I broke my cold steel Spartan!!!!!

Ok I am going to try to say this quickly. From the first time I saw the Tri Ad lock and the strength claims by CS, I have been highly suspect. To explain, I don't doubt that the knives are truly as strong as shown but that they test the strength of the blade in only two directions; up and down. Because of all of the steel removed from the blade for the lock design, my concern is how strong it is from side to side. If you have a Tri Ad, take a look at the huge chunk of steel they remove from the blade and see if you agree with my concerns.
 
There's still a large amount of steel around the pivot hole, so I don't think it's a design weekness.

I'd be interested to see if Cold Steel would be willing to replace this knife. I feel like they should regardless of receipt or time frame.
 
stabman said:
Not true.
If anything, it just adds more chance for screwing things up.
Forged or stock removal, the critical thing is the heat treating process (and not just the hardening part of it).

As has been said, forging doesn't make the steel you start with any better. The best you can really hope for is to not make it worse.;)
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I agree that ht is important . With regards to my earlier statement I think I read it in the Himalayan imports forum somewhere, perhaps in the archive, where some dude scientifically determined that the khuk he scanned had much less flaws than stock removal blades he scanned. :)
 
Cotherion said:
I agree that ht is important . With regards to my earlier statement I think I read it in the Himalayan imports forum somewhere, perhaps in the archive, where some dude scientifically determined that the khuk he scanned had much less flaws than stock removal blades he scanned. :)
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He may have said it, and with the particular sampling he had it may have even been true, but the simple fact of the matter is that the best hammer-man in the world can't compete with GIGANTIC rollers which are providing enormous force evenly across an entire batch of steel. Kevin Cashen--uber Master Smith and metallurgy freak to beat all--is the first to admit that forging has a whole lot more to do with tradition and craftsmanship than it does pure performance. Actually, I believe the "the best you can hope for is to not make it worse" line is his. By the way, I love forged knives. :)
 
Shecky, there is a video of Demko standing on either a Lawman or new gen AK. It's supported between 2 pieces of wood and he's standing on a linerless knife. I'm sure the lateral strength is quite good.
 
t1mpani said:
Kind of tough to see but it looks like there is corrosion in the middle of the break. An inclusion in the steel, perhaps?
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There's Deffinitly something in the break- it's black though.... Never seen anything like it but I've never had a bad blade before
 
crom said:
Shecky, there is a video of Demko standing on either a Lawman or new gen AK. It's supported between 2 pieces of wood and he's standing on a linerless knife. I'm sure the lateral strength is quite good.
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Ive never seen thaty before. Got a link to that vid?


ETA: Nevermind, i found it. It was a Lawman. Pretty awesome. If it wasnt in AUS-8 id have bought one this instant.
 
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That's dismissing a great knife. The AUS8a CS uses is very good for its price point. I find it's tough and stays sharp a reasonable amount of time. I am in the habit of maintaining my users no matter the blade steel so my CS folder gets touched up every week or so along with my other edc, a Blur in s60v. I was cutting zip ties and cat5e with the CS this past week and was really surprised to see no edge rolling/blunting at the tip. These were medium thickness ties used in cable management and it (recon1) went through them with no effort. The Blur by comparison blunted while cutting phone cable, I was kind of upset because it wasn't easy to fix that section. These knives get a bad rap over the steel but I think it's unwarranted.
 
t1mpani said:
He may have said it, and with the particular sampling he had it may have even been true, but the simple fact of the matter is that the best hammer-man in the world can't compete with GIGANTIC rollers which are providing enormous force evenly across an entire batch of steel. Kevin Cashen--uber Master Smith and metallurgy freak to beat all--is the first to admit that forging has a whole lot more to do with tradition and craftsmanship than it does pure performance. Actually, I believe the "the best you can hope for is to not make it worse" line is his. By the way, I love forged knives. :)
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I can't say for certain how even is the force of the giant rollers or how much it is. II do know that impacts from hammer, though small hammer, can result in large force per area.

Like I use a 1 kilo hammer to hammer a nail. It'll take some blows to get that nail in. Now compare it to a situation where I do not hammer but push the nail in. How much weight do one need to push nail in? Loads, way more than one kilo.

What I'm saying is forging done using puny hammers by decent forgers can result in better compaction compared to giant rollers exerting static load. Decent forgers 'feel' the steel to result in good results.

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, just food for thought. I'm no expert but I do want to test/check my beliefs. :)
 
t1mpani said:
There, you're talking about a serious difference in the amount of lever arm/torque. Give me a two foot wrench and I'll break pretty much any bolt in the world that isn't used to hold bridges together. Here, his hand is only about two inches away from the point of failure. That would have to be one serious flaw in the steel. I could recreate the blade out of brass and watch people try and shear it off with hand pressure all day long.
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As it turns out, these are used to hold bridges together, when the regular (A325 grade) bolts aren't enough. The shank of the bolt is 1", the head is 1 5/8" or 1 11/16". The standard wet torque is well above the 600 ft-lb range of my 42" wrench. As it turns out, the break on the bolt looks a lot like the break in the tang here. An area of obvious clean break, and an area with what appears to be a dirty surface, except it's inside the break. All I'm saying is quench cracks and cold shuts suck, and if your stainless sheet or carbon bolt rod show up with unknown flaws like this, you can never say never. Whole heat of bolts recalled after that one showed up.
 
Cotherion said:
I can't say for certain how even is the force of the giant rollers or how much it is. II do know that impacts from hammer, though small hammer, can result in large force per area.

Like I use a 1 kilo hammer to hammer a nail. It'll take some blows to get that nail in. Now compare it to a situation where I do not hammer but push the nail in. How much weight do one need to push nail in? Loads, way more than one kilo.

What I'm saying is forging done using puny hammers by decent forgers can result in better compaction compared to giant rollers exerting static load. Decent forgers 'feel' the steel to result in good results.

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, just food for thought. I'm no expert but I do want to test/check my beliefs. :)
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And if they miss ONE spot, or don't hit it square-on, you have a spot with a different density than everywhere else. I'm not trying to say that forging is bad, I have more forged knives than stock removal; I'm saying that when an ABS Master Smith who makes his money forging knives and holds classes about metal smithing that other forgers (including other master smiths) regularly attend says flat out that stock removal makers start out with an inherent advantage in the consistency of material, I tend to believe him.

me2 said:
As it turns out, these are used to hold bridges together, when the regular (A325 grade) bolts aren't enough. The shank of the bolt is 1", the head is 1 5/8" or 1 11/16". The standard wet torque is well above the 600 ft-lb range of my 42" wrench. As it turns out, the break on the bolt looks a lot like the break in the tang here. An area of obvious clean break, and an area with what appears to be a dirty surface, except it's inside the break. All I'm saying is quench cracks and cold shuts suck, and if your stainless sheet or carbon bolt rod show up with unknown flaws like this, you can never say never. Whole heat of bolts recalled after that one showed up.
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That's understood, like I said--there must have been something seriously wrong with this piece of steel to shear with only hand pressure, because there is hardly any lever arm being applied. If I put the tip of a screwdriver in a vice with ten inches sticking out to the handle, any 90 pound weakling can snap it off. If I move up the shaft, however, and only the handle is exposed above the jaws....step on up, Schwarzenegger. :)
 
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maybe a quench crack, the dark section seems to suggest as much.

Cotherion said:
What I'm saying is forging done using puny hammers by decent forgers can result in better compaction compared to giant rollers exerting static load.
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there is no compaction at all, the myth of "edge packing" has no basis. The hammer moves the steel, but it does not make it take up less room. No matter how hard the hammer is swung, it isn't going to overcome the fundamental forces of nature and the space between atoms.
 
I'm not too into the idea of edge packing myself. I rely more on ht. :)

In forging I'm not expecting a steel of density greater than begun with, I do not have that much optimism :) I want forging to close off any probable cracks/holes/etc in the steel. Basically reducing these imperfections in steel.

I agree with t1mpani in that consistency is important, also in the probability in missing one spot resulting in difference of density. I say that inconsistent density is not really an issue if you are along the lines of taking out the imperfections. I'd rather have spots of increased density than lowered strength areas due to imperfections. Also a forger is highly unlikely to miss a spot. An impact from a hammer affects a larger area than the hammer surface (area of influence) and lots of hammer blows usually overlaps each other. I'm not 100% certain but I have blind faith in my forger :)

Hardheart, as said I'm not too ambitious or optimistic person. I don't expect increased density (dispite my scientific assumption) but merely hope for just the reduction of imperfections. I believe, to some extent till proven otherwise, the words of khukri forgers and my own knifemaker friends who claim this (words to this effect). Also in the old HI thread where some dude scanned a HI Bura made khuk and stated that it is a piece of steel that is closest to perfect (free from imperfections) compared to all the stock removal items he scanned. Pics, I believe, were provided then as well of the scans.

I may be wrong in my assumptions but till now I'm yet to be convinced otherwise. In my experience as an engineer regarding steel beams, I have not great confidence at factory rollers. :)

Back to topic, I say get a new one, this should be a one-off problem I believe :)
 
t1mpani said:
And if they miss ONE spot, or don't hit it square-on, you have a spot with a different density than everywhere else....
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As a physicist by education and nearly a rocket scientist at one point in my carrier, can not resist commenting on this... ;)
The thing is that no human being actually is powerful enough to do what you have said. You can not change the density of metal by just hitting it hard with a hammer, whatever the metal is and whatever is its temperature. And naturally you can not change it by not hitting...
Man, that can not be done.
Unless you have a piece of specially made shit metal just all pores and cracks all through – hence with lots of “emptiness” in it.
The good news is that with some skill and some luck you can change the micro-crystalline structure of the metal. Probably by making various kind of treatments – including hitting it hard with something heavy while it is hot… :D

That all does not change the fact that CS Spartan is one ugly piece of knife. :D
 
The warranty is no longer 1 year for folders and 5 for fixed. I suggest you send the knife in (they will tell you the same thing) with an explanation as to what happened.
 
Poez said:
As a physicist by education and nearly a rocket scientist at one point in my carrier, can not resist commenting on this... ;)
The thing is that no human being actually is powerful enough to do what you have said. You can not change the density of metal by just hitting it hard with a hammer, whatever the metal is and whatever is its temperature. And naturally you can not change it by not hitting...
Man, that can not be done.
Unless you have a piece of specially made shit metal just all pores and cracks all through – hence with lots of “emptiness” in it.
The good news is that with some skill and some luck you can change the micro-crystalline structure of the metal. Probably by making various kind of treatments – including hitting it hard with something heavy while it is hot… :D

That all does not change the fact that CS Spartan is one ugly piece of knife. :D
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I understand what you're saying, but I'm talking about folding/twisting steel into a billet shape from another shape. I'm not talking about flaws in the metal itself or molecular density, but rather leaving a gap when you've forced the steel into a shape that's different from what you started with (like a spring or a much thinner saw blade). I've run into it in poorly done Damascus, where you're grinding and suddenly find a little "cave".
 
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