I think a dedicated WIP forum would have to still be under knifemaker's discussion, but let's face it the entire category could use better organization. I'm entirely open for the best way to approach that.
I'm envisioning something along the following -
- General Discussion - Open to everyone
- Metallurgy & Heat Treating - Knifemaker's only for posting new threads, anyone can respond
- Mills, Grinders, Ovens & Anvils or some other name for the tools & equipment questions - Anyone can read, paid membership to post
- WIPs & Tutorials - Everyone can read, Knifemakers only for any new threads or responses
- Novices & Newbies and the people who help them - open to everyone
- The Business of Knifemaking - Knifemakers / Craftsmen & Dealers and above only for reading, posting, responding, etc
I'm not really concerned with separating WIP from Shoptalk because I'd rather people be able to find quality content in certain areas instead of having to try to separate signal from noise or wheat from chaff. It'd be really great if a WIP / Tutorials forum had a half dozen sticky threads for basic tutorials such as "How to make a neck knife" or whatever with links to materials providers... for that matter it'd be a good opportunity for some enterprising Dealer level steel or blank seller to offer a packaged kit for people to get their feet wet.
it isn't letting me post my reply...
Lets see if I can put this in in little pieces...
Kevin,
I'm a long time regular on Shoptalk. I'm spending some time to put this together for you. Please take a moment and read this.
Don't make the mistake that other forums have made by breaking the knifemaker area into a bunch of separate forums in that way. You have a main Shoptalk and two subforums and that is the correct number to have here.
A general discussion area and a metallurgy area and a machinery area and a WIP area etc is not necessary and
breaking it up in that way won't help anyone or anything. You don't have so much traffic that it would benefit from being broken up in those ways. It's not as if people wanting to read about metallurgy don't want to read WIP etc. And, for example, something like a separate metallurgy area won't get any traffic at all and would therefore prevent people from discussing metallurgy at all rather than encourage discussion.
The idea is to maximize traffic and maximize quality of content. It's not a sock drawer, too much ridged attempt to organize it spoils it.
You don't come into the Shoptalk area much so you're not familiar with the place or people. I will try to make this as simple as possible.
First, not everyone agrees with what are the problems and what should be done. But I think we all agree with this fundamental issue:
There was once a vibrant and very interesting mix of knowledgeable people and personalities in Shoptalk that provided both a sense of community between makers and provided a lot of very valuable information. That helped make this the #1 forum of its type in the world. You are still coasting on that heritage. Most of those people are gone now and aren't coming back. They have left for a number of reasons, but two significant reasons you should be concerned with are:
1: there was a lot of drama here with some bad behavior that made a nasty and negative environment. Professional makers don't need the drama and they left. And for the most part the problem people have left and the culture here has changed for the better. We need to keep on that track.
2: The ham handed implementation of your policy against advertizing has inadvertently driven off the very people who were providing the valuable content. This had once been a place where advanced topics were discussed. People like Kevin Cashen have literally changed the industry and people like Brian Fellhoelter are at the forefront of the extremely hot tactical folder movement. They don't take orders, their books are closed they don't need us. We need them. And they were both run off because they didn't want to buy a membership. Why should you care? Because nobody comes here to look at a newbs first knifemaking attempt. 90% of the content on ST today is of the sort that nobody cares about because practically nobody good comes here anymore. You need to ask yourself, what am I doing to attract talent and create an environment of excellence?
Professors do not pay the university to teach. If the skilled makers, who aren't selling here and aren't chatting up the collectors on the handmade forums want to talk about their work, let it be known they are real knifemakers, and talk about their knifemaking business and techniques, what does it hurt you? Don't let it bother you that they might benefit some from some name recognition by posting here and you didn't get paid for that. Be glad they're providing the content that draws paying people like me. As it is now, I have to go to the USN to learn about frame locks and flippers because those guys won't come here. Ask yourself, of this valuable thing that you own, what is actually left of it? Do you know?
They should pay to
sell here. They should pay to show (advertize) their work in
other parts of the forum where the buyers hang out such as the gallery and the Handmade area. But they should be allowed to post most anything they want in Shoptalk (except for flagrant sales type stuff, obviously). And moderators should be encouraged to show a little restraint and a little respect to the prominent makers who are in Shoptalk and not causing problems.
"ShopTalk" is a place for knifemakers to congregate, talk about their work, ask questions and talk shop. <- that right there is Shoptalk. It's a place for announcements that everyone will see such as a new show coming up, a maker that has died etc. It's a place to talk about every aspect of knifemaking such as the business aspect, the shop tools such as motors and mills, metallurgy, design and process. Everything having to do with making knives. By it's nature, it is the place for technical WIPs directed towards makers. The handmade area is the place for less technical WIPS directed towards collectors.
"Around the grinder" is a place to BS. Show pictures of your flower garden, your daughters wedding, a car you're rebuilding. It's the off topic area for makers so we don't clutter up the main area.
The 3rd forum (improperly called hammers and tongs?) should be a place to drain off some of the water from the soup. People talking about knives made from lawn mover blades. If a new maker that is just learning wants to do a WIP of their first build or show pictures of their work bench in their garage or talk about their new harbor freight grinder, this would be a place to put that sort of thing without feeling like they're cluttering up the main shop forum.
The old guard isn't coming back. But there are a few simple things you can do to make ST a more hospitable place for the new guard and encourage excellence. Implement a new policy of encouraging prominent makers to visit us (loosen up the advertizing thing) and encourage vibrant and varied discussion in ShopTalk by not breaking it into many pieces, and drain some of the water into a newbs subforum where new makers can post threads about the contents of their work bench or whatever without feeling like they're cluttering up the main shop forum.
If you're wondering about any new policy, ask yourself: how will this improve the
quality of the discussion? <---
because that is your product
You're able to generate a fair bit of knifemaker's subscribers right now, but that is not sustainable if you don't maintain and improve the quality of the product.
