If a knife is very expensive you will choose to buy fake?

[Ken44]

LOL! To be perfectly honest with you, Ken, I've never bought a counterfeit knife. But it's not because I haven't thought about it nor is it because some personal or moral impediment prevents me from doing so. For me it is first, last, and always about the knife. I just keep finding things to buy that are a lot more interesting than what the counterfeiters have to offer. If that changes, I'll let you know.

This much I will tell you. If I do decide to buy a counterfeit, it won't be for the reasons most people have postulated in this thread. In fact, they wouldn't have a clue to understanding my motives. Best to leave them in the dark. But for those more interested in learning the truth than in defending their stereotypes, I'll ask the following question:

Which is closest to a genuine Hinderer XM-18 3" folder . . . a Kershaw, a ZT, or a KJ knockoff? (PS: Careful now. This is a trick question.)

I better quote you before you keep adding more to this post

The Kershaw/ZT was a collaboration with Rick Hinderer. Meaning he gave it the OK.

The counterfeiters flat out stole the design, which is wrong.
Thats why you wouldn't buy one, along with the fact you have quality knives and don't need to buy cheap counterfeits.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

If you play guitar, would you prefer a cheaper amplifier that did not sound good yet looks like a nice one? That is how many of us feel about the fakes.

 

[PURPLEDC]

NO. Again. The idea is actually funny, although a bit vicious, isn't it ? But the answer is still NO. I don't give a f***k about my safe. My knives stay with me and see everyday use. They may be unexpensive but they serve me well, extremely well. If one fails, I bury it and consider an upgrade, or not... At my level of stubbornry, money is not a concern. My most used and loved knife is a Case Sodbuster... because it serves me so well. If ever it breaks, I could be in for a high end Case. You know, like, this brand has proved its value. I won't move an inch about this. But it's nice to have a talk.

Well here is the thing, your not really the buyer this question is aimed at. If you are a budget minded buyer and arent buying high end, high dollar knives then your right you dont care about a "safe" because you have nothing to protect. Quite simply it just doesnt apply to you.

 

[Beard&Owl]

So you have this massive factory operation going, why would you waste your time and effort on making something that is a knockoff? Seems that you could use all that effort and make something totally original and as a few folks said, probably profit more from it. If you came up with your own designs and used top notch materials, you might even be able to have a name for yourself and possibly a reputation. Making cheap or even high end knockoffs will get you nothing but dirty money.

 

[Leeble611]

forget it rip off another country

 

[bld522]

it is a trick question because all of them are closest depending on the perspective.

I assume you paid attention when I said XM-18 3" right? If you did, here's a clue. No Hinderer XM is made with a steel frame. There's a little more to it than that, but that'll do for starts.

 

[PURPLEDC]

If you play guitar, would you prefer a cheaper amplifier that did not sound good yet looks like a nice one? That is how many of us feel about the fakes.

The question really isnt valid. The reason being is that in the world of guitar sound and the perceived quality of it is very subjective. And with the type of music I play there are amps that cost $700 that sound just as good if not better than another costing $3000. For instance I have a amp that costs $999 brand new and it sound a million times better than the amplifier I had before it that cost $2999. And there a quite a few instances where the designs are borrowed and modified. And some of these amps have a bad reputation. But its based on actually using it. Not rumors. Now another thing is your question again makes a lot of assumptions about the user. Yes original items tend to be of a higher quality in most cases but these products have been getting so good that in some cases the actual maker couldnt tell his work from the fakes. So sometimes I feel quality differences are like placebo effects. I feel some people will find a copy inferior because they WANT to find it inferior. Another way to look at it is a quality to price ratio. Is a real Strider better than a fake one? Possibly but the replica may be a better value because the quality to price ratio is more favorable.

One last point, try to remember that those with the opposing position to replicas and counterfeits are actually those with the least amount of information to form an educated opinion. What I mean by that is numerous people in this thread will say that they have not nor will they every buy a replica or a fake. Some even admit to never handling one. This would mean they have Zero basis in which to form an educated opinion in relation to quality. But they are quick to call a product crap in which they have never been exposed. Which is about as productive as recommending a product that they also have never used which I see just as much of. What Im getting at is that the mere stigma in regard to copy knives is enough for most to have an opinion. Though it is an uneducated opinion. For those who have used countefeits and found them to be inferior this is not about you. It is about people who are all too quick to tell a rocket scientist how to get to the moon when they havent even lit a bottle rocket. I tend to feel that even if I dont like a counterfeit knife for its use of logos, tradmarks and/or patents, I wont dismiss it as an inferior product of inferior materials simply because i dont agree with the makers moral code. If that was the case and we can pass judgment on quality based on the makers morals then all Microtech, brad duncan, strider and cold steel knives are garbage as well. Some of the most respected names in the knife industry have spotte pasts with acts of questionable ethics. Yet most if not all is forgiven in those cases.

 

[1234]

No.


1234,,,

 

[mqqn]

No.

best

mqqn

 

[PURPLEDC]

Actually, it's far simpler than that. No Hinderer XM is made with a steel frame. There's a little more to it than that, but that'll do for starts.

Well this really isnt so simple. Because many of the counterfeits are actually titanium frame locks with a titanium liner. And some of them even have a steel lock bar insert which some would actually call an upgrade. Heck there are even hinderer replicas with what they claim to be S35Vn (wip pics provided) blades, full titanium frame, titanium front scale and hellfire tanto grind. The only knives you mentioned with a steel frame is the kershaw (which would be the cryo and ZT 0566) and a very small amount of the very low cost hinderer replicas. But that was done to offer a much lower cost product as most of the titanium hinderer replicas start at about 10 times the price of the steel knives and have supposedly better blade steels.

 

[herisson]

As any potential buyer I'm highly concerned by the fakes problem. And as I
chose a low budget example, i may have mislead you : the concern is not the money, it is what you do with it. If I dish out the money for a Busse battle mistress, I will do so because I fully intend to use it to the extremes it was designed for. I will not store it and wait for the value to rise (it will nonetheless, believe me...). As I don't need this level of strength, I'm quite happy with unexpensive knives, but they are all true origins, because if not...what is the experience worth (I have the answer : nothing.). I think people like me believing in authenticity have held up and keep on holding up unpretending brands like Opinel, Cognet, Nontron, Mora, or HI (just speaking of my backdoors) who do their best to deliver honest products and stand behind them. Don't push me out : I'm definitely in and I tell you, to wrap it short, it's not the money that counts, it's the value, from the choice of steel to the choices in craftmanship to the customer service. I protect my experience : spending even some minutes with a fool or a foolish knife is a drag. Life is too short for that.

 

[bld522]

. . . many of the counterfeits are actually titanium frame locks with a titanium liner. And some of them even have a steel lock bar insert which some would actually call an upgrade. Heck there are even hinderer replicas with what they claim to be S35Vn (wip pics provided) blades, full titanium frame, titanium front scale and hellfire tanto grind. The only knives you mentioned with a steel frame is the kershaw (which would be the cryo and ZT 0566) and a very small amount of the very low cost hinderer replicas. But that was done to offer a much lower cost product as most of the titanium hinderer replicas start at about 10 times the price of the steel knives and have supposedly better blade steels.

Wow! You took my argument right out of my mouth. Thanks.

 

[PURPLEDC]

So you have this massive factory operation going, why would you waste your time and effort on making something that is a knockoff? Seems that you could use all that effort and make something totally original and as a few folks said, probably profit more from it. If you came up with your own designs and used top notch materials, you might even be able to have a name for yourself and possibly a reputation. Making cheap or even high end knockoffs will get you nothing but dirty money.

There is a good reason they dont do more originals. Think about it. There are thousands of flea markets across the country right now selling chinese orginal designed knives. Some of them made very well. Many not so much. How likely are you to pass up a kershaw, CRKT, or Benchmade for a some chinese knife that you have never seen, never heard of or never used the design. Replicating anothers design is to bridge the gap of familiarity. People know the design is desirable. They know it works. Its proven. And people will choose that familiarity if given the choice. Even if people I were to like the chinese design I would probably still pick the style im most familiar with. Many wont buy a chinese knife period. Much less a design that hasnt been proven. And its all ready been proven that some will NEVER EVER EVER, believe that the chinese really use titanium or good quality steel and/or heat treat. You could have the naysayers hand deliver the materials to the chinese factory and have them watch as they make the knives and they would still say that criss angel came and magically swapped the steel in the heat treat oven.

Wow! You took my argument right out of my mouth. Thanks.

sorry I dont understand. By what you said i thought you werent aware that copies existed of real titanium. I thought you were under the impression that only steel examples existed.

 

[Steel130]

If the knife is expensive I would just wait till I have amassed the funds. Not buy a knock off. Why would I want to buy something I know is inferior.

 

[bobs1415]

Not only NO!, but HELL NO!

 

[PURPLEDC]

If the knife is expensive I would just wait till I have amassed the funds. Not buy a knock off. Why would I want to buy something I know is inferior.

Aside from rumors, heresay, and stigma what makes you know its inferior. And inferiority can be related to price. In other words, the real hinderer may be made from better steel, maybe a different grade of titanium but that doesnt mean the chinese knife is going to fall apart or not perform well. And since price can dictate the quality of materials used and buying something inferior is truly your reason for not buying it then you are saying you wouldnt buy any knife unless it was up to the quality level of a hinderer. Because why would you want to buy something that was inferior product period? Just like when buying groceries you have a weight to dollar ratio. The higher the weight and lower the price the higher the value. If the replica performs well and is a tenth of the price it theoretically could have a higher value than the real hinder for delivering a higher quality to price ratio, or weight to dollars ratio. I think people tend to simplify the choice to a fault. No one is saying that the chinese knife is as good as a real hinderer. Im just saying that some of the new chinese knives arent garbage simpy because we dont agree with how they came to be. And if you look at performance to dollars ratio, technically some of the chinese knives win. And I get just as good of a feeling on value than I do prestige of name brand ownership.

 

[Steel130]

Aside from rumors, heresay, and stigma what makes you know its inferior. And inferiority can be related to price. In other words, the real hinderer may be made from better steel, maybe a different grade of titanium but that doesnt mean the chinese knife is going to fall apart or not perform well. And since price can dictate the quality of materials used and buying something inferior is truly your reason for not buying it then you are saying you wouldnt buy any knife unless it was up to the quality level of a hinderer. Because why would you want to buy something that was inferior product period? Just like when buying groceries you have a weight to dollar ratio. The higher the weight and lower the price the higher the value. If the replica performs well and is a tenth of the price it theoretically could have a higher value than the real hinder for delivering a higher quality to price ratio, or weight to dollars ratio. I think people tend to simplify the choice to a fault. No one is saying that the chinese knife is as good as a real hinderer. Im just saying that some of the new chinese knives arent garbage simpy because we dont agree with how they came to be. And if you look at performance to dollars ratio, technically some of the chinese knives win. And I get just as good of a feeling on value than I do prestige of name brand ownership.

Point taken. However lets take a fake Sebenza for example. Part of the price you pay is for the tolerances and fit and finish. CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Just like a Real Rolex and a fake Rolex will both tell the time, a fake will not have the precision that a real one does. Just like a Honda Civic and a Porsche 911 both drive, one clearly has advantages. So I suppose I should restate that I won't ever touch a fake due to the theft of intellectual property. I couldn't own a fake and feel good about it. Even if it out performed the real thing.

 

[bld522]

sorry I dont understand. By what you said i thought you werent aware that copies existed of real titanium. I thought you were under the impression that only steel examples existed.

The key goes back to the blade length of the XM-18 I'm talking about. That's why I said it was a trick question. Neither Kershaw nor ZT make (or apparently plan to make) a Hinderer-designed knife with specs approaching those of the 3" XM-18. Just to make my point perfectly clear, here are the specs for the 3" XM-18:

Blade Length: 3”
Handle Length: 4.125”
Overall Length: 7”
Blade Thickness: .140"
Handle Material: G10/Titanium
Weight: 3.6oz

Source: http://www.rickhindererknives.com/rick-hinderer-knives/xm-folding-knives/

Unless you're willing to pay an absurd price for an original 3" XM-18, the only place you can get a Hinderer-designed knife with similar specs is from China. American manufacturers provide no alternatives. So you can either pay upwards of $800 for an original 3" XM-18 or $100 for a reasonably well-made knockoff. I, for one, wouldn't blame anyone for choosing the latter over the former.

 

[PURPLEDC]

The key goes back to the blade length of the XM-18 I'm talking about. That's why I said it was a trick question. Neither Kershaw nor ZT make (or apparently plan to make) a Hinderer-designed knife with specs approaching those of the 3" XM-18. Just to make my point perfectly clear, here are the specs for the 3" XM-18:

Blade Length: 3”
Handle Length: 4.125”
Overall Length: 7”
Blade Thickness: .140"
Handle Material: G10/Titanium
Weight: 3.6oz

Source: http://www.rickhindererknives.com/rick-hinderer-knives/xm-folding-knives/

Unless you're willing to pay an absurd price for an original 3" XM-18, the only place you can get a Hinderer-designed knife with similar specs is from China. American manufacturers provide no alternatives. So you can either pay upwards of $800 for an original 3" XM-18 or $100 for a reasonably well-made knockoff. I, for one, wouldn't blame anyone for choosing the latter over the former.

Got you. For me its funny my rational for buying a replica is actually very reason you shouldnt buy a replica. I said I would buy a replica so i wouldnt have to beat on an expensive knife. But the expensive knife is probably the one you would want to put your life into its blade. But I also take into consideration that even the cheapest of cheap crap can usually handle what I throw at it on a day to day basis so the replica knife still performs fine and then some. I guess I just dont discriminate. A good knife is a good knife and I enjoy them all if I like em. Selfish fool I am.

 

[Dirtknap]

The question really isnt valid. The reason being is that in the world of guitar sound and the perceived quality of it is very subjective. And with the type of music I play there are amps that cost $700 that sound just as good if not better than another costing $3000. For instance I have a amp that costs $999 brand new and it sound a million times better than the amplifier I had before it that cost $2999. And there a quite a few instances where the designs are borrowed and modified. And some of these amps have a bad reputation. But its based on actually using it. Not rumors. Now another thing is your question again makes a lot of assumptions about the user. Yes original items tend to be of a higher quality in most cases but these products have been getting so good that in some cases the actual maker couldnt tell his work from the fakes. So sometimes I feel quality differences are like placebo effects. I feel some people will find a copy inferior because they WANT to find it inferior. Another way to look at it is a quality to price ratio. Is a real Strider better than a fake one? Possibly but the replica may be a better value because the quality to price ratio is more favorable.

One last point, try to remember that those with the opposing position to replicas and counterfeits are actually those with the least amount of information to form an educated opinion. What I mean by that is numerous people in this thread will say that they have not nor will they every buy a replica or a fake. Some even admit to never handling one. This would mean they have Zero basis in which to form an educated opinion in relation to quality. But they are quick to call a product crap in which they have never been exposed. Which is about as productive as recommending a product that they also have never used which I see just as much of. What Im getting at is that the mere stigma in regard to copy knives is enough for most to have an opinion. Though it is an uneducated opinion. For those who have used countefeits and found them to be inferior this is not about you. It is about people who are all too quick to tell a rocket scientist how to get to the moon when they havent even lit a bottle rocket. I tend to feel that even if I dont like a counterfeit knife for its use of logos, tradmarks and/or patents, I wont dismiss it as an inferior product of inferior materials simply because i dont agree with the makers moral code. If that was the case and we can pass judgment on quality based on the makers morals then all Microtech, brad duncan, strider and cold steel knives are garbage as well. Some of the most respected names in the knife industry have spotte pasts with acts of questionable ethics. Yet most if not all is forgiven in those cases.

You asked the question then are dismissive of the responses. Rationalizations of a thief.

You are illegally leveraging the designs, reputations and marketing of real knife makers because you lack the design and development experience to successfully compete on an even playing field. Stop your lying and fallacious justifications. Your not fooling anyone here.