I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels

[zorandjurkic]

View attachment 2832545

This chart by Dr. Larrin shows that you would not gain much, if any, toughness by running Magnacut below 60 hrc. 61/62 seems to be a good hardness for Magnacut if you want it towards the tougher side. Pushed to 64 and it beats AEB-L at 64 in toughness, but exceeds AEB-l everywhere except cost.

It seem that Magnacut is best at 62,5 for hardness and toughess. On 59 would be about 20 and on 62-63 about 15 ft/lbs. But I dont quite understand meaning "toughness". Is this pure elasticity ( like Cold Steel test in degrees) or endurance to the point of breaking (total bending)?

 

[Synov]

It seem that Magnacut is best at 62,5 for hardness and toughess. On 59 would be about 20 and on 62-63 about 15 ft/lbs. But I dont quite understand meaning "toughness". Is this pure elasticity ( like Cold Steel test in degrees) or endurance to the point of breaking (total bending)?

It's energy needed to fracture the steel, determined by a charpy impact test on uniform samples. The test is how high a pendulum needs to swing from to form a crack in the steel.

 

[DeadboxHero]

The test is how high a pendulum needs to swing from to form a crack in the steel.

It swings from the same starting position, all the samples are broken in half, not just cracked. The test measures the energy absorbed by measuring the decrease in the pendulums swing after impact/fracture.

 

[OgreKing]

Hey. I've been a lurker here for what seems like decades. This is super interesting to me. I wonder what Larrin thinks about the variable results others have gotten?

My steels are 440c, 154cm, Aeb-l, 52100, d-2, 1084 and 1075, 5160, w-2 and a nice piece of sup-9.

It looks like my priorities have been toughness and ease of maintenance over edge retention.

AEB-L at 61rc has better edge holding, is tougher, and is more stainless, than 52100.....? Then what advantage does 52100 have over AEB-L?

I think the 52100 is more forgeable, though it crumbles if you get it too hot. D-2 is a bitch on the anvil, and I've never tried to do Aeb-l or 440c, but they would likely be even more red hard. I instinctively feel that the 440C would have the same red short problems as the 52100. I have always used the stainless when I'm doing Stock Removal, and the tool steels and HC when I'm forging. I have never sold a knife, but I give them away as gifts to friends and family.

Now, my reason for posting. I don't want to start a shitstorm here, but I just have to ask- has anyone else looked at Jim Hrisoulas' modern or advanced bladesmith's books and the information on different steels? I guess it was written in the eighties, so there's that. Why do forging bladesmiths from that time have such a low opinion of the stainless steels vs the HC steels, 10xx? Paraphrasing, but he said," Stainless steels can make a blade that matches a Hc steel with proper treatment" or something similar. Well, the Simple steels we forge are generally tougher than the Stainless in larger sizes, but edge retention is a whole different ball park. And tool steels are unsurprisingly tough and retain their edges way better than the anecdotes would appear.

Those books jive with me in almost every other way, BTW. I'm getting too old to even use the hammer dependably, but my time forging 52100, D-2, and the simpler steels is pretty vividly etched into my head. If edge packing really worked I'd do a stainless blade in stock removal and then forge the edge.

 

[ankaoutdoor]

Bu kesinlikle M,T,&E alt forumunda sabitlenmeli. knife

 

[navman]

Translation from Turkish: "This should definitely be pinned in the M,T,&E subforum"

 

[Miller Bros fan]

What steel do you all recommend for a fixed blade survival knife for camping/hiking where you need to do a lot of chopping wood for fire and might need to stand on to support your weight to climb your way out incase of a emergency? Any brands? I know Miller Bros makes a quality knife but they are $$$. I was thinking of something like the Schrade SCHF3 it's either in 7Cr17 or 8Cr13MoV high carbon stainless steel or should I avoid Schrade?

 

[SharpBits]

What steel do you all recommend for a fixed blade survival knife for camping/hiking where you need to do a lot of chopping wood for fire and might need to stand on to climb your way out incase of a emergency. Any brands? I know Miller Bros makes a quality knife but they are $$$.

Steel choice = 3V

 

[submachina]

I wonder what Larrin thinks about the variable results others have gotten?

Ranking the Steel Ranking Articles - Knife Steel Nerds

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Steel choice = 3V

Not if you live in the tropics, I just noticed some rust on my Magnacut, no 3V for me.

 

[SharpBits]

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Note: I now have a steel ratings article of my own, read it here: Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist Intro Thanks to Stacy Apelt for becoming a Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporter! Based on a poll of Knife Steel Nerds Patreon voting members, we have decided to purchase a small impact tester...

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Not if you live in the tropics, I just noticed some rust on my Magnacut, no 3V for me.

Magnacut should not rust in the tropics. Either a bad heat treat, or the steel has contamination from the grinder, or the steel is mis-marked. Contamination can be cleaned off. Who is the maker?

 

[Chronovore]

Ranking the Steel Ranking Articles - Knife Steel Nerds

Note: I now have a steel ratings article of my own, read it here: Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist Intro Thanks to Stacy Apelt for becoming a Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporter! Based on a poll of Knife Steel Nerds Patreon voting members, we have decided to purchase a small impact tester...

knifesteelnerds.com

Not if you live in the tropics, I just noticed some rust on my Magnacut, no 3V for me.

Magnacut should not rust in the tropics. Either a bad heat treat, or the steel has contamination from the grinder, or the steel is mis-marked. Contamination can be cleaned off. Who is the maker?

I get the need for stainless. Summers for me, it's my sweat and lack of evaporation with 90% or greater humidity. While 3V has some corrosion resistance (more than D2), I can occasionally spot 8Cr13Mov or AUS-8 in my pocket if I'm not vigilant. The latter is the issue. While I do typically wipe off blades, try to keep things clean, and occasionally oil them; it's the question of how much work should be required, how much you'll actually do, and the consequences for not doing it. Good corrosion resistance is a welcome hedge.

That said, SharpBits is right. MagnaCut should have enough corrosion resistance for just about anyone. Barring "wrong steel", just clean it up and don't worry about it.

BTW, I've always wondered why we don't see more 14C28N or 12C27 in choppers.

 

[submachina]

Magnacut should not rust in the tropics. Either a bad heat treat, or the steel has contamination from the grinder, or the steel is mis-marked. Contamination can be cleaned off. Who is the maker?

Viper, the answer is a)
Abysmal customer service too.

 

[Ian Minton]

Recently I was able to acquire a used CATRA machine, so I heat treated just about every knife steel I had, made 57 knives with the help of knifemaker Shawn Houston, and tested them all to see which cut the longest. For a few of the steels I did multiple heat treatments to look at a couple variables and to see the effect of hardness. I also compared edge retention and toughness to see which steels have the best balance of properties. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/

This is very comprehensive, thank you for all the work. And for sharing!!

 

[Dagoth_Blur]

BTW, I've always wondered why we don't see more 14C28N or 12C27 in choppers.

Perhaps the heat treat protocol including cryo for best results just makes it not economically worth it for most companies?

 

[Chronovore]

Perhaps the heat treat protocol including cryo for best results just makes it not economically worth it for most companies?

I don't know how much that costs but I know neither of those Swedish steels are particularly expensive. I know China is part of the economic equation here but you can find reasonably well-made modern folders in 14C28N for less than Spyderco's "G10 upcharge" (the price difference between the same models in FRN versus G10). Lately, it seems like 14C28N and Nitro-V have become go-to budget steels for a lot of the Chinese brands. Just recently, I've seen a few $50ish fixed blades coming out in 14C28N. I don't know how many of those knives get cryo or optimum heat treatments in general but they tend to be in the 58-60 HRC range and achieve good performance relative to other blade steels within their price range.

I don't see any big choppers there but the Chinese brands don't do much of those anyway. On the one hand, the Chinese companies using 14C28N seem more focused on EDC. On the other hand, I think there are legal challenges for longer blades elsewhere in international markets that limit interest in producing them.

 

[Dagoth_Blur]

I don't know how much that costs but I know neither of those Swedish steels are particularly expensive. I know China is part of the economic equation here but you can find reasonably well-made modern folders in 14C28N for less than Spyderco's "G10 upcharge" (the price difference between the same models in FRN versus G10). Lately, it seems like 14C28N and Nitro-V have become go-to budget steels for a lot of the Chinese brands. Just recently, I've seen a few $50ish fixed blades coming out in 14C28N. I don't know how many of those knives get cryo or optimum heat treatments in general but they tend to be in the 58-60 HRC range and achieve good performance relative to other blade steels within their price range.

I don't see any big choppers there but the Chinese brands don't do much of those anyway. On the one hand, the Chinese companies using 14C28N seem more focused on EDC. On the other hand, I think there are legal challenges for longer blades elsewhere in international markets that limit interest in producing them.

Do you think much of the Chinese made 14c28n/12c27 is actually the Chinese equivalent and not actually Sandvik steel?

 

[Chronovore]

Do you think much of the Chinese made 14c28n/12c27 is actually the Chinese equivalent and not actually Sandvik steel?

While there are still some bad actors out there, major brands such as Civivi, Kubey, and Bestech are almost certainly importing real 14C28N in the same way that they or their parent companies are using real S35VN, M390, etc.. These companies have had lots of their products third-party tested for steel identity. A direct analog could pass, such as 10Cr15CoMoV for VG-10. There actually had been some concerns there, such as on older Civivi knives in "VG-10" that might have been 10Cr15CoMoV. If true, I'm not sure that it was an outright attempt at fraud or trickery versus them posting the known analog name with which Western consumers would have familiarity. In any case, the new Civivi and Sencut models I've seen in this steel type over the last five years or so have been stamped 10Cr15CoMoV.

So that's a specific and limited case involving a direct analog. I only mention it for the sake of being thorough. I don't think it's a real issue for the major brands today. If it was though, is there even a Chinese analog of 14C28N?

Coincidentally, Bestech actually got in hot water recently for going the opposite direction. The makers of MagnaCut did not want Chinese companies using it. Bestech wanted to use it. So Bestech started importing it via a third party. It was confirmed to be real MagnaCut. So they went after Bestech via the name and Bestech had to subsequently stamp their MagnaCut knives "M-Cut" instead of "MagnaCut". (The MagnaCut knives Bestech manufactures for American companies still get stamped "MagnaCut". Only their self-branded knives seem to have been affected.)

 

[Dagoth_Blur]

While there are still some bad actors out there, major brands such as Civivi, Kubey, and Bestech are almost certainly importing real 14C28N in the same way that they or their parent companies are using real S35VN, M390, etc.. These companies have had lots of their products third-party tested for steel identity. A direct analog could pass, such as 10Cr15CoMoV for VG-10. There actually had been some concerns there, such as on older Civivi knives in "VG-10" that might have been 10Cr15CoMoV. If true, I'm not sure that it was an outright attempt at fraud or trickery versus them posting the known analog name with which Western consumers would have familiarity. In any case, the new Civivi and Sencut models I've seen in this steel type over the last five years or so have been stamped 10Cr15CoMoV.

So that's a specific and limited case involving a direct analog. I only mention it for the sake of being thorough. I don't think it's a real issue for the major brands today. If it was though, is there even a Chinese analog of 14C28N?

Coincidentally, Bestech actually got in hot water recently for going the opposite direction. The makers of MagnaCut did not want Chinese companies using it. Bestech wanted to use it. So Bestech started importing it via a third party. It was confirmed to be real MagnaCut. So they went after Bestech via the name and Bestech had to subsequently stamp their MagnaCut knives "M-Cut" instead of "MagnaCut". (The MagnaCut knives Bestech manufactures for American companies still get stamped "MagnaCut". Only their self-branded knives seem to have been affected.)

Thanks for the detailed answer.