If a knife is very expensive you will choose to buy fake?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mmmm, me personally? No, I don't think I'd get much pleasure out of buying a knock-off (and certainly not an actual fake/imitation).

However, I don't really have any moral qualms about someone else doing it -- definitely not as far as knock-offs are concerned (legitimate imitations are a bit iffier, but, still).

Some of y'all get a bit too worked up IMO, I mean it's it's not really hurting anyone. If someone will only buy a cheap knock-off, there's no way they ever would have bought a $300+ knife if it wasn't an option. Now, the sale/manufacture of actual counterfeits which masquerade as the real thing are pretty nefarious, but that's about it.
 
The only point of buying an expensive knife is to have the build quility ..... buying a clone made from inferior steel/materials would defeat the whole purpose.

I collect watches as well and that's a great example of a thriving fake industry. It doesn't offend me that the fakes are out there but I would not buy one because you aren't getting the same thing. You can buy a knockoff that will quit working when you take a dip in the pool or you can buy the real thing and not have to worry about it. The knockoff thing also encourages people to live beyond their means ... which is also not a good thing.
 
To a certain extent, a knife is a knife is a knife. It's pretty darn hard to come up with your own unique design and not copy someone's design in some way or another. Take the drop point, for instance. We owe that to Bob Loveless. But do we refuse to buy drop points that weren't made or licensed by Bob Loveless? And that's leaving aside distinctive trademarked things like the Spyderhole or the Busse talon hole, which many don't even realize are trademarked. For that matter, would you refuse to buy a Cold Steel Leatherneck because it's clearly inspired by the Mark 2? Heck, for that matter, would you refuse to buy the Ka-bar version because Camillus actually produced more Mark 2's than Ka-bar did, even though the knife has since been known as the Ka-bar? So this moral stand we take I think must have limits.

Where I start to have issues is when someone deliberately copies a design whole hog simply because of its popularity, making no changes, and giving no thought of their own to why the design is the way it is, and then markets it specifically to people looking to take advantage of another person's innovation, popularity, and prior marketing. Competition is a good thing to a point, but not when it's deliberate theft of intellectual property. Unfortunately, this sort of thing seems to be very common in China. They offer copies of virtually everything, at a lower price point, and generally at a lower quality as well, which by itself is reason enough to avoid copies. I say this not as a slur, just as an an acknowledgement of the relative importance of this discussion.

It's pretty hard to take the moral high ground on this sort of thing, because virtually everybody has purchased a budget clone of some better known product, often without even knowing it. Have you ever purchased the budget brand of a food item, for instance (Kroger brand, to name one, or Walmart or Target's budget line). Can you honestly say there's nothing in your house that was advertised at the store as "Compare to <insert better known brand name here>"? And do you believe that it's morally corrupt to buy the budget brand fake Oreos, for instance? Where do you draw the line, and why?

I can't say I'd ever purchase one of the OP's blades. By asking such a question, and looking at the other thread of his, it seems pretty clear that his interest is taking advantage of the popularity of others designs, rather than attempting to improve his own knifemaking, develop his own signature style, or advance knifemaking as a whole. That's one of the reasons why I'm avoiding most custom orders these days. I want to make blades that reflect my own burgeoning style, not make copies of other people's designs. For me, I think it's the intent that matters (and the legal status of the original item). If something is open source or whatever, then fair game, and good on anyone that tries to improve, rather than just copy. But otherwise, no, I consider it lazy, corrupt, and not worth my money, whatever the price.
 
It's pretty hard to take the moral high ground on this sort of thing . . .
It sure is. But it's loads of fun to watch the drama unfold when people try to do that. :) Fortunately, we've managed to keep the match away from the kindling so far. I, for one, hope that continues . . .
 
Last edited:
To a certain extent, a knife is a knife is a knife. It's pretty darn hard to come up with your own unique design and not copy someone's design in some way or another. Take the drop point, for instance. We owe that to Bob Loveless. But do we refuse to buy drop points that weren't made or licensed by Bob Loveless? And that's leaving aside distinctive trademarked things like the Spyderhole or the Busse talon hole, which many don't even realize are trademarked. For that matter, would you refuse to buy a Cold Steel Leatherneck because it's clearly inspired by the Mark 2? Heck, for that matter, would you refuse to buy the Ka-bar version because Camillus actually produced more Mark 2's than Ka-bar did, even though the knife has since been known as the Ka-bar? So this moral stand we take I think must have limits.

Where I start to have issues is when someone deliberately copies a design whole hog simply because of its popularity, making no changes, and giving no thought of their own to why the design is the way it is, and then markets it specifically to people looking to take advantage of another person's innovation, popularity, and prior marketing. Competition is a good thing to a point, but not when it's deliberate theft of intellectual property. Unfortunately, this sort of thing seems to be very common in China. They offer copies of virtually everything, at a lower price point, and generally at a lower quality as well, which by itself is reason enough to avoid copies. I say this not as a slur, just as an an acknowledgement of the relative importance of this discussion.

It's pretty hard to take the moral high ground on this sort of thing, because virtually everybody has purchased a budget clone of some better known product, often without even knowing it. Have you ever purchased the budget brand of a food item, for instance (Kroger brand, to name one, or Walmart or Target's budget line). Can you honestly say there's nothing in your house that was advertised at the store as "Compare to <insert better known brand name here>"? And do you believe that it's morally corrupt to buy the budget brand fake Oreos, for instance? Where do you draw the line, and why?

I can't say I'd ever purchase one of the OP's blades. By asking such a question, and looking at the other thread of his, it seems pretty clear that his interest is taking advantage of the popularity of others designs, rather than attempting to improve his own knifemaking, develop his own signature style, or advance knifemaking as a whole. That's one of the reasons why I'm avoiding most custom orders these days. I want to make blades that reflect my own burgeoning style, not make copies of other people's designs. For me, I think it's the intent that matters (and the legal status of the original item). If something is open source or whatever, then fair game, and good on anyone that tries to improve, rather than just copy. But otherwise, no, I consider it lazy, corrupt, and not worth my money, whatever the price.


People will buy what they will buy and for the most part price has more to do with it than anything else and that goes for just about any product category people purchase.

If that wasn't true then there wouldn't be a market for cheaper goods and we all know that there is a huge market for those across the board.

There is really no high ground here because it all just boils down to pricing in the end and in general people will buy goods that are cheap.

Comparing quality and price most people will choose price, believe they got a great deal or got over and then complain about it later....

It's all about the percentages really and it doesn't matter how people try and convince themselves otherwise and that's just keeping it real...... ;)

There are people out there that will drive 20 miles out of their way just to save .10 Cents not thinking about how much money they wasted in gas just to drive there and back, they saved .10 Cents is all that matters to them.......

I have seen a ton of things like that over the years and it's just how some people are and that's just not going to change.
 
Last edited:
People will buy what they will buy and for the most part price has more to do with it than anything else and that goes for just about any product category people purchase.
That's true. More discerning buyers may insist on a measure of quality as well as price, but price is usually the final arbiter. And when you can purchase a reasonably well-made product at a low price, the attraction becomes practically irresistable. Enter the Dragon . . .
 
That's true. More discerning buyers may insist on a measure of quality as well as price, but price is usually the final arbiter. And when you can purchase a reasonably well-made product at a low price, the attraction becomes practically irresistable. Enter the Dragon . . .


Yeah most people really aren't smart shoppers, they really aren't as they only look at price, quality really doesn't matter to them as long as it's cheap...

If people were smarter there wouldn't even be a market for sub standard goods, generic brands, and counterfeit knives.

And we wouldn't have places like wally world and dollar stores.....
 
And we wouldn't have places like wally world and dollar stores.....
Yeah. I sure wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to go away. ;)

Problem is, some of the "substandard goods", generic brands and counterfeit knives are actually pretty well made. And generally speaking, they're getting better as China comes to understand that US consumers won't abide junk products indefinitely.
 
Yeah. I sure wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to go away. ;)

Problem is, some of the "substandard goods", generic brands and counterfeit knives are pretty well made. And generally speaking, they're getting better as China comes to understand that US consumers won't abide junk products indefinitely.

Yes, it seems people want gold for a lead price.....

And that's the reason for a lot of the issues today...

Looking at knives in general:

How many times have we seen a maker come out with a model in a middle of the road stainless only to have someone come in and say something about making it a cheaper non stainless steel?

And it usually doesn't take long either for them to chime in..... That is the same mentality as the people have that will buy those counterfeit knives as the same thoughts drive both. ;)

Doesn't matter how they try and spin it or how many times they try and tell themselves otherwise.

Yes the counterfeit knives are getting better and that is the progression of things.

Like I said before there is no high ground here.
 
Last edited:
Yes the counterfeit knives are getting better and that is the progression of things.
So what does that portend? Seems to me it's saying that if you're a successful knifemaker, you'd better darn well have a backup plan to manufacture knives that can stand up to the products being made my the counterfeiters. Otherwise, like it or not, you're going to lose a huge segment of your market.
 
So what does that portend? Seems to me it's saying that if you're a successful knifemaker, you'd better darn well have a backup plan to manufacture knives that can stand up to the products being made my the counterfeiters. Otherwise, like it or not, you're going to lose a huge segment of your market.


Remember most of the manufacturers have different models in different price ranges to cover a broader market. ;)

They do that for a reason.....
 
Yes the counterfeit knives are getting better and that is the progression of things.

And as they do, and unscrupulous people buy them, even to just try out, it steals revenue from the hobby and the true manufacturers.
With the sheer amount of this crap available coming mostly from chinese vendors with no respect for copyright infringement laws, It can seriously effect businesses, vendors and craftsmen here. Which also will tend to hurt the economy in the long run.
By purchasing these items, not only are people selling themselves short, they are selling out on their fellow American hobbyist, maker and businesses.
 
And as they do, and unscrupulous people buy them, even to just try out, it steals revenue from the hobby and the true manufacturers.
With the sheer amount of this crap available coming mostly from chinese vendors with no respect for copyright infringement laws, It can seriously effect businesses, vendors and craftsmen here. Which also will tend to hurt the economy in the long run.
By purchasing these items, not only are people selling themselves short, they are selling out on their fellow American hobbyist, maker and businesses.


Oh I know, I am not saying that's it's right at all, all I am trying to do is keep it real. :thumbup:

But there really isn't anything that we can do to change the average buyer that will buy those things... ;)

Like I said before a few times, if there wasn't a market for it then there wouldn't be any. :)

It's like when wally world moves into a smaller town and drives all of the other business out then raises their prices through the roof. ;)

Who's fault is that?

Wally worlds fault or the idiots who shopped there long enough so the other businesses went under? ;)

Consumers are their own worst enemy.

Again, the same mentality...
 
Last edited:
A) You don't think Rick gets money for every Cryo sold? So if people buy a fake $40 Hinderer instead of the $40 Cryo then they are IN FACT taking money out of his pocket.

B) How can you call a Hinderer 'more spendy' than a CRK or Strider Knife? The MSRP is almost exactly the same. It's not his fault people the secondary market is so out of whack. Are you going to start crucifying ZT because people are reselling the 0777 for over $1000?


From what ive heard no most makers who get collaborations with production companies dont get a cut for every unit sold. Its simply too hard to keep track of each unit. Many times the maker is payed a lump sum for a design. Its usually a very small amount. The companies usually have no real way of knowing just how popular a knife is going to be and there isnt a whole lot of money involved in making knives to where Rick would get rich off of kershaw selling cryos. Most collaborations are a way of keeping a makers name in the public eye. Its basically advertisement. Im sure there may be instances where a maker gets a cut from limited runs but no one is getting rich on collaborations. Some makers get out of working with production companies because they say it simply isnt worth the hassle for the return of investment.

when he states "the more spendy hinderers" I think he is referencing the customs rick makes. And while the MSRP on hinderer knives are similar to CRK and Strider I dont know of ANY dealers that actually sell their hinderers at fair prices. They are usually always inflated. And its very hard to secure a specimen directly from Rick.
 
From what ive heard no most makers who get collaborations with production companies dont get a cut for every unit sold. Its simply too hard to keep track of each unit. Many times the maker is payed a lump sum for a design. Its usually a very small amount. The companies usually have no real way of knowing just how popular a knife is going to be and there isnt a whole lot of money involved in making knives to where Rick would get rich off of kershaw selling cryos. Most collaborations are a way of keeping a makers name in the public eye. Its basically advertisement. Im sure there may be instances where a maker gets a cut from limited runs but no one is getting rich on collaborations. Some makers get out of working with production companies because they say it simply isnt worth the hassle for the return of investment.


Actually they do depending on the agreement, and no, it's not hard to track how many units are sold, that's basic inventory.....
 
You said it all. We are our worst enemies. Fakes should just be banned and destroyed, period. Quality goods exist out there at very reasonable prices. But the "pretending" factor drives the market crazy. And it's such a good thing, they all say... The LVMH group (only luxury goods) had constantly rising profits over the past twenty years. Splendid ? It drives me nuts...
 
The only point of buying an expensive knife is to have the build quility ..... buying a clone made from inferior steel/materials would defeat the whole purpose.

I collect watches as well and that's a great example of a thriving fake industry. It doesn't offend me that the fakes are out there but I would not buy one because you aren't getting the same thing. You can buy a knockoff that will quit working when you take a dip in the pool or you can buy the real thing and not have to worry about it. The knockoff thing also encourages people to live beyond their means ... which is also not a good thing.


The thing is though that china is getting better. Especially in watches. Look at the tourbillon movement. Ten years ago your were looking at $50,000 for the movement. China can now make very accurate and reliable tourbillon movements and at insanely low prices for how complicated and precise the movement has to be. Yet they still get trashed on for poor manufacturing. Are they as good as the swiss? they are surely getting there. The thing that most watch companies dont tell you is the whole swiss thing is a sham. Many "swiss" movements are assembled by swiss companies using a large amount of chinese parts. But due to how the laws regarding what is and isnt able to be called swiss made a movement can literally be made of 90% chinese parts by volume and still be called swiss because the law states that a swiss watch has to be a certain percentage of swiss make to be called swiss made. But this isnt by volume or number of parts. Its by price. And swiss manufacturing being as expensive as it is you can take a Seagull movement and send it to Switzerland and have them embellish it, put an new balance wheel in it and since that swiss balance wheel is more expensive than the rest of the movement it can be called swiss. Only the finest swiss watches are made entirely in Switzerland. Anyone wearing a $500 movado or a $500 tissot and thinks that watch was made just like a Rolex is in a fantasy land. What im getting at is that many swiss watches are partly made from chinese parts. But because people largely dont know that they have a stigma against chinese watches as being inferior even though they are actually wearing a mostly chinese watch all ready.


Yeah most people really aren't smart shoppers, they really aren't as they only look at price, quality really doesn't matter to them as long as it's cheap...

If people were smarter there wouldn't even be a market for sub standard goods, generic brands, and counterfeit knives.

And we wouldn't have places like wally world and dollar stores.....

But lets look at the flip side of this. Some people who spend large amounts of money arent very smart shoppers either. Lets take a ZT0560 Vs the XM 24. The zt can be had for just over two hundred dollars. The Xm24 atleast twice that but usually three to four times that. But even if its only double, the XM is not handground. Its machine made from the same type of titanium, on the same type of machines with the same amount of handwork going into each of them. The ZT IMHO is even an upgrade because it has a bearing pivot which im very fond of. If the xm didnt have the prestige of the hinderer name I really dont think it would be considered a "better" knife. But its desirable. In part because of a well earned reputation. But also from hype and flavor of the week propaganda. Is it really so much better that it would warrant a price tag double that of a very similar knife made from similar materials and therefore giving you very similar performance? IMHO quality only gets so good before you start paying for something other than it. Some people might want to cry "tolerances" but the human hand isnt a micrometer and you arent going to tell these differences in the product from using it. And therefore the tolerances would get put back into the prestige category. So I might argue that the person that will spend $500 on a hinderer over a $220 ZT is just a poor spender. The only redeeming factor is that the hinderer will retain its value or go up if it isnt used. But whats thats one expensive paperweight.
 
Last edited:
big makers, fuel this fire by moving production too china. This allows the factories too copy other designs. If the big 4 or 5 did not fuel the factories there be less copies.

again, if you chineese steel stay away - period
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top