Hype vs. Honesty

[DngrRuss1]

cons

I don’t think a company can be considered to have much honesty when they put up some large cash to fund a PI to dig up dirt on competitors.

LT and CS did not pay one dime to any PI to dig up info on another company.

A PI did approach LT with info on another manufacturer. LT, from what my source says, told the PI he would talk to him if he had something concrete to show him- but did not pay him any money, nor did he offer to employ this PI to dig up any info.

Apparently the PI, or someone related to this issue, posted something on another forum, and, like a game of "telephone", suddenly LT is seeking out a PI and paying him to garner information aganst competitors.

Didn't happen.

 

[harm]

Why yes, I am a Cold Steel hater. It's not surprising to hear them talked down upon because they do make themselves out to be more than they are. Saying things like "The trailmaster will outperform every production knife and 90% of all custom knives."
I dislike it when they take other peoples designs. I hate it when United cutlery and Gerber do it, too. I hate it when they use low grade materials for higher costing knives. I hated it when CRKT dumbed down their steels, too. I hate it when Cold Steel bitches and moans about how the industry doesn't treat them fairly and doesn't give them props for being so innovative earlier on. Um, I don't know who else I can compare this to.
I am a Cold Steel hater. I still buy Cold Steel, once in a while. But I still trust other companies far more.

trying to remain neutral but i have this suggestion for detractors and supporters.why does'nt someone take the trailmaster[for starters,do all if possible] and do comparitive tests against a selection of knives representing the custom and production industry.this testing must be done by someone who is neither hater nor supporter.that way this ******* matter can be put to rest and everyone can quit *******

edited for inappropriate language

 

[harm]

cons

I don’t think a company can be considered to have much honesty when they put up some large cash to fund a PI to dig up dirt on competitors.

i feel this way too.i like some of the cs products but this is what makes LT a pos in my opinion

 

[Cliff Stamp]

trying to remain neutral but i have this suggestion for detractors and supporters.why does'nt someone take the trailmaster[for starters,do all if possible] and do comparitive tests against a selection of knives representing the custom and production industry.

It has been done, Mike Turber compared a Trailmaster to a Basic #9 using both knives to do a variety of work and found the Basic chopped better, got more penetration and felt better in hand, cut better on cardboard, and hemp for longer and was more durable. Is it a nice blade - sure. Is it worth the money - I would not feel ripped off by the price. But does it live up to the claims - not even close.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

But does it live up to the claims - not even close.

I think it comes a bit closer than you want to admit Cliff. It may be that some of the marketing is questionable but that particular knife is one of their good ones and seems to please a great many discerning individuals.

As for LT being a POS. I wholeheartedly agree. He probably gets more hate mail than Christmas cards for sure. I wonder sometimes about his character and you have to ask yourself why he was never invited back to Gunsite or Blackwater after giving one seminar there like others in the industry who have been invited back. (Emerson for one)

LT is the reason many stay clear of the company and/or their products but to be honest I find it laughable at times to judge a product like a knife just because you don't like the company marketing it or the owner. Seki Japan, Camillus and I understand some of the same plants that make knives for CRKT make the Cold Steel knives from Taiwan. Point being: that it supports more than just Cold Steel and/or LT to buy from them.


Lastly: Henry Ford supposedly supported Hitler but yet many still buy his products and drive them daily. I don't much care for Michael Jackson but I do on occassion hear a song he wrote that I like and I listen to. I think some of the biggest critics of CS lately have been Strider fans which I find a bit ironic since I've never yet seen LT on a public forum spouting off at another forum member to lick his genitals. The point is if you look for it you can find fault in anyone, and that maybe we should try to find something positive as well. On that note lets not forget that Lynn Thompson/Cold Steel donates as many if not more knives to our troops in Iraq than anyone. The way I see it if you can find some redeaming quality in someone there is room for allowances when a bad side of them comes into view. That is how I see it anyway.

STR

 

[warden41272]

I just don't like CS's designs anymore. I don't like the materials they use to make their knives. Cold Steel used to be one of the premier knife companies, IMO, when there weren't that many companies making high-end knives. Now...their product is stale, and I haven't seen a design from CS in a decade that I consider practical or even useful. IMO, CS has become the "Blackie Collins"-type of company, that puts their name on substandard schlock (to borrow a term from Joe Talmadge) and rests on their past accomplishments.

Cold Steel was the first company I remember to advertise heavily, test their knives against others and display the results, and in general showed people they could buy something better than the detritus being churned out by Buck and Case. IMO, they *created* the widespread tactical knife market. That being said, they haven't done anything since. I'm not a CS "hater", I just don't think they have kept up with the times, and make a crap product now.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think it comes a bit closer than you want to admit Cliff.

Here is how it is promoted :

"[FONT=arial, helvetica]In terms of sharpness, edge holding, strength and sheer cutting power, it will outperform any factory made knife we know of and 99% of all hand forged knives as well. "[/FONT]

No, I don't think it comes close to that, note the "any factory knife" and "99%" vs hand forged.

Which hand forged bowies have you used for which that is true, and which factory knives of similar price.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

The blades were also very strong through the full body and could take heavy side pulls while lodged halfway in an old stump. This was a similar amount of force which broken several blades from Ontario, and bent the TUSK, and a couple of khukuris from Gurkha house. The edge was also pounded directly into woods and subjected to direct heavy side loads. Both blades handled this with no problems. This was much more force that what caused both TUSKs to suffer gross failure and the Cold Steel blades handled it with no problems. More details can be seen on the performance of these two knives on the following page :

Your own test seems to indicate they can hold their own. My own experiences with the Recon Scout I had seem to agree with yours that the handle is the weakest point; as I do prefer the Camp Tramp but even still for the money you cannot deny that either the Recon Scout or the TrailMaster is a good quality worker. When you factor in that you can buy a factory second from CS and save even more $ for a good user knife it makes them that much more appealing really. My RS was a second and you would never know it to use it. You can buy a factory second Trailmaster for just over $100.

How they are promoted is mostly Cold Steel's opinion and as I said before they are entitled to that and selling them is their job. I like them and when compared to other knives in the same price point (apples to apples) they are one of the best ones going at least in the top three I'd say. The Key words in the above add or promotion are "we know off". Also, that was written and added to the promo before the advent of the Camp Tramp or the other new competitor knives that could challenge the Trail Master.

But here are two words for you Cliff. "Prove it". I mean if you are so convinced the add is that misleading make some calls and gather up some of the ones you find or think of to challenge those claims for the Carbon V TrailMaster Bowie and do a war of the Bowies review and show us the results.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How they are promoted is mostly Cold Steel's opinion ...

It isn't opinion that a knife is sharper or stronger or cuts better, these are all easily measured. You are also the one who argued against my statement that they don't come close to the claims made. It is the claims which were being contended.

Also, that was written and added to the promo before the advent of the Camp Tramp or the other new competitor knives that could challenge the Trail Master.

It is still there today. The forged bowies have been around a *long* time as well.

I mean if you are so convinced the add is that misleading make some calls and gather up some of the ones you find or think of to challenge those claims for the Carbon V TrailMaster Bowie and do a war of the Bowies review and show us the results.

I have already used a Trailmaster and a number of other large bowies, including several customs, Mike Turber compared a Trailmaster directly to a Basic #9. Plus the idea of trying to disprove a claim a maker won't support is kind of farcial anyway.

Seller : I have this great product, see all the wonderful claims I make about its superiority.

Buyer : Are those true?

Seller : Of course, see the pictures I have.

Buyer : So you are gauranteeing those are the expected results.

Seller : Well no.

Buyer : And if I try them and it doesn't happen?

Seller : If you try any of them then it voids the warrenty, I can't be responsible for what happens.

Buyer : But you are promoting it with that work?

Seller : Yeah you should but one and see for yourself.

Buyer : But if I do, and I don't get the same results?

Seller : Like I said I don't guarantee that you will.

Buyer : This doesn't make any sense, why would I buy one. Look that guy over there is selling the same thing and while he doesn't make extreme claims he guarantees the performance. Look people are actually using it right now and see the results are the same.

Seller : Hey look over there !

(runs away quickly)

-Cliff

 

[benchmademan]

The 3rd point- dont throw down that gauntlet and not be specific. If I were to say something like that about the crew at Benchmade, you would demand specifics and evidence- not opinion- and you would be right to do so.

Your 4th point, however, falls into opinion. "Character" is a matter of perspective and opinion. Certainly a couple example of which would be politics, or religon. People fo one side of the aisle, or of one faith are more inclined to think of those outside of of their own perspective as not having good character. To my knowledge, LT, although abrasive, tries to be honest. One might think that honesty and a willingness to stand up for one's beliefs, as well as the courage to withstand the slings and arrows of the opposition would be admirable qualities of character.

i know this is an old post but i haven't been around i awhile. i chose not to expound upon my earlier post with details out of respect for the people involved. i am not involved in that situation so it's not my business. however, the public details (search this forum or other forums on the net for all the details) were more than enough for me to never deal with CS or LT and more than enough for me to see what kind of a person he is and what kind of company he runs. not sharing evidence and not having evidence are two different things. if you want to know, you can dig a little and find out.

besides, they are my reasons. you have your own.

merry christmas.

 

[STR]

Plus the idea of trying to disprove a claim a maker won't support is kind of farcial anyway

Cliff if you feel that way why did you even review the Recon Scout and the Trail Master Bowie in the first place? You obviously got those from Cold Steel for the review as you stated in your review. They obviously held up to the tests you did which were some of the same tests CS did proving the claims. If the idea was a farce why did you do the review? You know, it was after reading that review of yours that I bought the RS second. Just throw out the review and take it off your web site if you think it is so bogus. It looks to me like you say one thing and do another when you have it there to review and check out and write what you do here about them.

STR

 

[STR]

Lets look at the claims for what they are.

"Why Buy a Carbon V TrailMaster ? Because it is without a doubt, the most knife for the money ever built. In terms of sharpness, edge holding, strength, and sheer cutting power, it will outperform any factory made knife we know of and 99% of all hand forged knives as well. "

Without a doubt the most knife "for the money". $150 is how much it sells for. So if a TMB even begins to approach a custom hand forged blade say twice or three times the price is the above statement hype or truth? If it keeps up but doesn't surpass a knife more expensive is it outperforming for the money spent or is it still considered hype? You see you can easily look at this any number of ways depending on your take on things. The terms, "For the money", and "outperform" are two key statements that can mean different things to different people. It is a well thought out statement and sure it is pushing it by some interpretations but thats what they do in marketing, so what!

Edge holding, strength and sharpness can be measured this is true Cliff. But who measured any of it to challenge CSs' claims? You? I don't see the challenges being made and if you feel it is a farce to do so why even bother typing about it at all unless you are going to go to the trouble of challenging the claims made with facts instead of words of complaint?

The tests you conduct void the warranty most all the time. Spine whacks, prying and chipping with the knife and the point are all issues that are not covered in most all major companies warranties. I guess you won't be happy until Cold Steel says 'Ok, you can put it in a vice and try to break it if you want and if it breaks we'll cover it under warranty'. That is all this seems to be about to me. You think they should allow the user to do anything done in the video and they should have to cover it.

 

[Wunderbar]

Hype: Cold Steel, SOG, Emerson. I'd still buy some of their knives if I like them.

Honesty: Benchmade, Spyderco. These two companies will always be dear and near to my heart.

I consider the Hype as just marketing. This is why I'd still buy some of the "hype" brand knives.

Now, Gerber is just plain full of *&^%! What was once a great American Brand now sucks donkeys. You don't know what you're getting when you buy a Gerber and I don't think that they even know what they're selling.:thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn:

 

[db]

I beleive The warranty covers defects in materials and/or workmanship. not performance or what the knife can or cann't do.

 

[STR]

DB that is correct and the case with most of the knife manufacturers. The only difference between CS and the others is that the owner is a jerk with his head up his a$$ but that doesn't take away the fact that a great many of their products are very well made and good deals for the money. I challenge anyone to get an Ultimate Hunter from CS and tell me with a straight face that it is crap. If thats crap then so are the rest of the knives being produced by competitors and many times for three times the price.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The only difference between CS and the others is that the owner is a ...

Take a look at how Spyderco promotes thier knives :

"A cornerstone in Spyderco's Save and Serve line up, the Military Model came about after someone asked Spyderco\'s owner Sal Glesser, "If your son were going into the military what folding knife would you send him with?" For certain, it had to meet the requirements of a high-performance, light-weight folder designed for hard use."

There is a big difference between that and how Cold Steel promotes their products. As noted lots of people will actually support the performance claims they make.

I challenge anyone to get an Ultimate Hunter from CS and tell me with a straight face that it is crap.

No one is arguing that.

So if a TMB even begins to approach a custom hand forged blade say twice or three times the price is the above statement hype or truth?

That arguement contradicts itself immediately. All you have to do is take something much cheaper and do the same performance/cost ratio comparison and the Trailmaster will get mauled.

But who measured any of it ...

Cold Steel I would assume since they said it initially, lots of other measurements of various types can be found for lots of other knives, as I noted Turber did them directly. Lots of ABS guys do tests for sharpness and cutting ability, video's and pictures are available on the web. Some of them are much more impressive than what Cold Steel does.

I guess you won't be happy until Cold Steel says 'Ok, you can put it in a vice and try to break it if you want and if it breaks we'll cover it under warranty'.

No, it if breaks before it was described it should be covered, assuming the break was used to promote the knife.

You think they should allow the user to do anything done in the video and they should have to cover it.

Yes if the results are significantly different. If you get the same thing then it isn't covered of course, you got the expected result. Same thing with any use in general.

Cliff if you feel that way why did you even review the Recon Scout and the Trail Master Bowie in the first place?

There are lots of knives I would work with if someone donated which I would never actually buy, there is a rather large difference between the two. If I buy a knife and it fails to perform the way it was promoted and the maker supports the claims I just get a refund/replacement, if they don't support it and it was donated well all I am out is the time, and generally I learn enough from the reviews to make it worth my time.

However I am not going to spend money to investigate performance that a maker won't support. I'll spend my money on knives with high performance claims that the makers actually support for the obvious reasons noted. It is also much more likely that you actually see the claimed performance if a maker is willing to publically support it for obvious reasons.

If the idea was a farce why did you do the review?

As noted there is a big difference between buying something and having it donated. It is however highly insensible to go out and buy a product to see if it lives up to the performance claims when the manufacturer won't actually support said claims and in fact directly states that if you attempt to do so it voids the warrenty on the product.

Plus that review was one of the first ones, if I was doing it now it would be different, one of the first things I would do would be to get the newest DVD and attempt to duplicate the work done. I was not even fully aware of the exent of the hype back then, nor had used the knives I have since then which allow the above statements to be made.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Cliff wrote…
“As noted there is a big difference between buying something and having it donated. It is however highly insensible to go out and buy a product to see if
it lives up to the performance claims when the manufacturer won't actually support said claims and in fact directly states that if you attempt to do so
it voids the warrenty on the product.”
Just because something is not covered under warranty doesn’t mean It can’t perform it. In fact I don’t think the warranty should even be a factor in determining the performance of a knife. Many knives can perform much more than they are warrantied for, so limiting your selections to knives with great warranties doesn’t really teach much. Why test any of them at all then just look at the warranty, kind of silly right? In fact it seems to make more sense to me to test the knives with warranties that are very limited rather than the ones with the replace it no matter what warranty.

 

[SpyderJon]

Okay, the guy who started this thread made claims and I just wasted my time reading 5 pages looking for the info I was promised. Where is it??? Put up or shut up.

I'm personally tired of the CS threads. Either you'll like them or you won't. And as far as personalities being part of the decision process being a silly concept, it IS in fact part of the decision for some. I buy Emerson products (far from hype my friends), because I like Ernie. I don't buy CS products because 1) none of their products interest me, and 2) the owner is a real jerk :jerkit: off. I don't like his personality, and I don't like the way his company operates- based on HIS leadership. That is my opinion, and thank God I don't have to apologize for it. Again, I don't hate Cold Steel, I despise the owner.

Also, like I said, if you've got info put it up, if not SHUT UP AND QUIT WASTING BANDWIDTH!!!

-Anthony

 

[STR]

Originally posted by STR
I challenge anyone to get an Ultimate Hunter from CS and tell me with a straight face that it is crap.


Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
No one is arguing that.

Apparently you have not read post number 86 Cliff which is what I am responding to there in that quote.

Originally posted by warden41272
I'm not a CS "hater", I just don't think they have kept up with the times, and make a crap product now.

The Ultimate Hunter model is a later model folder and has not been out that long compared to others in their line up and I'm here to tell you it kicks a$$! Like LT or not this knife will hold it's own with anything else I've bought in recent years and that includes some pretty nice high dollar knives many times the price of this $50 folder from Newgraham.com

As far as fixed blades go: their Master Hunter will certainly hold it's own with just about anything else on the market for hunting and what it was designed to do. In many ways it is enough knife and designed well enough for others to take notes on and learn from. (IMO)

Originally Posted by STR
So if a TMB even begins to approach a custom hand forged blade say twice or three times the price is the above statement hype or truth?


Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
That arguement contradicts itself immediately. All you have to do is take something much cheaper and do the same performance/cost ratio comparison and the Trailmaster will get mauled.

Its not a statement. Its a question. Something much cheaper? Now I'm curious. What that is much cheaper is on the market that can outperform this $150 Trail Master Bowie?

STR

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I have my own feelings about CS and as much as I believe that they have some good knives, I can not seperate the knives from the man that runs the company. I have absolutely no respect for him and therefore will not support his company. To those that do not share my view, good on ya. We all should make up our own minds based on what is important to us individually.