If a knife is very expensive you will choose to buy fake?

[killgar]

Wow, 13 pages.

Personally, I couldn't care less what other people buy or what their reasons are for buying it. And I don't feel the need to judge them for it. It's their money after all.

As far as a copy/knock-off/counterfeit knife being a crime against humanity like many consider it to be, I've got much more important things to worry about in my life. I'll try to sympathize with knife manufacturers whose knife designs get copied, right after I get done sympathizing with all the victims of rape, murder, bombings, house fires, tornados, hurricanes, killed by drunk drivers, etc, etc, etc.

But I know, this is Bladeforums, and we need to talk (argue) about something.

 

[evilgreg]

But I know, this is Bladeforums, and we need to talk (argue) about something.

Deepest truth in the thread so far

 

[PURPLEDC]

I've seen many fakes in person at flea markets of Strider, Dark Ops, Cold Steel, Spyderco they've all been garbage and poorly represented the knives they copied as I'm familar with the typical quality of those brands. So, that makes your arguement null and void. Thanks for assuming though.




Strider is building more PT's so why buy an overpriced fake?




That point is vividly clear.




And, in the end you'd still have a fake. Well done.

1. Handling some fakes at a flea market doesnt make you an expert on all fakes. Just like looking at one prius doesnt make me an expert on all cars. And to look at something isnt to use it. And to not use it means theres much about your opinion of quality that would in fact be you assuming. Mick strider himself has been quoted as saying he has seen fakes that he couldnt tell from his own work. If he himself got this impression and he makes them isnt it reasonable to assume that simply the fakes you have seen werent impressive? Ive been collecting knives for 20+ years. And Im telling you that the 0777 clone in my pocket is a damn good knife at the price I paid. It has no company logos and therefore to me doesnt qualify as a counterfeit any more than a Microtech. But see I actually bought the knife, and used it and THEN developed an opinion. I couldnt have done that by just looking at it.

2. If strider clones are overpriced then strider originals are grossly overpriced. Therefore the reason to buy a fake strider would be so that you could have a knife that will perform most if not all of the same tasks as the strider as long as abuse is not put into the equation and keep the real strider in good condition because some cant beat on an expensive knife. Again Im not saying all clones are great because they arent. But you yourself are assuming that they are all crap.

3. I dont think anyone is arguing that a fake or a clone is an item that carries prestige. Prestige is a quality we bestow upon an item. I highly doubt anyone buys a fake for the purpose of impressing anyone. At least i wouldnt. I buy what I like based on price. And if a product will perform the tasks I need it to and I like it then it fits my requirements just fine. And having now owned the 0777 clone, I now know about the ergonomics of the handle shape, the size and weight of the original. And that makes me want the original even more. Even if im not prepared to pay second hand market prices. So in my case this clone is stimulating a small part of the economy. And ensured that the mail man had something to deliever and secure his job. Splitting hairs is fun. And the buttfly effect can be applied in my situation too.

I don't know as I don't act as a buying liason for the flea market booths. I can say the same booths sell legit knives costing north of $400 for particular blades. Some were just run of the mill Cold Steels at or above MSRP btw. which made me chuckle. Sad thing is, people were buying from the booth like crazy.

did any of the fakes have Titanium handles? Carbon fiber? If not at least the Titanium I think we are talking different calibers of knives here.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Deepest truth in the thread so far

You guys are both WRONG! (further proving your point)

 

[Czechmate]

1. Handling some fakes at a flea market doesnt make you an expert on all fakes. Just like looking at one prius doesnt make me an expert on all cars. And to look at something isnt to use it. And to not use it means theres much about your opinion of quality that would in fact be you assuming. Mick strider himself has been quoted as saying he has seen fakes that he couldnt tell from his own work. If he himself got this impression and he makes them isnt it reasonable to assume that simply the fakes you have seen werent impressive? Ive been collecting knives for 20+ years. And Im telling you that the 0777 clone in my pocket is a damn good knife at the price I paid. It has no company logos and therefore to me doesnt qualify as a counterfeit any more than a Microtech. But see I actually bought the knife, and used it and THEN developed an opinion. I couldnt have done that by just looking at it.

I never claimed to be an expert on fakes, that's your job.

2. If strider clones are overpriced then strider originals are grossly overpriced. Therefore the reason to buy a fake strider would be so that you could have a knife that will perform most if not all of the same tasks as the strider as long as abuse is not put into the equation and keep the real strider in good condition because some cant beat on an expensive knife. Again Im not saying all clones are great because they arent. But you yourself are assuming that they are all crap.

Striders as well as every other folding knife out there past the price point of an Opinel are overpriced as you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns in cutting ability. That's really not the issue here though...

3. I dont think anyone is arguing that a fake or a clone is an item that carries prestige. Prestige is a quality we bestow upon an item. I highly doubt anyone buys a fake for the purpose of impressing anyone. At least i wouldnt. I buy what I like based on price. And if a product will perform the tasks I need it to and I like it then it fits my requirements just fine. And having now owned the 0777 clone, I now know about the ergonomics of the handle shape, the size and weight of the original. And that makes me want the original even more. Even if im not prepared to pay second hand market prices. So in my case this clone is stimulating a small part of the economy. And ensured that the mail man had something to deliever and secure his job. Splitting hairs is fun. And the buttfly effect can be applied in my situation too.

The money spent on a fake 0777 could've been used towards a real one.


The dictionary definition gave some insight as to what I've overlooked before; fakes can never attain this:

pres·tige (pr-stzh, -stj)
n.
1. The level of respect at which one is regarded by others; standing.
2. A person's high standing among others; honor or esteem.
3. Widely recognized prominence, distinction, or importance: a position of prestige in diplomatic circles.
4. Reputation or influence arising from success, achievement, rank, or other favorable attributes.
5. Distinction or reputation attaching to a person or thing and thus possessing a cachet for others.
6. Having or showing success, rank, wealth, etc.: a prestige car.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[steff27]

Therefore the reason to buy a fake strider would be so that you could have a knife that will perform most if not all of the same tasks as the strider as long as abuse is not put into the equation and keep the real strider in good condition because some cant beat on an expensive knife.

Why not buy a Benchmade Adamas instead? Or a lightly used ZT, ...
These knives will perform at least as good as the fake strider.

That's why I don't buy the "I want the performance of the real but can't afford it, thus I'll buy the fake" argument. Because for every price point for a fake knife, you can buy a high quality knife from a reputable manufacturer.

 

[evilgreg]

That's why I don't buy the "I want the performance of the real but can't afford it, thus I'll buy the fake" argument. Because for every price point for a fake knife, you can buy a high quality knife from a reputable manufacturer.

That's the same reason I laugh off the suggestions that there is some fabulous value beyond the cache of possessing a rare or expensive knife. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, I can't imagine anyone is goofy enough to suggest that a CRK, Strider, Hinderer or whatever other luxury priced knife you choose would actually significantly outperform a Spyderco Military or Benchmade 710. I buy some expensive knives, but I don't delude myself into believing that there is some magical value proposition to them. They're a luxury item, I can afford them and I want them--that's all I need.

At the same time, claiming all the clones are terrible knives is silly as well. I've handled some Kevin John knives that were very well made, and pretending that's not the case--as so many do in this thread--won't make it true.

 

[Dorito Monk]

I think many might take the same stance as you. That they would buy a blackjack copy of a randall but not the chinese knife. But I beg to ask what is the real difference? Lets say the chinese is an obvious reproduction of a hinderer yet doesnt have the hinderer name on it like many of these copies are and simply says titanium where the hinderer name once was. Or a sebenza clone with the word Kevin john on it. Why is it morally acceptable for one USA knifemaker to steal the property of anothers but its a problem if a chinese manufacturer does? Thats I guess my biggest problem with this. Is that some people want to change the definition of a replica or copy to fit their own needs and desires. Please understand Im not trying to single you out, I see your opinion come up a lot and I really am struggling to not find it at least slightly hypocritical. I will also hear people say that Randall knives have been around for decades and copied so many times that the designs are now public domain but I doubt if those in conrtrol of Randall knives feel the same way. If we are going to say stealing isnt right we cant say, well in this case because its what I want and its not made in china then its ok.

I think you've misunderstood my post - I don't see that there's anything hypocritical about it, nor am I changing definitions to suit my needs or making exceptions for American companies.

I don't buy fakes (ie: knives marketed specifically with the intent to dupe someone), but I am perfectly willing to buy copies, be they Chinese or American. The ones I listed in that post all happened to be American makers, but I've bought a few Chinese-brand knives (Ganzo, Sanrenmu, Enlan), some of which obviously took their designs from other makers (for example, the Ganzo 704 is an obvious clone of the HK 14205). I didn't buy the Ganzo because I wanted a 14205 to show off to my friends or some nonsense but couldn't afford one, I bought the Ganzo because I wanted a 14$ Ganzo. Like I said, what I stay away from are fakes that are marketed as originals (ie: A cheaply made knife made to look like a Hinderer, complete with Hinderer logos and Hinderer pricetag) - I wouldn't buy an American made fake of that type any more than I would a Chinese version (not that there are any American made fakes of that nature in the first place).

Additionally, I don't personally give a tinker's damn about what other people spend their own money on, within reason. I stay away from outright fakes that are marketed as the real thing, but if someone else wants to go out and buy said fakes, it is pretty much fine by me. Whining at them about morality over the internet, or using trite, nonsensical catch-phrases like "Fake knives are 4 Fake People!" isn't going to do anybody any good, or stop the fakes from being produced for that matter.

I do agree with you that there is a fair amount of hypocrisy at work in discussions like these. I think it's extremely funny how often they devolve into a few people ranting at all and sundry for being 'morally bankrupt' or 'thieves' or 'cheats', just for buying copy/knockoff knives. These same people will often buy from Cold Steel, Blackjack, Boker, or any vast number of Custom makers who do the very same things that Sanrenmu / Ganzo / Enlan do (ie: rip off other makers' designs), and yet they don't have any problems with that behaviour.

 

[bld522]

The dictionary definition gave some insight as to what I've overlooked before; fakes can never attain this:

pres·tige (pr-stzh, -stj)

Methinks you miss the point. Prestige is the last thing I'd be looking to attain as a result of buying a fake. It's information I'm after, not personal aggrandizement.

 

[Fanglekai]

This is a heated topic but I'm going to post my two cents.

The only "homage"/whatever knife I own is a Sanrenmu 710. I bought it to see if SRM made anything decent. The price was a meager $4 including shipping. Fit and finish was good for $4. The blade took a sharp edge but lost it quickly, as 8cr tends to do in my limited experience with the steel. The blade isn't centered and the lock bar goes all the way over. It sits in a box never getting carried because it's a $4 knife with slightly better than $4 knife quality because the steel does take an edge. Since the lock seems secure enough not to fail I'll give it away at some point to someone who isn't a knife enthusiast so that it'll actually get used for a while and then probably lost with no tears shed. I didn't see the SRM 710 as being a "fake" because it is clearly marked SRM and the materials, tolerances (lol) and fit and finish are nowhere near a $50 knife let alone a $400 knife. Anyone buying a SRM 710 with the thought that he's getting a knife similar to a small Sebenza...for $4...is delusional.

I was MUCH more impressed with an $8 Opinel #8 and $10 Mora allround in carbon. I use those two knives because they're fantastic at even a low price point. So there are options for inexpensive knives that are original designs and not knockoffs or fakes.

Similarly I bought a few Rough Rider slipjoints to check them out, and I was surprised at how decent they were for around $10 or less. I gave away the copperhead and stockman to non-knife enthusiasts and they got used for guttering and other dirty jobs and held up well. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Rough Rider to someone looking for an inexpensive slipjoint with adequate F&F and a steel that will take and hold a serviceable edge. As far as I can tell Rough Rider isn't out stealing designs, and they're putting out a quality product for very little money. Obviously they aren't in the same league as GEC, but I wouldn't mind gifting a RR to non-knife enthusiast friends who will probably abuse it. So I don't really have any problem with Chinese made knives, but I do prefer American made slipjoints because of the higher quality and materials used and it gives me pride of ownership.

I will not buy counterfeit knives that are made to look like the real deal with copied logos, boxes, paperwork, etc. Aside from any moral/ethical issues, the performance, tolerances, etc won't be there. I've seen fake Hinderers and CRKs selling for $150. You could get a Spyderco Gayle Bradley, Military, ZT0350, and many other quality knives with superior materials, F&F, tolerances and performance for less than that! Plus outside of a very, very small % of people, who is going to know what an XM-18 looks like or even care? And out of those people that know what the real deal is, I'd imagine anyone who is into Hinderers or CRKs has a pretty good idea what the fakes look like. So the performance isn't there, no one is going to think it's cool, and there are the moral/ethical issues to consider on top of all that.

So, NO I won't buy a fake or counterfeit "clone" of an expensive knife even with the moral/ethical issues aside. Taking those into consideration too makes for an even stronger argument as to why I won't buy fakes.

That being said, I have no problem buying quality products with original designs, regardless of country of origin. I think Rough Rider is a good example of (to my knowledge) a Chinese knife company putting out good products without blatantly stealing designs. As long as they remain ethical and keep putting out reasonable quality for low prices I'll buy their knives as gifts for friends and recommend them when people ask for a decent, low cost slipjoint.

 

[Ankerson]

I was MUCH more impressed with an $8 Opinel #8 and $10 Mora allround in carbon. I use those two knives because they're fantastic at even a low price point. So there are options for inexpensive knives that are original designs and not knockoffs or fakes.

You know those are the European gas station knives/flea market knives....

The only reason they cost more in the US is because of the shipping etc to the US....

I get a little chuckle every time I see someone talk about them on the forums...

 

[bld522]

Aside from any moral/ethical issues, the performance, tolerances, etc won't be there . . . So the performance isn't there.

Are you stating that from empirical observation and actual use, or are you simply assuming that the performance, tolerances, etc., aren't there?

I've seen fake Hinderers and CRKs selling for $150.

It's one thing to pay $100 for a fake CRK when a real one only costs $400.00. But have you seen what Hinderers are selling for lately? It's quite a stretch to go from $150.00 (or $110 in the case of the Hinderer clone I've been looking at) to $800 or more. This much I can tell you. If Kershaw or ZT or any other US manufacturer was producing or planning to produce a licensed, non-AO, XM-18 clone with a 3" blade and Titanium handle, I wouldn't begin to consider purchasing a Chinese knockoff even if the American product cost two to three times as much. Unfortunately, nothing like that is available or in the works. If anything, the hign-end Chinese knockoff is far closer to the original XM-18 3" than anything the US has or is planning to offer. And darned if it doesn't appear to be pretty well made, too.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

These same people will often buy from Cold Steel, Blackjack, Boker, or any vast number of Custom makers who do the very same things that Sanrenmu / Ganzo / Enlan do (ie: rip off other makers' designs), and yet they don't have any problems with that behaviour.

Just a minor point, to the best of my knowledge Enlan make their own knives. I saw someone comparing the Enlan EL01 to the XM-18 and claiming Enlan copied it, but I couldn't see where they got that idea. Liner lock versus frame lock, spear point versus spanto, etc. The only thing they have in common is a flipper, and by that criteria the Buck Vantage range are "copies" of the Hinderer.

Sanrenmu have released knives under their own brand that they also make for other manufacturers, and there is the notorious 710 which kind of looks like a Sebenza if you squint hard enough.

Ganzo and Navy do make clones of other companies' knives, Ironically I think one of Ganzo's latest efforts is a reproduction of a discontinued Sanrenmu knife. Nonetheless, both make solid knives for the price, and as I've said before, the Navy K631 was my standard EDC before I finally bought an Endura 4. Neither use any badges other than their own.

Inron's MY803 knife was clearly inspired by the XM-18, although I wouldn't call it a copy. The basic profile is similar, but practically every detail is different. Nonetheless, like the Buck Vantage Pro, it's a knife where most of the development money went into the blade, and just for workday chopping that 9Cr13MoV steel holds up very well. There are some torture tests on YouTube that made me squirm to watch, yet the knife just kept going. Of course, if it does break well, I guess I'll have to find another $15 to replace it.

I do own a Hinderer copy, one of the mid $60 ones, and my number one reason for buying it was curiosity. What is it like as a tool? The blade isn't D2, most likely 440C, but that's a steel I'm used to. It does have a titanium frame and is well engineered overall. Considered in isolation, yes, it's a pretty good knife. As I've said, for a $60 knife I'd prefer a Buck Vantage Pro large in S30V or an Endura, but nonetheless.

But then the Inron is the knife most often found in my pocket for the same reason I carry my Vic Champion rather than my Swisschamp. They simply don't matter. If they get broken or lost, oh well. Knives are just tools, not status symbols.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It's one thing to pay $100 for a fake CRK when a real one only costs $400.00. But have you seen what Hinderers are selling for lately? It's quite a stretch to go from $150.00 (or $110 in the case of the Hinderer clone I've been looking at) to $800 or more. This much I can tell you. If Kershaw or ZT or any other US manufacturer was producing or planning to produce a licensed, non-AO, XM-18 clone with a 3" blade and Titanium handle, I wouldn't begin to consider purchasing a Chinese knockoff even if the American product cost two to three times as much. Unfortunately, nothing like that is in the works. If anything, the Chinese knockoff is far closer to the original XM-18 3" than anything the US has to offer, licensed or otherwise.

I don't have a Kevin John, but from what I've heard they are a very good knife. His 3.5" model is beginning to sell for quite a lot of money now, about on par with the ZT 0560. That said, some of the reviews of Elmax steel have been less than complimentary. Based on cutting tests on YouTube, I'd say he (or the company the name represents) is honest about the steels they use.

 

[bld522]

I don't have a Kevin John, but from what I've heard they are a very good knife. His 3.5" model is beginning to sell for quite a lot of money now, about on par with the ZT 0560. That said, some of the reviews of Elmax steel have been less than complimentary. Based on cutting tests on YouTube, I'd say he (or the company the name represents) is honest about the steels they use.

The 3.5 inch XM-18 is too large and heavy for me to EDC. If it weren't, I'd have bought an 0560 a long time ago. The 3" XM-18 is the one I'm after. Unfortunately, neither the Cryo nor the 0566 are suitable alternatives. In fact, the notion of a steel-framed, assisted-opening knife based on a Hinderer XM design is downright laughable to me. The Cryo has been very successful, however, and I don't imagine ZT will have too much trouble moving the 0566 either. But I'll never buy either one. And hell will freeze before I pay $800 for a $385 knife. So the only alternative for me is the KJ knockoff unless I decide to pass on the XM altogether.

 

[Jasonsdman]

Clones have a market because they offer value for their price. A good clone around the price of $100-150 has the equivalent material, fit and finish of something in the $150-250 range of a Spyderco or Zero Tolerance. Yes, you can get a Gayle Bradley, ZT550, or any knife around that price, but an XM-18, Sebenza, or Ti-Lock? I don't think so. The comparatively low price allows certain people to have more choices for their money, and it is their money after all to choose how they want to spend it. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone thought for a moment about where the money is gonna go? Of course! But being human, we can't help that we're selfish and usually try to do what's best for our self. What's best for one person is usually not the same for another. That's why this question is so controversial.

 

[waterbeef]

Get back with me when you guys can come up with your own designs instead of copying outdated aircraft and every other design from other country's.Until then enjoy the video.

We do have original models but that's not the point.
What I wanna say is we have the ability to produce something better (or maybe equal in quality but less in price)than the originals though sometime we just don't do this.

Yes they make cheap target practice.

I 服了 U

 

[Hawk45]

No. If you are buying a knife for looks only, you are buying it for the wrong reason and wasting your money. Once I got past my early 20's and I started making money, I stopped wasting money on crap and started buying quality. Quality doesn't have to be expensive, but precision is.

 

[waterbeef]

I laughed pretty hard at this. "This chinese knockoff of a 50+ year old soviet death-trap is one of the best in the world!" Dream big, bro. :thumbup:

knockoff but improved
One of the best and onec very popular in the international weapon market before 2000,and even exported to the US in 1982

 

[PURPLEDC]

Which makes this whole thing that much more insidious. A majority of the "uneducated" will buy these things thinking they are getting a "deal" on the "real" product. When it fails or doesn't meet expectation, it isn't the counterfeiters that get the blame. The real company gets the smudge on it's record even though the product isn't really theirs. Or when someone tries to turn in a warranty request only to get turned down by the company because the product isn't theirs and then the customer blames them for that also.
Imagine what will happen if the copies become so good that companies can't tell and start warranting product they never made. How long does anyone think they could sustain that before they go out of business.

The whole point of these clones is to steal revenue from the original companies and divert it to mainland china.

I think the more likely scenario if this were to actually happen is the person would get mad at themselves for not educating themselves before making a purchase. And more than likely they will forgive said manufacturer when they find out that the product was truly never the genuine article to begin with. If they still continue to blame someone for something they didnt do its obvious they have other issues that need to be addressed. Me and a few members of my family have accidentally got taken on replica goods. But in hind sight, every single one of those situations was due to me or my family not doing our research before buying. Granted if these products didnt exist we wouldnt have to worry about it. But the ugly truth is that they do exist and people know that counterfeit goods exist. And in knowing that every single consumer has the responsibility to do their research before making a purchase. And if a deal seems too good to be true then it probably is. If you take a gamble though sometimes you lose to the house. Its easy to blame others for our mistakes. But in the case of many counterfeit purchases, both parties are equally to blame. The seller for actually misrepresenting the item and the buyer for not doing his homework.