If you are a Knifemaker....then be a Knifemaker

JMJones said:
Does anyone REALLY think that Stacy or Nick Wheeler or several others, that have provided a tremendous amount of original quality content to the site for years should have to "pay to play" the same as someone who just uses the site to advertise and sell their product?
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Yes and he goes by Spark. His yard/his rules. Other opinions are borderline irrelevant. Not that complicated.
 
Andy has the main and final point. Spark owns Bladefoums. It is a business that he loves ( and sometimes hates). He made the rules when he started it and has changed very few since the beginning.
Some people seem to think that this is a club run by a few volunteers .... far from the truth. It takes a lot of time and money to run it by Spark's, and I truly believe BF has real world value to a knifemaker who wants to sell knives. More than once I have had someone I never met before come to buy a knife and say, "I saw the picture of the XYZ knife you had on Bladeforums, and came by to see if it was still for sale.' (or to buy another knife)
 
AVigil said:
Here is that thread where Kevin without a membership posted a pict and "Wild Rose" jumped all over it http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/961759-A-Blade-Show-sneak-preview

I was lucky enough to see the pict before it was removed. It would be great if makers like Kevin did not have to pay to have him show us his work here simply because it benefits the forum so much to have him participate.
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Yes, where his edited post reads "I have no interest in advertising"....yet his homepage and profile info is still listed and at the time he was a registered user. He wasn't even given a formal warning in his profile.
 
Who benefits by running off Kevin? He was one of the best contributors here. When he left we all lost a lot. So his homepage and profile info is listed. So what?

If the idea is that you're protecting people like me who have paid to be here by running off people like Kevin, I think there is a big misunderstanding about what paying people like me want.

I pay to be here because I sell here. If I didn't sell here I would still pay to support the site. I want to support the site because I have learned a lot here and it's valuable to me. However, I don't learn much here any more, in a large part because people like Kevin and Brian were made to fill unwelcome by staff.

edit: Spark, I would appreciate it if you would change the rule. I will personally pay for whatever membership dues you think you're losing from people like Kevin and Brian etc who don't sell here and want to contribute but run afoul of this "advertising" rule.
 
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Nathan the Machinist said:
Who benefits by running off Kevin? He was one of the best contributors here. When he left we all lost a lot. So his homepage and profile info is listed. So what?

If the idea is that you're protecting people like me who have paid to be here by running off people like Kevin, I think there is a big misunderstanding about what paying people like me want.

I pay to be here because I sell here. If I didn't sell here I would still pay to support the site. I want to support the site because I have learned a lot here and it's valuable to me. However, I don't learn much here any more, in a large part because people like Kevin and Brian were made to fill unwelcome by staff.

edit: Spark, I would appreciate it if you would change the rule.
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Noone "ran him off"...... nor was anyone made to feel unwelcome. They were and are still welcome to post here as long as they follow the same posted rules as everyone else and act in a civil adult manner.....

If anything is likely to "run people off"...it's the constant bickering and hurt feelings by some members, over clearly posted rules everyone agreed to when registering and have been in place a very long time.
 
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Karda said:
Your posting/helping others does nothing to generate money for Spark.
Your paid membership when you wish to advertise does. I wish some of you
makers would come off your high horses and recognize this.
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This is when I called it a wrap folks.
When I received this in an email.
After a fair amount of conversation, it became clear that Karda feels just about everything is advertising.
Helping people adds no value to the forum, according to Karda.

I'm probably advertising now, since my name is above this post.

I just wanted to help, with no personal gain.

Even offered to post under a pseudonym, as others do, as my ego is not tied to any recognition I receive here.

I was told no.
 
Fellhoelter said:
This is when I called it a wrap folks.
When I received this in an email.
After a fair amount of conversation, it became clear that Karda feels just about everything is advertising.
Helping people adds no value to the forum, according to Karda.

I'm probably advertising now, since my name is above this post.

I just wanted to help, with no personal gain.

Even offered to post under a pseudonym, as others do, as my ego is not tied to any recognition I receive here.

I was told no.
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Aside from any notice you may have gotten by the software because of your "warning", I did not contact you.
You did contact me however, to become argumentative and abusive.
 
Handing out free memberships seems like a bad idea, the reason I say that is because there will need to be a cut off point, all the guys that don't make the cut will be ticked off and a new shitstorm will ensue, also what would the criteria be for evaluating who does and does not receive the free membership?

$75 seems like such a trivial amount of money when you consider the amount of content you get here, hell the stuff posted in pirates cove is as good as anything on HBO, I have found myself reading old threads over there for hours ;0) I can't think of a single message board that has such a wide range of entertainment/technical content on the web

Also if you are at a point in your knifemaking career that you feel people need to bow at your feet, you should really get that narcissism checked out by a professional ;0)
 
You're too much man.

I assure you folks, I did indeed receive the above quote in an email from Karda.
Along with many others that led me to the conclusion that I am not welcome.

I am just a freeloader, taking advantage of the forum.

Feel free to go back, read my posts, and judge for yourselves.
 
Fellhoelter said:
You're too much man.

I assure you folks, I did indeed receive the above quote in an email from Karda.
Along with many others that led me to the conclusion that I am not welcome.

I am just a freeloader, taking advantage of the forum.

Feel free to go back, read my posts, and judge for yourselves.
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You concluded inaccurately, even after it was explained to you in detail that you were welcome to post and help out, but that you couldn't advertise.
 
I'm with Nathan on this one, (and it appears Chuck and Brian, too). Karda, I'm not sure how it can say it to you in a way that you'd accept, but there's no doubt that many knifemakers have been squeezed out of here, intentional or not. Many of them are my friends, and without naming names, which I don't think would serve any purpose, you can either take my word for it or continue on under the obvious delusion that nothing has and is happening.
Kevin Cashen's name came up, so we'll run with it. You can't buy a knife from him, 'advertising' or not. His books have been closed for ages. His last effort here was his final effort because he posted an image of impeccable workmanship, and one that spurred a great deal of conversation on technique. He was cited for advertising. I guess...

Another individual I know had a knife thread that he posted in 2005 resurrected by another forum member - merely commenting on how much they liked the knife. The maker responded by saying 'thank you' and was cited for being a maker with no paid membership!! Seriously?

I debated about even bothering posting this. I don't really think it'll serve any purpose. It's pretty apparent no one gives a shit. What the new makers coming on here don't have the benefit of is the countless pros that used to be regulars here. Despite the lopsided views on this topic, there were plenty of ways to prove that the previous arrangements were beneficial and symbiotic to ALL involved, including Spark.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
I'm with Nathan on this one, (and it appears Chuck and Brian, too). Karda, I'm not sure how it can say it to you in a way that you'd accept, but there's no doubt that many knifemakers have been squeezed out of here, intentional or jot. Many of them are my friends, and without naming names, which I don't think would serve any purpose, you can either take my word for it or continue on under the obvious delusion that nothing has and is happening.
Kevin Cashen's name came up, so we'll run with it. You can't buy a knife from him, 'advertising' or not. His books have been closed for ages. His last effort here was his final effort because he posted an image of impeccable workmanship, and one that spurred a great deal of conversation on technique. He was cited for advertising. I guess...

Another individual I know had a knife thread that he posted in 2005 resurrected by another forum member - merely commenting on how much they liked the knife. The maker responded by saying 'thank you' mad was cited for being a maker with no paid membership!! Seriously?

I debated about even bothering posting this. I don't really think it'll serve any purpose. It's pretty apparent no one gives a shit. What the new makers coming on here don't have the benefit of is the countless pros that used to be regulars here. Despite the lopsided views on this topic, there were plenty of ways to prove that the previous arrangements were beneficial and symbiotic to ALL involved, including Spark.
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Mr. Cashen wasn't and still hasn't been "cited" for anything....
If anyone did receive a "warning" notification it was because of absolutely clear and present advertising.
At one point there were at least 100+ registered users helping themselves to free advertisement despite clear rules and even the owner stating that they should not be doing so.

Who is really at fault here? Is it those who ignore the rules....or the one who makes them?...or those obligated to enforce them fairly and evenly?

There was no "previous arrangements" there were people helping themselves to content reserved for paid memberships, which caused problems in and of itself.
 
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My man, in your world, my posting is advertising.
And provides no value.

Jeeze, I can't believe that I came back here, I knew better.

Sorry folks.
 
Karda, I get where you're going - seriously! But at some point shouldn't there be enough introspection to perhaps review and revise the existing positions? Don't you see the whole point that some of us are responding here is because we're convinced there's got to be a happy medium?
 
Matthew Gregory said:
Karda, I get where you're going - seriously! But at some point shouldn't there be enough introspection to perhaps review and revise the existing positions? Don't you see the whole point that some of us are responding here is because we're convinced there's got to be a happy medium?
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There is a happy medium.
Follow the rules as Spark set them and have been in place since paid memberships were put in place.
Do no advertising and you can help new people as much as you want. Advertise yourself in any way and purchase a paid membership.
Simple.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Who benefits by running off Kevin? He was one of the best contributors here. When he left we all lost a lot. So his homepage and profile info is listed. So what?

If the idea is that you're protecting people like me who have paid to be here by running off people like Kevin, I think there is a big misunderstanding about what paying people like me want.

I pay to be here because I sell here. If I didn't sell here I would still pay to support the site. I want to support the site because I have learned a lot here and it's valuable to me. However, I don't learn much here any more, in a large part because people like Kevin and Brian were made to fill unwelcome by staff.

edit: Spark, I would appreciate it if you would change the rule. I will personally pay for whatever membership dues you think you're losing from people like Kevin and Brian etc who don't sell here and want to contribute but run afoul of this "advertising" rule.
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I spoke with Kevin about this at a hammer in this summer. He left for different reasons, not the picture issue. I won't speak for him, but he definitely stated he left for other reasons.
 
I'm happy to pay for a membership, even though I haven't used the For Sale forum yet, as I feel it's my way of giving back. I can't put a price tag on the amount I've learned from this site... but I wouldn't have those same feelings if there weren't people I could learn from sharing what they know.

However, I can understand someone like them, who are almost entirely contributing to the rest of our benefit, not wanting to pay for a membership. I mean heck, I don't think any of my college professors would have been keen on the idea of paying to teach me (otherwise I'd have saved myself about $100k :P). That is how Spark, albeit indirectly, benefits from having people like Kevin or Brian around... by having people like me or the guys with blue names posting their first knives who, with proper guidance (from people who contribute here), may one day soon spend $75 on a membership.

Now, I do believe the rules against "advertising" have some merit. Nothing is more annoying than forums full of posts that are thinly veiled advertisements or signatures containing more information than the average post. The problem is... where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide who gets a "free pass" to post links to their websites without a Knifemaker subscription, and who doesn't?

The problem is... the definition of "advertisement" is about as grey an area as it gets. Who decides what is and what isn't? Technically, posting any completed work, showing a WIP, or even a username can be... and often is... construed as advertising. If you really don't want people to advertise without paying, it may as well be a pay-only forum... but I don't think this place would be around too long if that were the case.

Not that I'm necessarily for adding additional confusions by having more tiers any more than necessary, but perhaps some sort of "Valued (subforum) Contributor" tier would work. Something without direct selling/advertising privileges, but with a little more loose guidelines on posting pictures/websites while in the particular subforum. Set an appropriate cap (or give out one or two a year), take nominations, vote on who receives them.

I suppose we could always pool up and purchase Knifemaker memberships for those people, however that might just make people feel like a charity cases... and probably won't make them any more likely contribute.
 
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