I have decided to Test a $350 Plus STRIDER

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From my very first knowledge of Strider, several years ago, continuing even now, I'm skeptical as to whether the buyer was getting his/her money's worth or if they were simply over-priced for what you got. (Marketing, name, etc.)

For the most part, I've spent the last several years picking up every Strider I meet (admittadly not using them) and checking it out. I'm stilll not sure what to make of them.[...]

So, I tend to keep my mouth shut and watch and pay attention.

That´s exactly how I feel, but you wrote it much better than I could.

Strider knives are surrounded by marketing. Not to mention stories of Mr. Strider telling his customers to lick his balls. Does it automatically make their products bad, of course no.

For some reason, Strider knives have filled a niche of their own. Their knives have qualities that make them be regarded as one of the top hard-use brands. Nevermind that some of these qualities defy logic. Like when the customer receives a POS knife with clumsy F&F, problematic lock or falling thumstuds, and many fans pop out to say "It´s a user!" or something like that. Not to mention all the corny "Hardcore operators around the globe stake their lives on the ability of Strider Knives to withstand unbelievable abuse" hype. If you take their marketing strategy in perspective, it is easy to see how childish it sounds. Striders are also pretty much the only knife you can buy with "urban camo" and not be immediatelly labelled as a mall ninja retard.

For some reason, Strider became the mall ninja knife that is OK to have.

Why? Maybe that happened because of their quality and ruggedness. Maybe because of the hype. I´m like fulloflead, I honestly don´t know. Either way, the fact is that Strider got very loyal fans, and their behavior is aways very defensive.

I somewhat understand why the fans are quick to defend Strider knives so aggressively. The military knife that is out of the budget of any non-knife-nut soldier has many open flanks. And people who buy camo blades are easy targets. Striders are marketed for Hollywood-style Special Forces military operators that stake their lives on a pocket knife, but I guess (and I´m only guessing) that the vast majority of their sales goes to ordinary folks. If it was clear that Striders are easy to make knives, with a steel that is not known for thoughness, with a marketing strategy reminiscent of an action videogame, with a price tag that would make any ordinary soldier laugh out loudly, with one of the worst quality control departments in the high-end cutlery business, the logical conclusion would be that the people buying Striders are drooling idiots. So the fans are so aggressive when they defend the brand. Open flanks, like I said.

All that said, Strider may well be one of the thoughtest knives in the business. Are the fans mislead? Are the fans hypocrites with a credit card, people who secretly enjoy camo blades and Rambo-style mental pictures? Or are the fans rational and moderate folks, who have found the Holy Grail of strong knives, trying to enlighten the masses to what a real knife should be?

I honestly don´t know.
 
I'm sure theres a lot of people, who upon reading that a strider was broken after it was stabbed into a car engine block repeatedly will choose not to purchase it, having entered into it with the idea that the knife was unbreakable. This is financially damaging to the company.

The thing that might be financially damaging to the company in this case is not that the knife broke, but that some potential buyers, for some reason expected it to not break.

As has been pointed out, you take any knife and apply enough force and you can break it. Apply enough torque you can twist it, snap it or shatter it. It is completely unreasonable to expect that a knife will be completely unbreakable under all conditions unless some authority has told you otherwise. It would be absolutely foolish for anyone to make such a claim(but especially a knife manufacturer – and I am not suggesting that any manufacturer let alone Strider has made such a claim)

When a company gets a reputation for a knife being unbreakable (as opposed to extremely tough), to such an extent that a failure will damage the company's reputation/sales, then it is the people who propagated the belief that the knife is unbreakable that are damaging the company - not the person who broke the knife. The person breaking the knife is merely testing what he has been told, whereas the people who propagate the idea that the knife is unbreakable are creating un-attainable standards for the knife to meet.

In other words the problem in such as case is the people who attached unqualified and/or unreasonable expectations to the knife.
And in my opinion this is the case far more so if the people making unqualified claims are the manufacturers (and I am not saying this is the case with Strider - I am not familiar enough with the Strider company or their claims or history to know).
Having said that the person testing the knife should only test against claims the company makes, not claims the fans or detractors make, if he expects the company to warrant any major damage.

Again I am not sure if this is the case with Strider, but if a manufacturer says "our knives are unbreakable" instead of qualifying the statement with something like "under normal knife usage" or "under most conditions" then that is their own problem for making unqualified and in my opinion un attainable claims.
Similarly if company A says "we make the toughest knives around" and some one breaks them by applying a test that company B applies to company B's own knives, then again that is company A's problem for making unqualified and/or false claims. If your knife really is the toughest it will be able to take the same tests as company B's knives regardless of whether those tests are normal use, sensible etc or not. If company A's knifes don’t survive company Bs test, then quite clearly company A's knives are not the unqualified toughest are they? The moral of the story is don’t make claims you can not or will not live up to. Again I am not implying that Striker or any other manufacturer is doing so in this case.
Again company A and company B can get themselves off the hook by simply qualifying their claims eg adding "under normal circumstances" or “virtually unbreakable” (or even better a combination of the two) or a similar qualifier(s)/disqualifier(s) to the statements/claims.



This next bit of the post is not addressed at Last Visible Canary or the quoted text, but rather some general comments on the thread and on Noss’s intended test

On the subject of putting a knife in a vice and bending it, I have seen (pictures of) at least one knife manufacturer do just that and have a useable knife afterward so it is not an unattainable goal. And if one knife can do it, then why not another?
And I can think of field/survival scenarios where it may be extremely useful to do so. Same with pounding a knife on the pommel with a rock or a piece of timber through some sheet metal or masonry. Not so sure about pounding a knife with a sledge hammer.



It's fair enough to say it's not fair to test a normal knife under abnormal conditions, but I don't think a $300-450 knife, which is according to the manufacturers web site probably designed for combat conditions a normal knife, designed for normal conditions.

However if you manufacture knives which are designed for people to bet their lives on in arduous circumstances (eg battlefields, military field exercises, search and rescue etc) then it is not unreasonable to expect the knife to be able to accept punishment that under less arduous circumstances (i.e. "normal" circumstances )might be considered abuse. I.e. if you manufacture knives for that market, you aren’t manufacturing “normal” knives for normal use, almost by definition. Striker does in my opinion give a strong impression on their website that they do indeed make knives intended to be used in unusual and arduous circumstances such as battlefields.

The first page on their website says (and I have cut and a paste this)

"Hardcore operators around the globe stake their lives on the ability of Strider Knives to withstand unbelievable abuse while remaining intact and functional. Indeed, stories about the ability of Strider Knives to perform extreme and almost ridiculous tasks abound. An integral component of this characteristic is the careful choice of the materials we use to construct our products."

I.e. they indicate that they expect their knives to be able to “…stake their lives…” on their knives while their knives undergo “…unbelievable abuse…” and to be used for “…almost ridiculous tasks…” (their words).

I also note the striker website does say "All Strider Knives carry an unconditional lifetime warranty". It does not qualify that statement, there is no * or other comment indicating that there are qualifications elsewhere.

It also says:
“
What is Strider’s warranty?
Per Mick Strider:
If you break it, I'll be impressed. If I can’t fix it, I will replace it.
We'll fix anything, but we won't fix anything for free.
We Guarantee that your knife will perform. We don’t guarantee that it wont get wear marks from use.
Function and Sharpness are free, like new frills cost.
“
Which I would take to mean that they will restore your knife to the point it will cut, pry and do the other functional stuff expected of a new knife of it’s class/model for free, but you may have to pay to have it made cosmetically “as new”.

So if someone busts one of their knives, I would expect them to replace or repair it for the costs of postage as the site states.
If they don't want to do that then all they need do is to qualify their warranty statement and perhaps qualify the statements that tend to indicate that they expect their knives to take abuse.
 
BTW....
Busse's aren't Ferraris, those are William Henry knives. Busses are the Hummers. Not the H2 or the H3, but the H1, only with the extra armored plating!

You are totally correct, you're analogy is better than mine. I was thinking of quality terms not durability, but maybe an M-1 tank would be an even better analogy on those terms!:D Thanks for the more appropriate vehicle analogy anyway.
 
A few posts back there was a good statement about CNC cut micarta scales.

Try to price out a nice set of micarta 1911 grips. $50 is probably close to the cheapest you will find. Many will be more expensive.

Most Busse scales use thicker material and much more intricate machining.

The scales alone blow the whole $2.00 theory out of the water.

Now if you want a knife to survive abuse you have to make sure it will not break. Busse does this three ways.

#1. The knives are designed in a way that eliminates stress risers. Big Choils might seem like a way to add another grip option but they also eliminate stress risers at the blade to handle transition. The Busse armored tip and penetrator tips strengthen that weak spot on knives intended for stabbing. The full tang construction ensures the strength of the handle.

#2. Every knife is tested with a penetrating dye test to find surface flaws. Every crack starts somewhere, surface flaws are miniature stress risers that allow crack formation and propogation. A knife without surface flaws is going to be harder to break than a knife with surface flaws.

#3. Infi steel. A few years back Busse made knives with A2, D2, S7, etc. If Infi is inferior why would he switch? It's more expensive, he has to order up special batches if he wants a different thickness blank and from what I have heard it isn't very easy to work with.

Where exactly is Busse cutting corners on these knives?

A Fusion Battle Mistress costs between $387 and $697. To be more exact, the combat grade .250" thick FBM costs between $387 and $527, while the .320" thick Limited Edition is $697, there are no options available on the LE.

That's expensive but it's a huge knife and you can't beat the guarantee. Do you know how much a similar sized Randall would cost? Which would you rather pay for?

Now for the question about Infi jack hammer bits, I don't think there is any market for a stain resistant bit. They get worn out before they rust. Any one that bends a jack hammer bit isn't doing something right and 80 hours of heat treat and cryogenic stress relief would make it too expensive. S7 wins for jack hammer bits.

The last time I checked I wasn't carrying around a jack hammer bit just in case. I carry a knife. Infi does everything I ask of a knife and more. If it has to do some emergency jack hammer duty it's nice to know that it can.
 
I own and have used a few Strider SMF's their not the worst knives but their not the best. Droping one will damage it more than putting it in a vise and trying to break it in half (ive done both) dust is also a big issue.

How dose someone "stake their life" on a knife? If your out of ammo and need to stab someone in hand to hand combat a 9 dollar chinese survival knife will do the same thing to them maybe more than a smf due to the longer blade. The strider is a good knife but its built from parts bought from other people and simply put together in a "shop". At least Busse Combat dosnt say crap about people betting their lives on them but their 10x tougher than any strider... Then they put some crazy useless blade shape on a "custom" and sell it for 975 for a SMF "MSC" or 1250 for a RC "MSC or DDC" they make a few each month and I'm sure make a 300-700 dollar profit.

Strider makes good knives but half of it is hype.
 
The Strider mystery seems pretty clear to me. Dwyer was a Marine and the Strider shop initially marketed to Marines, the absolute pinnacle of leg infantry. You just can't get a better fighter unless you pick from a spec-ops unit, and even then... (Soapbox moment: Army SF needs to recruit more Marines).

So what does that kind of guy want? Something that won't rust and/or break like a Ka-Bar, and something less Army than a Randall.

So they bumped up to 1/4" stock, breaking at least a century of 3/16" Ka-Bar tradition, and used ATS-34, the premium stainless steel at the time (superior to Randall Solingen 440B), and gave it the recognized best heat treatment in the industry, by Paul Bos.

Why ATS-34 and not A-2 or 5160? Because you can't sell a Ferrari to a Pygmy for 5 fish and a monkey leg if he doesn't know what it is. Benchmade and Emerson Knives and many other knives that Marines used had ATS-34 written on them. They trusted it.

CPM S30V became recognized as being superior to ATS-34. Strider began using the more expensive steel, but didn't raise their prices. In fact, I haven't seen a price increase on fixed blades since I discovered Strider in 2002. Loyalty is a two way street, never forget that.

The Army saw what the Marines were doing, and wanted to do it too (except for the fighting in Ramadi part), and in at least a century's worth of tradition, they went out and got what the Marines had. Now Strider was on the road to success.

The collectors saw what the Army had...

It makes perfect sense to me anyway. And yes, I'm in the Army, so I know the deal. Marines set the pace and example for other combat arms to follow.
 
Here's an example for you: a Chandler M-40 (Marine sniper rifle) costs about $6000, or about $4000 more than you could have a competent gunsmith not named Chandler build one.

Chandlers, despite whatever you may think about the brothers, are recognized by rational people as being among the top ten rifle makers in the world, even though they are sometimes outshot by inferior breeds of rifles.

It's simple: do you want 1/2 MOA accuracy for the life of your rifle, or do you want 3/8 MOA accuracy until a part wears down or you drop it or...?

They wouldn't be able to sell $6000 versions of a $2000 rifle if it were purely based in hype.

You can go out and get yourself a knife that will outperform one or two aspects of a Busse or Strider, possibly even for less money. But you won't get the whole package, and from one event to another it will gradually become evident that it is not the superior knife.

Just because it says "KNIFE" on the package doesn't mean it was meant for you. My sushi man doesn't buy Strider or Busse. If you don't leave the kitchen, maybe you shouldn't either.
 
The Strider mystery seems pretty clear to me. Dwyer was a Marine and the Strider shop initially marketed to Marines, the absolute pinnacle of leg infantry. You just can't get a better fighter unless you pick from a spec-ops unit, and even then... (Soapbox moment: Army SF needs to recruit more Marines).

So what does that kind of guy want? Something that won't rust and/or break like a Ka-Bar, and something less Army than a Randall.

So they bumped up to 1/4" stock, breaking at least a century of 3/16" Ka-Bar tradition, and used ATS-34, the premium stainless steel at the time (superior to Randall Solingen 440B), and gave it the recognized best heat treatment in the industry, by Paul Bos.

Why ATS-34 and not A-2 or 5160? Because you can't sell a Ferrari to a Pygmy for 5 fish and a monkey leg if he doesn't know what it is. Benchmade and Emerson Knives and many other knives that Marines used had ATS-34 written on them. They trusted it.

CPM S30V became recognized as being superior to ATS-34. Strider began using the more expensive steel, but didn't raise their prices. In fact, I haven't seen a price increase on fixed blades since I discovered Strider in 2002. Loyalty is a two way street, never forget that.

The Army saw what the Marines were doing, and wanted to do it too (except for the fighting in Ramadi part), and in at least a century's worth of tradition, they went out and got what the Marines had. Now Strider was on the road to success.

The collectors saw what the Army had...

It makes perfect sense to me anyway. And yes, I'm in the Army, so I know the deal. Marines set the pace and example for other combat arms to follow.

Here's an example for you: a Chandler M-40 (Marine sniper rifle) costs about $6000, or about $4000 more than you could have a competent gunsmith not named Chandler build one.

Chandlers, despite whatever you may think about the brothers, are recognized by rational people as being among the top ten rifle makers in the world, even though they are sometimes outshot by inferior breeds of rifles.

It's simple: do you want 1/2 MOA accuracy for the life of your rifle, or do you want 3/8 MOA accuracy until a part wears down or you drop it or...?

They wouldn't be able to sell $6000 versions of a $2000 rifle if it were purely based in hype.

You can go out and get yourself a knife that will outperform one or two aspects of a Busse or Strider, possibly even for less money. But you won't get the whole package, and from one event to another it will gradually become evident that it is not the superior knife.

Just because it says "KNIFE" on the package doesn't mean it was meant for you. My sushi man doesn't buy Strider or Busse. If you don't leave the kitchen, maybe you shouldn't either.


Well said.

Semper Fi! :D :thumbup:

John

PS - PM Me for your Christmas Card, Amigo! :D
 
I think INFI just feels better when you cut yourself :D :D

INFI ! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: No Regrets. I believe that Busse supplies certain military outfits as well. The difference for me is I have held, inspected, compared, and used many knives, and there is no doubt in my mind that Busse stacks up to all of them and then some. No knock on any of the other knives though. Someone's gotta be the best! Just the way it is.
 
INFI ! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: No Regrets. I believe that Busse supplies certain military outfits as well. The difference for me is I have held, inspected, compared, and used many knives, and there is no doubt in my mind that Busse stacks up to all of them and then some. No knock on any of the other knives though. Someone's gotta be the best! Just the way it is.


Just make sure you keep them sheathed:D and in your safe:D

128_2814.jpg

pic is not mine, just pilfered.:D
 
Interesting thread. From the beginning my thoughts was, where is this stupid kid coming from. Then I got convinced that Noss does has his point, Its his money, he can do what ever with it.

If a company gives a promised "no matter what, we replace it" kinda warranty, they have to stick it, even that means a customer intentionally trying to slap them in the face, even means more than once. If the company don't have the heart to keep their wanranty promise, don't say it.

It isn't hard for me to understand what ppl are doing with their knives. We see kids bring guns to school and killing others, media blame on violence in movie, but I had gun access when i was that age, i did watch a lot of violence in movie, but I am not the one who brings a gun to school! You can't can't expect everyone buying knife for the same purpose.

11 pgs worth of thread. Where is the test? Noss, is your strider on the way already. I don't want you to talk the talk. Cuz you talk pretty Big in thread. Not the knife world is watch, it is WE are watching YOU.

I won't do it with my $400 knife, but I want to see someone else does it :D Its a thrill to see something so precious to be messing with.
 
I got a better idea! Why not set 5 machine up, one strider, one Busse, one CRT, .....etc. Doing the stress test at the same time!

Use a wide angle camera to film the whole thing, 5 other camera to zoom on detail. 2200+ worth of knives in mintes, wow, to see which is the last knife standing :eek:

Wow, even think about it that feels good. How about that! Test knife one by one just enough excitment.

How about set 5 machine up and doing it LIVE through internet!! Wow, my idea just gets better and better. With Live video testing, we can use some gambling too, since you will be the host, perhaps you can make few bucks too for your next knife to abuse :D :thumbup:
 
Oh, one more thing Busse build a Wakazashi style blade that was thrown. WHO ELSE HAS EVER, AND I MEAN EVER THROWN, LET ALONE GUARANTEED A SWORD! LET ALONE GUARANTEED A SWORD AGAINST BREAKING WHEN THROWN!!!!! I can still hardly believe it. If you don't believe me, go ahead, throw that sword... throw it, I dare you! See if Mick or Mad Dog or Paul Chen or even Rob Criswell or Bark River will guarantee it against throwing!

I like Busse too, but...
FYI, Bark River replaced a knife that was "accidently" dropped into a fire, and burned to the point that the handles were destroyed and the temper possibly compromised...I'm pretty sure they would cover something silly like sword throwing...

Desmond
 
I like Busse too, but...
FYI, Bark River replaced a knife that was "accidently" dropped into a fire, and burned to the point that the handles were destroyed and the temper possibly compromised...I'm pretty sure they would cover something silly like sword throwing...
Desmond
Desmond, that may be true, but Bark River doesn't have such a guarantee in writing. Here it is:
"Lifetime Warranty
All Bark River knives and axes are guaranteed against manufacturing defects for life. If you have any problem with our product, just return it to us and we will repair or replace it. If you would like us to refurbish or re-sharpen the product please enclose $8.00 for shipping back to you."
.
IMO,... It sounds VERY open to interpretation. If they can get good PR on the 'net by replacing that knife, great. Will he do it every time? Can't say, it's not it in writing. BTW.... I don't want to disrespect Bark River because I know they're REALLY great knives, BUT, The guarantee isn't as good as Busse's, at least not on paper, virtual or otherwise.
 
Desmond, that may be true, but Bark River doesn't have such a guarantee in writing. Here it is:
"Lifetime Warranty
All Bark River knives and axes are guaranteed against manufacturing defects for life. If you have any problem with our product, just return it to us and we will repair or replace it. If you would like us to refurbish or re-sharpen the product please enclose $8.00 for shipping back to you."
.
IMO,... It sounds VERY open to interpretation. If they can get good PR on the 'net by replacing that knife, great. Will he do it every time? Can't say, it's not it in writing. BTW.... I don't want to disrespect Bark River because I know they're REALLY great knives, BUT, The guarantee isn't as good as Busse's, at least not on paper, virtual or otherwise.


Well, as long as you realize they're really great knives I will not have the Barkie crew over here for a lynching.:D
Honestly I find Barkies are perfectly ground/edged/spined/coated for "proper knife usage." i.e, skinning, cutting meat, batoning, general utility, bushcraft, whereas Busses are better at smashing cement blocks, prying doors, etc, and appropriately summed up in this quote from the movie Jackie Brown:

Ordell Robbie: AK-47. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every XXXXXXXXXXXX in the room, accept no substitutes.

My choice depends on my application.
Desmond
 
I agree that Bark River is a good knife, too. Not a Busse, but if you ask me Barkies have a very reasonable price:quality ratio. They do the job they're meant to do and have good fit/finish. Not custom quality, but they're not meant to be.
 
Ask Hankins, but in a nutshell I will tell you. INFI isn't tougher than S-7 and it isn't more wear resistant than cru-wear and it isn't more corrosion resistant than S30V. But what it is, is nearly the equal of all those in each category. So when you combine all the categories, you get a steel that will consistenly beat all the others in overall performance. Plain and simple S-7 is super tough, but it's wear resistance is low, S30V is corrosion resistant but it's toughness is low, get it. INFI isn't the best at any one thing it's just the best overall. The closest thing that I would say a steel comes to it is Johannins Modified A8 steel. It has similar properties and it is also a proprietary steel. No one else uses it.

INFI's wear resistance was enough that Hankins just did not have the means to satin finjish the blade. My guess is that he could have done it, but he most likely would have destroyed the heat treat and that is what he wanted to avoid.

Greco A2 won't even come close to INFI, of that there is no doubt.
Neither will 5160. I like 5160 but I have broken 5160 blades doing stuff that I routinely do with INFI.

S-7 may be tougher I do not know for sure, but in overall hard use it won't last as long due to INFI's wear and crrosion resistance.

INFI has a tendency to roll and not chip even at an Rc of 60. I'd bet that if you could convince Busse to drop Rc to 56-57, there would be no contest in toughness.

INFI is related to chipper type steels, hence it's wear resistance and toughness.

I guess what surprisesme is that everything I have stated has been said before.

Oh and by the way a Std New Battle Mistress goes for $387. The LE is $700. So that is the range.

$387 is not bad considering you are getting the best steel available for all around use, that there is.

check out this+ do a google search on A8 steel: http://www.efunda.com/Materials/all...ol.cfm?ID=AISI_A8&prop=all&Page_Title=AISI A8 There is a rumor on KF that INFI is A8,which is not a proprietory steel,but a common steel from A series.INFI holds a very mediocre edge as is expected from any low-carbon steel.I choose a 100.00 knife from S7 any day over a knife with similar? toughness but more stainless for 500.00.I`ll just bother to wipe mine after use and keep 400.00.
 
I really like your testings noss, the main reason that you get so many attacks from strider fanboys is because it probably takes the same amount of brutality/abuse to destroy a $400 strider than the cheap bushman. That is what most people are affraid of, not the destruction itself but the amount of abuse will not be proportional to the price.
I would not blame if strider doesn't honor the warranty afterall there isn't a knife that is indistructible and you destroy it purposly. If you set up a paypal account and accept donations t for the knife that way if they honor it you can sell the knife and donate to charity that will shut a lot of mouths about you being a cheapskape... But i do have a lot of respect for you, i'd be worn out after 10 min of testing.
 
Oh, one more thing Busse build a Wakazashi style blade that was thrown. WHO ELSE HAS EVER, AND I MEAN EVER THROWN, LET ALONE GUARANTEED A SWORD! LET ALONE GUARANTEED A SWORD AGAINST BREAKING WHEN THROWN!!!!! I can still hardly believe it. If you don't believe me, go ahead, throw that sword... throw it, I dare you! See if Mick or Mad Dog or Paul Chen or even Rob Criswell or Bark River will guarantee it against throwing!

I like Busse too, but...
FYI, Bark River replaced a knife that was "accidently" dropped into a fire, and burned to the point that the handles were destroyed and the temper possibly compromised...I'm pretty sure they would cover something silly like sword throwing...

Desmond
Buy a yatagan French Chassepot bayonet or a German sword bayonet from 19th century for 50.00$ at a gun show and throw it until cows come home:)
 
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