted or implied that he would over two years ago but he didn't and doesn't today.

Guyon said:
noss4 and I have exchanged pleasantries before. Let's just say that the conversation helped confirm some of my assertions in this thread. No need to go down that road again.
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Go on.... :D
 
macgregor22 said:
He may of asserted or implied that he would over two years ago but he didn't and doesn't today.
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This is pretty silly. You just admitted a few posts ago that you don't really know what noss4 did as far as sending back knives, but here you are again arguing that you do know. Which is it?

You want to know what I think? Here is a beautifully expressed opinion, probably stated better than I could have stated it myself. However, I have raised similar points in the past, and I agree with Broos down the line. Despite such critiques, which have come up often, people continue to put a lot of stock in The Great Hockey Mask's destructions, to the point that they consider him some kind of expert on blade steel and knife construction. So The Great Hockey Mask continues to break knives. The whole dynamic puzzles me.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6370952&postcount=342

Broos said:
Ugh, they actually measure pressure when they do those tests - doesn't do much good if you don't even know how much gunpowder you used in the shell or the pressure that resulted in the failure. And it also wouldn't tell you much if you used the same brass case or the same chamber damaged by a previous shot for every test (cumulative damage factor).

To compare the videos to real destructive testing, which is by the way being used less and less all the time, reveals a poor understanding of real testing. Google "boeing 787 wing box" to see a real destructive test. This is a test that can tell you something. Even the simplest tool test is done with much thought & effort to measure the quality that they want to test for. And they can defend their results. Feel free to defend the videos if you wish, but there is zero real product or material tests done in a similar fashion anywhere in industry or by testing agencies. Not one.

If you want to test how long a knife can be beat on with a steel hammer using varying impact locations and varying impact forces, then you should test a number of specimens before making conclusions, due to the random nature of the test.

If you want to test how well a knife can be used to batoned by a log into wood, then you should test by batoning with wood into wood.

If you really want to get fancy and learn even more, than devise a way to make the test repeatable (this IS an actual requirement in real testing, you know).

One test will not tell you the same thing as the other. It is likely that some could withstand 10 years of being hit by wood, and break after 10 hits with a steel hammer into a concrete block.

And it is entirely possible that the knife that breaks when used as a pry bar is the strongest pry bar, but you won't know that without measuring the force. You might think the knife that bent and then slipped out of the pry is better, but it failed (bent) with much less force than the knife that broke. And would you rather have a broken tip or a bent tip on your "survival hard use" knife?

I'm not trying to set an unrealistic level for testing, but there should be some thought on what you want to find out, and how to make a test measure it. BEFORE testing. And without repeatability, a test really doesn't tell you very much.
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macgregor22 said:
Well because I want to find out what the fuss is about and see what other people have to think.
I watch and enjoy the tests and understand what they are, I don't have any delusions about knives and I don't care about Noss's identity.
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Here is the problem as I see it.

If the guy wants to play silly games and hide behind masks and video his silly knife stunts, that's fine, no problem there, everyone needs a hobby.

Unfortunately people new to knives and the gullible could be easily fooled into thinking this nonsense has anything more than mild entertainment value. They are misleading. Perhaps you might have the experience, knowledge and critical thinking skills to allow you to distinguish between what might be useful information and what is arrant nonsense, unfortunately many other don't.

It's snake oil.

To be honest, I don't care all that much, caveat emptor and all that, but I get mildly annoyed when people try to convince me that his nonsense has any value.
 
You know what? I think Ethan put it best. I'm going to bow to his wisdom and bow out of this one. :D

Ethan Becker said:
Well he does appear to be enjoying himself and I suppose it keeps him off the streets and out of the bars........

ethan
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Guyon said:
This is pretty silly. You just admitted a few posts ago that you don't really know what noss4 did as far as sending back knives, but here you are again arguing that you do know. Which is it?
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Please Guyon, I can split hairs with you all day but you took my response wrong.
I don't know if he sends them back or keeps them.
He implied that he would over two years ago, but he doesn't(imply) today.
Neither of us know what he does with them, not you or me.

Guyon said:
You want to know what I think? Here is a beautifully expressed opinion, probably stated better than I could have stated it myself. However, I have raised similar points in the past, and I agree with Broos down the line.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6370952&postcount=342
Click to expand...

I agree fully with Broos post.

Guyon said:
Despite such critiques, which have come up often, people continue to put a lot of stock in The Great Hockey Mask's destructions, to the point that they consider him some kind of expert on blade steel and knife construction. So The Great Hockey Mask continues to break knives. The whole dynamic puzzles me.
Click to expand...

Those same people have claimed that Noss's tests are something that they are not, those repeated claims have led to alot of the confusion.

Noss doesn't break knives to become infamous, he breaks knives for his own pleasure and enjoyment.
 
Guyon said:
You know what? I think Ethan put it best. I'm going to bow to his wisdom and bow out of this one. :D
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I agree, when I read that post a grin stretched across my face.

I usually don't get into these.
Arguing this any further won't be benificial, the world keeps on turning.
 
Thanks for working this thing out.....I have been trying to figure out how to STAMP out this little brush fire before you all went over the CLIFF with it.... What I really would like to do is give Noss a free trip to visit Larry Harley or Steve Schwarzer's for a week(I doubt he would survive the week at Schwarzers, so maybe that is a bad idea) and then a visit to Marty Simon's or Ron Hood's schools......What I see in Noss's videos is testing based on a very narrow knowledge base.....If somehow he could or would expand that base he might be able to do all of knifedom a favor with his tests....Broos is very right about REAL testing procedures, I had to do a bunch of truly comparative, quantifiable and destructive tests when in the mountain climbing business and I had real incentive to do it right because I climbed on the stuff I tested and made...I felt it was only fair......

When I do tests of knives (others as well as my own) I have a fairly good idea in advance how much stress a given steel in a given thickness at a given Rockwell is likely to take.....And unless I am feeling bloody minded or in need of a little therapy I do not push the knife over the edge.....I am more interested in the ergs ie., balance, feel, chopping ease,"slicability", edge retention vs. sharpening ease, etc, etc, etc.....These are for the most part not easily quantifiable in numbers, but, are really quite subjective and so are impressions NOT "test results"...Anyway....Noss if you are cruising this thread please private message me and I will see if I can assist you in broadening your horizons for all of our sakes...If you really have Knifedom's good at heart let us help...If you should come to visit I will NOT make you take the mask off and I really do not give a tinkers damn who you really are.....

I will be at SHOT all next week so please either PM before sunday afternoon or give me until a week from tuesday to get back to you.....

All Best....

ethan
 
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