If you are a Knifemaker....then be a Knifemaker

So, since the move, will any of these problems/suggestions be addressed?
 
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Over moderation
Knife suppliers who need to start they're own forum
its went to hell as expected
On the other side why would anybody want to moderate and get kicked in the balls every time they stop.
 
My apologies.
 
Don Hanson III said:
What a mess!
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Aw c'mon, it's not as bad as it seems. Let's just call it growing pains. We're all big boys here; I remain confident that this stuff can be worked out.

I'm very glad that Stacy moved this thread in its entirety to Tech Support. Now it's being seen by people who might never wander into ST, and more importantly it's getting attention and input from the people (supermods and Spark) who can actually address these issues. That may actually be productive. We all want to improve the situation, yes? :)

"Snipping" non-rule-violating posts and "splitting" threads has been happening far too much lately in more than one subforum, and that really is a cheesy, cowardly move :thumbdn: It's pretty clear when that happens that it's only because someone started taking things personally and removed everything that disagreed with them. That serves only to foster confusion and get people resenting one another.

There's WAY too much personal conflict in this thread, and that's not helpful to anyone...

Brian and Karda, I'm talking to both of you as an uninterested, uninvolved third-party observer. I have no dog in y'all's fight, nor do I want to. You two need to work that out between yourselves, start your own specific thread here in Tech Support to air your grievances and get it resolved, or just plain drop it. You're not helping anything by arguing back-and-forth in this discussion. It's nothing but a distraction.



Kevin R. Cashen said:
But I don’t think anybody can say that if I posted I would never be called an elitist for trying to help people find a better quenchant, a snob for steering a newbie toward a better steel or a jealous hater for suggesting that the laws of physics don’t change because of what somebody’s hero wrote in a magazine.
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I think I was the first one to invoke your name here, Kevin, so I'll take the liberty of responding to your concerns. As you know - and anyone who read my questions and your answers back then will know, too - I respect you and I learned a great deal from you. I really wish you were active here again.

I remember those days of contentiousness and conflicts... and not fondly. The level of personal attacks and outright bullshit bordered on being unconscionable. That it went on so long was embarassing at the very least.

As Karda mentioned, the site-wide and even subforum-specific mods can't possibly police everything that happens. If awful behavior isn't reported, it's not going to be noticed much less dealt with. That ain't "snitching", it's more like a neighborhood watch.

Kevin, I seldom say "never", but I sincerely think you and others would be pleasantly surprised to see that there is a whole lot less of that kind of nonsense in ST now than there was a few years ago. Along with the great makers that unfortunately walked away around that time, even more nitwits and ne'er-do-wells have also just stopped pushing that kinda noise.


I honestly feel that ST overall is much more civil, reasonable, and generally encouraging to newbies now than it was only 3-4 years ago, simply for the lack of drama. If it wasn't, I wouldn't post there either. It seems to me that this is largely due to Stacy coming into his own as a mod, and also due to regulars just plain saying, "wait, that's not right". Perhaps there's some pure luck involved, too... that's OK with me ;)

But there's a definite pattern, and I sincerely think it's moving in the right direction.


Which brings me to perhaps my main point. The past has passed. There's nothin' we can do about that now. I would enjoy nothing more than to see guys like Kevin and Bruce and Don and Brian and Karl post more again. I think Stacy's doing a pretty damn good job, and that's awesome.

But if us newer guys down in the trenches want more leaders and guidance, we're going to have to become those leaders. Just by example.

Not just whine about "how great it used to be" or hold silly grudges from months or years ago, but truly learn from the giants whose shoulders we stand upon and pay that knowledge forward. I really think we've got a solid foundation to build upon in ST.
 
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Sorry man, when lies are printed in public, retractions and apologies should be too.

If the world can read the lie, the world should see the resolution.

Newspapers and magazines print retractions, this should be no different.

We are as close as we are ever likely to get though.

The same folks who read the lies, will also see me calling him on it, and him closing threads and never tackling the issue head on.

There was no need to "report" anything in my instance. Mods, and "Super" Mods were posting in the thread.
They are aware.
All have chosen to let it be.

What I find interesting, is that Supermod can hide behind the mask of anonymity, and say whatever he wants to about real people.
So, clearly, you get a mask as a Supermod, do you get a cape too?

I really love capes.
 
Fellhoelter said:
Sorry man, when lies are printed in public, retractions and apologies should be too.
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Start your own thread about Karda, then. Take it up with his boss.

I'm not taking sides here, I'm just saying that's become a totally different and separate issue. It's between you and him. Focus, man. It really has nothing to do with ShopTalk anymore.
 
I was a member of 3 computer related message boards back in 01 that experienced significant growth, by 03-04 they were mad houses, one message board had a mass pruning, at least 40 members had their accounts deleted and all posts and quotes removed from the site, and like some people here I left all 3 message boards when things got out of control. it could happen here if people don't start talking.

Snipping a single post for someone that is getting out of control and a polite warning is much better then closing the entire thread, its very discouraging to come back the next day with something to say only to find the thread closed.

snipping works but the mods need to be in control of their emotions, For that matter deleting text probably isn't necessary, except in extreme cases.

I tossed the snipping idea out there in hopes of getting people to think. It could get much worse than it is now
 
This post may end up and just another turd circling the bowl, but nevertheless: This whole thread truly saddens me.

I've been a member of BladeForums longer than any other forum that I'm a currently member of. I registered years before getting into knife making, when I was just interested in production knives and such and had absolutely NO CLUE about custom knives or their makers. From there, I stumbled into sub-forums like ShopTalk and learned that guys were making amazing knives out of their backyard tool sheds with little more than files and sandpaper, and thought, HEY! I could do that!

I credit this site, and the makers that used to regularly post here, as 95% of the reason that I can even be qualified to purchase a knifemaker/craftsman membership, much less make a decent knife that somebody would want to own and use.

Brian Fellhoelter is easily in my top five list of makers who have helped and inspired me along the way, including taking the time to personally answer more than a couple emails and PMs. Kevin Cashen is about 99% of the reason I can even heat treat a knife, or know any of the science behind it.

Now, it's obvious that somewhere along the way, there was a breakdown in communication, and perhaps some words were poorly chosen or taken the wrong way. I don't know the whole story, as I have only what little information has been conveyed in this thread. How it's ultimately blown up into this current crap fest isn't so much important, in my opinion, as bringing it to some sort of resolution.
It seems that up until this point MOST of the issues stirred up have been reasonably addressed, EXCEPT for Mr. Fellhoelter being slandered.

I've always thought that the moderators have done a hell of a job moderating bladeforums and its various subforums, keeping cool heads and bring conflict resolution where needed.

I sincerely hope that this particular thread and its issues is not the exception.
 
Two problems here, some moderators need a big dose of humility and time off moderating. They need to take a higher road than quarreling like children.

Second problem, some knifemakers need a big dose of humility and to get back in their shop. They need to realize it's just knives, but being their proffession, quarreling like children does nothing but hurt business. Care about sales and quality, not that some guy on the internet insulted the honor you appear to be now urinating upon.

If you can't make friends, just stop talking.
 
Roger that.
I'm just furious is all.
With no recourse other than internet posting, I see how it can look very childish.

In the real world, this would have just been a quick fight.
Done, over, settled, back to work.
5 minutes out of ones life.

There has to be a better way to handle it, but I am not bright enough to figure it out.

Realize this though, it's always "just" something.

In this instance, it happens to be "just" my livelihood.

To you, it may be "just" knives.

To me, and my family, it's the mortgage, it's milk, bread, and shoes...
 
I know this is nitpicking but both terms have been used...sorry I just cant help myself ;0(

Libel is any Defamation that can be seen, such as a writing, printing, effigy, movie, or statue. Slander is any defamation that is spoken and heard.
 
There is a better way....

I do publically apologize to you Mr. Fellhoelter, personally. I am sorry.
I do publically apologize to you Mr. Cashen, personally. I am sorry
I publically apologize to the forum as a whole. I am sorry.
I publically redact my statements made in anger to you and all those here.
I publically apologize to all who by my actions have hurt or by inaction may have hurt.

Of course, Mr. Fellhoelter and Mr. Cashen are very welcome to continue participating in the forums and to help new knifemakers as they please.
You both are appreciated for your craft and what you bring to it as well as to the forum/s in which you participate.

Let us move forward in better spirits for our sake and for that of the forum.
 
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Thank You. I also accept your apology and offer my hand.
Please feel welcome and enjoy the forums. I hope you will find them/ST a bit nicer.
 
james terrio said:
Aw c'mon, it's not as bad as it seems. Let's just call it growing pains. We're all big boys here; I remain confident that this stuff can be worked out.

I'm very glad that Stacy moved this thread in its entirety to Tech Support. Now it's being seen by people who might never wander into ST, and more importantly it's getting attention and input from the people (supermods and Spark) who can actually address these issues. That may actually be productive. We all want to improve the situation, yes? :)

"Snipping" non-rule-violating posts and "splitting" threads has been happening far too much lately in more than one subforum, and that really is a cheesy, cowardly move :thumbdn: It's pretty clear when that happens that it's only because someone started taking things personally and removed everything that disagreed with them. That serves only to foster confusion and get people resenting one another.

There's WAY too much personal conflict in this thread, and that's not helpful to anyone...

Brian and Karda, I'm talking to both of you as an uninterested, uninvolved third-party observer. I have no dog in y'all's fight, nor do I want to. You two need to work that out between yourselves, start your own specific thread here in Tech Support to air your grievances and get it resolved, or just plain drop it. You're not helping anything by arguing back-and-forth in this discussion. It's nothing but a distraction.





I think I was the first one to invoke your name here, Kevin, so I'll take the liberty of responding to your concerns. As you know - and anyone who read my questions and your answers back then will know, too - I respect you and I learned a great deal from you. I really wish you were active here again.

I remember those days of contentiousness and conflicts... and not fondly. The level of personal attacks and outright bullshit bordered on being unconscionable. That it went on so long was embarassing at the very least.

As Karda mentioned, the site-wide and even subforum-specific mods can't possibly police everything that happens. If awful behavior isn't reported, it's not going to be noticed much less dealt with. That ain't "snitching", it's more like a neighborhood watch.

Kevin, I seldom say "never", but I sincerely think you and others would be pleasantly surprised to see that there is a whole lot less of that kind of nonsense in ST now than there was a few years ago. Along with the great makers that unfortunately walked away around that time, even more nitwits and ne'er-do-wells have also just stopped pushing that kinda noise.


I honestly feel that ST overall is much more civil, reasonable, and generally encouraging to newbies now than it was only 3-4 years ago, simply for the lack of drama. If it wasn't, I wouldn't post there either. It seems to me that this is largely due to Stacy coming into his own as a mod, and also due to regulars just plain saying, "wait, that's not right". Perhaps there's some pure luck involved, too... that's OK with me ;)

But there's a definite pattern, and I sincerely think it's moving in the right direction.


Which brings me to perhaps my main point. The past has passed. There's nothin' we can do about that now. I would enjoy nothing more than to see guys like Kevin and Bruce and Don and Brian and Karl post more again. I think Stacy's doing a pretty damn good job, and that's awesome.

But if us newer guys down in the trenches want more leaders and guidance, we're going to have to become those leaders. Just by example.

Not just whine about "how great it used to be" or hold silly grudges from months or years ago, but truly learn from the giants whose shoulders we stand upon and pay that knowledge forward. I really think we've got a solid foundation to build upon in ST.
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James,
I also want to thank you publically for this post. It is chock full of wisdom. It's my hope and I'm sure we all can do better. Community means we should help each other.
 
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