Hype vs. Honesty

[Walking Man]

I would like to see a Cold Steel forum here as well. I even brought that up with them on the phone when I placed my order the other day.

1) what did CS say?
2) I don't really care where it is. I think some companies choose to have a forum on their homepage because it's cheaper? maybe?
Either way, IF a CS forum does come it, it must have sufficient representation (as in a non-disappearing moderator), otherwise, it's useless.

 

[STR]

The guy that took my order said the issue has come up many times but nothing ever seems to move the wheels forward with it. He did say that he and many others that work there would be more than happy to help but they are just pions in the grand scheme of things.

Regardless of what people think about Cold Steel their products and the company are popular with the masses. Their forum would probably rock and roll compared to some here.

 

[STR]

By the way. Cold Steel did have a forum for a while but for some reason it was closed. This came up in our conversation before in another thread.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Your leap in logic and asserts that CS should either not do any testing for public consumption, or give their customers the endorsement to act like a bunch of cutting-bending-breaking-maniacs, like the CS crew during a test or a video shoot.

What I am saying is that if you are willing to promote an actual functional selling point of your product so that people will buy said product because of the illustrated behavior then it should be guaranteed that they get said behavior. To do otherwise, promote a product and then void any attempt to verify said claims is the exact defination of hype.

Hiding behind some legal concerns is not an excuse because as noted use of a knife in general is far more dangerous especially considering some of the product Cold Steel sells such as boar spears. You really think doing a rope cutting test is more dangerous than hunting a boar with a spear or using a knife in a fight with the constant martial promotion that Cold Steel uses. Obviously not that is a prime example of the extreme level of hype.

And as noted, I could easily ask Cold Steel if I could do any number of things with their products which are inherently extremely dangerous such as felling trees and I would be told to go ahead the knives are of course designed to do just that. By your same logic this also makes them just as legally responsible, more so in fact because it was a direct communication.

It also isn't the case that everyone acts like Cold Steel and makes huge claims and then is so exclusive in the warrenty. However if your arguement was valid it would have to apply to everyone, and everyone would be so constrained, they are not, and thus it is invalidated trivially.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Actually when you stop to think about it the whole argument is invalidated. The Cold Steel warranty for folders is what> one year? Their knives are beaters and users primarily affordable to everyone. I technically voided the warranty on my last Vaquero when I installed a pocket clip on it since it didn't come with one. (modified knife now) I don't know about you guys but a year goes by pretty darn fast anymore. By the time you break the thing the warranty is not applicable anyways.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Assuming you have any sense, before you rely on a knife for any kind of signifcant use you would try it out first. It would only take about half an hour to do a serious one shot evaluation of a knife, see the Seal Trials by Hilton Yam for example which covered :

-various cutting (lots of cordage)
-wood chopping
-point flexing
-blade loading
-handle durability

as well as general issues of ergonomics/security and various other elements. Attempting to run a CS knife through the same trials to see how it compares to the others voids the warrenty. In regards to a year, that is an awful long time for a serious use EDC knife, if it has not developed a problem in that time then it is very rare to have one later. Of course if use is sporadic then results may differ but again this is why an evaluation period is usually a good idea.

-Cliff

 

[Walking Man]

IIRC, CS closed the forum b/c they couldn't or wouldn't continue to support it.... possible due to financial reasons???? Maybe. I did read about it also.

 

[STR]

if it has not developed a problem in that time then it is very rare to have one later

That is most likely why it is for one year only with CS folders.

As for having sense. I like to think I do but I draw the line between common sense use and ridiculous gross abuse in a different place than you or some of the other folks here I guess.

As to your test and warranty coverage. I see no reason to single out CS for a voided warranty if the knife broke during some of the test procedures you mentioned there for a Navy Seal knife. Chances are they are not the only company that would reject a warranty coverage for a broken blade if you told them you were doing a Seal blade loading or point flexing test when it snapped off a 1/4" or 1/2" of the tip. I do know of cases where CS has covered chopping breaks, handle breaks and other things so they are not totally worthless and in my opinion have a pretty decent cust. service dept. I lost a thumb stud once off my Voyager and they mailed me out one in a few days N/C. I fail to see how anyone can argue with that kind of support.

A more appropriate test would be one similar to the A.G.Russell liner lock test where you check the knife for fit and finish, lock stregth by pressure on the spine, lateral pressure for movement, white knuckling and security as well as how the lock holds during that type pressure and then some common tasks you 'normally' use your EDC knife for. If it passes all those tests there is little need to test the flex of the point by chipping out a chunk of wood since most folks probably don't do much of that anyway. We have seen what happened to an otherwise good knive by doing that before haven't we?

Something like these simple tests which took me a bit to find again, makes sense and tells the user enough to know he can trust the knife in normal use. (or if he can't accept it) It does so without abusing the knife too which makes more sense than walking that grey area or crossing into voiding the warranty just because you think a 'Seal' test is appropriate and that any knife should handle it. http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/articles/liner_lock_tests.html

I would add that these tests can be done right after the purchase and if any of these areas give the buyer a reason to suspect the reliability or security of the lock, or the blade or any other part of the whole package the knife can be returned to the retailer with no tell tale signs that someone beat it up by doing an 'abusive' test on it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I see no reason to single out CS ...

No one does in that respect.

Chances are they are not the only company that would reject a warranty coverage for a broken blade if you told them you were doing a Seal blade loading or point flexing test when it snapped off a 1/4" or 1/2" of the tip.

They they might want to obviously reconsider promoting the knife for such use.

-Cliff

 

[SAK]

I tell you that buy five Ready Edge for $40 is a great deal. Those things are great users and super stocking stuffers.

STR, do you have to have the flyer that came in the mail to get this price?

Thanks,

--SAK

 

[STR]

Sure do. Special Projects 2005 Christmas Sale.

I have a couple of friends that said they didn't get that flyer also. It is a good deal. These are great office party gifts unless you work in an 'anti knife' office of some kind. At $8 each you can't much argue with that either.

Some of the other deals; buy two black Scimitars for $100 (thats 47% off!) Or by two X2 Voyagers for $100 (45% off)
Pendleton Hunter for $39.99 (33% off )
Fillet knives any size $14.99
Tanto Pt. Voyagers 2 for $60 for the Large, 2 for $40 if the Med.
Rubber training knives 4 for $20

Steve

 

[STR]

They they might want to obviously reconsider promoting the knife for such use.

I don't see the demonstrations they do in those tests or DVDs as promoting the knife for that type of use when they make it clear that these tests are for demonstrations only and constitute gross abuse of the knife if they are duplicated. I don't see the problem 'assuming you have any sense'. Most people don't do that with their knives anyway.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't see the demonstrations they do in those tests or DVDs as promoting the knife for that type of use ...

Direct from Cold Steel :

"The Carbon V®Trail Master¨ is, without a doubt, the most knife for the money ever built. In terms of sharpness, edge holding, strength and sheer cutting power, it will outperform any factory made knife we know of and 99% of all hand forged knives as well."

Followed by :

"Unlike our competitors, we can prove that the claims we have made for the Trail Master® are true. You can see the evidence for yourself in our video entitled MORE PROOF."

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Come on Cliff. I think you are confusing the vice tests and other seriously dangerous tests of the video with actual use situations. Read what I typed above that is also straight from Cold Steel as to the warranty.

They simply don't expect the general public to be doing the dangerous tests like those in their video. The video tests prove the sharpeness, strength, and edge holding to anyone watching. Anyone can duplicate the rope cutting tests. All that will happen is the edge will dull and the knife will need resharpened. Thats going to happen anyway really. No need in that case for any debate or issue regarding a warranty because nothing is wrong. It is normal. To suggest that just because they bend it in a vice to show the strength and ability of their steel that we should be able to do that too and make them cover it should we screw it up or should it break is kind of, well, absurd. The actual use that is within the scope of the work the knife is made to handle is not the same thing as some of the things done in those videos that show the knife being abused to prove its worth and you of all people, being a tester, should know the difference IMO. They just say in those videos, looky here, this is what the knife has taken and we have beaten it to hell, but they know full well that what they've done is grossly abuse the knife for testing; much the same as what you do for other people and I shouldn't need to point out that the general public John Doe user is not going to come close to the same type of things in the serious abuse situations of a test like that.

With an obvious bias like you have for this particular company it will be hard to read your reviews from now on of anything of Cold Steel's without the thought or question in my mind as to whether or not the review is tainted or objective at all. It can't be very objective or neutral for sure when you feel from the word go that the company is crooked.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Come on Cliff. I think you are confusing the vice tests and other seriously dangerous tests of the video ...

Read the above, Cold Steel doesn't note specific tests, they use the entire video in the performance arguement and thus the entire video should be open for the consumer to duplicate and covered under warrenty because it is being used to support a performance claim to entice people to buy the product.

To suggest that just because they bend it in a vice to show the strength and ability of their steel that we should be able to do that too and make them cover it should we screw it up or should it break is kind of, well, absurd.

Of course, but then again no one is actually suggesting that. What is being argued is that if you do duplicate their work and get different results then it should be covered, duplicate being the critical part. And again, as for vicing and the other activites being extremely dangerous consider the other actual promoted uses such as felling, knife fighting and boar hunting.

It can't be very objective or neutral for sure when you feel from the word go that the company is crooked.

I evaluate the knife, not the person making it. I recently started a review on a liner lock from Swamp Rat knives, I first asked Joe to evalaute the lock, I then sent it in for a passaround and specifically envited you to look at it. Yes that certainly sounds like someone who wants to conceal a personal bias.

As for my opinion of Cold Steel, I don't rate them as badly as some do, I feel the demonstrations without user confirmation are purely hype, and that on many issues they are filled with double speak such as the 420 stainless issue, and many of their claims are just farcial like the Trailmaster being better than 99% of custom bowies.

I don't hold any of this against Thompson personally he is just doing what he needs to do to make money. Just like the whole "Carbon V" deal, as a user it isn't what I would want to see, but independently I can appreciate that at the same time it gives Cold Steel a promotional standpoint while allowing versatility in material choices.

They also do make many nice knives, the FRN folders are a nice alternative to Spyderco for a more rugged design and the serration pattern has its moments, they have several nice working fixed blades if you can tolerate the Kraton grips (Master Hunter being a standout), and the tomahawks are decent for the price.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

People hunt with or without a CS spear. But I see your point. I think the warranty is different on their fixed blades and boar hunting spears as well as other of those type implements. I don't see how any of us can really say what will an will not be covered though. I have not had anything sent back to them to test them as to whether they would honor the warranty. Apparently you haven't either.

On some issues I'm right there with you btw and I agree. (the 420 steel thing) I remember when LT talked down about other companies using that steel. He did hang himself out there for that one.

I don't think there are any real issues regarding the durability of their products though. They have had a few lemons but over all they market the product well, it sells well and people actually use them and like them because they hold up fine. What more can anyone ask? I still don't see any real problems with this companies products other than the hype and vocal sufferings coming forth from the owner now and then. But you said yourself that we can't blame LT for that. He is making money and he is good at it. Most of the complaints about CS are solely about LT and not the products. The products, just as the adds say, speak for themselves IMO.

BTW, I did get in on that Swamp Rat pass around. I do want to see it and I guess it is in for repair and things have been delayed. The question of bias is probably off, I'll give you that but it came to mind if you feel that strongly about this particular company, the owner or the product. I give you credit for being able to remain objective and not hold on to the past as well as anyone I know. But I had to state that because it makes me wonder, that is all. I am not trying to suggest that you are hiding anything. I figured that would garner a response and that is what I wanted to hear.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't see how any of us can really say what will an will not be covered though.

You don't need to guess, they say it directly.

I don't think there are any real issues regarding the durability of their products though.

The only real issue which stands out to me on the fixed blades is the durability of the Kraton grips on the larger knives, specifically it loses its bonding, but this takes a lot of heavy use, it is one of the few cases where you will probably get bit by the one year restriction and there is no real user fix aside from actually getting the handle redone which will cost you maybe $25-50 + shipping and thus is usually not sensible unless you are really attached to the knife or know a local maker (or do it yourself).

The problem isn't the performance but the claims, be frank, you make knives, now assume you came out in public and said "My knives are better than any production I have seen and 99% of custom folders on the market and I can prove it with evaluations on video." You think that kind of claim would be reacted to well - especially when you then say "However any attempt to duplicate my tests voids the warrenty on the knife."

People are as critical of Cold Steel simply because they make such outlandish claims, and then refuse to honor them, that isn't an exaggeration, they actually do go just that far, and when you handle bowies like Kirk's and a Trailmaster you just shake your head and wonder which of the 99% of custom bowies had Thompson actually used, not to mention pieces like the Battle Rat, TOP's Anaconada, etc. .

... it came to mind if you feel that strongly about this particular company, the owner or the product.

It is an obvious question, I wonder it all the time when I read what people write. It is hard to come to a conclusion unless you actually know the person, but if you have read it for a long time then it is fairly obvious just look at what they write and see if they accept certain behavior from one maker but critize another for the same, does one knife get praised for specific behavior but another critized, etc. . .

I think what I have done and continue to do speaks for my ability to be objective, if you feel that I am ignoring weak points of a knife or ignoring strengths then just point it out. If it is possible and the knife is still around I'll try to address that perspective. I have decided to do formal passarounds on most knives from this point on which will round out the reviews to a greater extent than the past.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Good points. I like the passaround ideas Cliff. And I'm reassured that you won't let your bias interfere with future reviews of their products. Do a review on that Ultimate Hunter folder. I just ordered one because I was so impressed with the Master Hunter. I've paid four times as much and not got as good a knife as that one.

Also, the Cold Steel Warranty on fixed blades is 5 years. 1 year on folders only.

FWIW. I have had a problem with the grips on my Recon Scout but it was in fact after years of hard use and even after duty for 14 months in Iraq with my son when he took it with him. Its his now. I like the Camp Tramp better after having both.

I guess in the end I'm not trying to dispute the obvious boldness of LT. He is bold. We all know that. I think you and a handful of others are the only ones that actually take his DVDs and a lot of those claims serious enough to have a problem with them. Most of us just enjoy it for the novelty.

The only significant difference I see between Cold Steel/LT and other manufacturers or makers is that he is bold enough to make his claims loudly and publically. Go to any gun show and other makers booths and company reps booths and they do much the same thing only privately and quietly between a few people or one on one. Some even do similar demonstrations proving the worth of their knives or the edge holding and what not. Big deal. Its all to sell them. Marketing. Thats all I see it as. I don't see a lot of the guys that you mentioned taking LT up on his challenge. When you compare them apples to apples it is a tough call on most of the line up of his good stuff even if their warranty does suck.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Also, the Cold Steel Warranty on fixed blades is 5 years. 1 year on folders only.

Thanks for the correction, I would not be concerned about any longer than that on that level of production blade, just buy a new one after that long if something does go wrong.

The only significant difference I see between Cold Steel/LT and other manufacturers or makers is that he is bold enough to make his claims loudly and publically.

Yes, I don't pay any attention to that though, if a maker won't state something in public I don't pay any attention to it. I would lose all respect for a maker who was so two faced.

I don't see a lot of the guys that you mentioned taking LT up on his challenge.

A pretty interesting point indeed.

-Cliff

 

[DngrRuss1]

I would like to know what happened to all that meat (ribs, roasts, etc.) that got whacked in that CS dvd used to market their various knife models. I hope that all that testing was photographed the day before the Cold Steel company picnic, hee hee!

All the meat that landed on the tarp stretched out below the gallows was donated to a local mission (with the health department's approval).