If You Like Ugly. . . Howz About A Competition Grade Finish???

[Doberman_Dave]

I'm pretty much in agreement with DWRW. I think it's also a safe bet that the satin finishes you're talking about aren't done by hand.

dd

 

[DWRW]

hehe... you ever hand satin finish a blade yourself ? The last thing you could say about hand satin is that it reduces production costs. Time and materials ain't cheap.

Finish on the blade ( as far as what grit ) isnt a huge concern for me , in fact I am pufectly happy with a 220 grit belt finish on my knives , cause they get used and I dont have to look at marks on a hand satin finish.

Yes... I have "hand" finished blades myself.

And as I mentioned, I have also stripped and cleaned up the very rough blades under many Busse, Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard knives.

But, I (We ?????) are not talking about "HAND" finished blades.
I never mentioned anything about "hand" finishing.

I am referring to a preference for a "Satin" finished blade with something comparable to a 220 - 400 grit belt finish

VS.

"UGLY" =

This is NOT a 220 grit belt finish:

"We leave behind all of the peen marks, INFI dimples, and anything else that might be there. Sometimes we double cut them before edging. . .sometimes we don't. There is no set criteria as to how ugly these blades can get. . . .

Handles can be a bit rough as well. . . .fit and finish? . . . Uh, probably not gonna find it here kids.

These are beaters of the first degree. . . You'll never have to worry about marring up the finish. . . because we've already done that for you!"

= aka finish level of blade under CG coating.

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Sure, hand finishing takes longer, but I don't need a hand rubbed finish either.
Although, I have done it on a number of knives. Yes, pretty time consuming.

Belt finished satin is good by me and I do believe a knife company can do a belt satin finish reasonably fast at reasonably little cost to them if done as part of the build process prior to handle install vs. how much time and effort it takes me or anyone else with "Home" grade belt sander, less experience, less practice and on a knife with scales already attached and in the way.

MOST knife companies offer at least a satin finished blade anyway that is a "Belt" grade finish - ..... and regardless of price!




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in fact I am pufectly happy with a 220 grit belt finish on my knives

Great.... That is what I would like too.... But, that isn't what is being described and offered.

Now how do you feel about "UGLY" ?

.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

sorry my bad , somehow I thought " hand satin ". accept my apology if you would.

In the case of machine satin , I would agree the time would be the same.

on what you refer to as the Ugly finish , depending on price point , wouldnt bother me for a user. Of course I prefer my old battle rifles like Mauser's , Enfields and 03's that have many miles on em and been road hard over the years , but they still work just fine.

That's what so good for the consumer right now , if one maker dont make a knife to your liking , check with the next , sooner or later you will find what you like.

i have seen customs costing much more than the Busse's , and with a finish similar to the ugly finish.

 

[Blackwind]

As they saying goes...can't make everyone happy.

Personally I find the "ugly" concept more then simply appealing. I have zero interest in "collecting" Busse knives and buy for use.


This is where my BATAC stands now after arriving to me as a grey coated beauty. As you can tell, its taking a licking in my convex experimenting and its a user. While ugly may not be for everyone, I'd be more then happy to buy ugly. Especially at a reduced cost in comparison to finished knives.

 

[pitdog]

But do we know how much cheaper ?

 

[mikeymoto]

No. . . . .

 

[Last Visible Canary]

its worth noting that these blade should probably come with a disclaimer on them of "no returns based on fit and finish - ONLY failure or breakage", since I'm sure many people will get something that is worse then they expect.

 

[DWRW]

sorry my bad , somehow I thought " hand satin ". accept my apology if you would.

In the case of machine satin , I would agree the time would be the same.

We are good John. Thanks. I assumed it was just a misunderstanding.

 

[buckman#10]

its worth noting that these blade should probably come with a disclaimer on them of "no returns based on fit and finish - ONLY failure or breakage", since I'm sure many people will get something that is worse then they expect.

yes and also have them marked so people know they arent the regular cg that have been stripped

 

[papathud]

I remember when Fit and finish were not real important in a Busse knife.

That was not why people bought them back then.

They bought a knife that would take what ever the world threw at it, like the one that got Run Over by a Tracked Armored some thing or another and all that got messed up was the sheath.

Yup, I also just happen to have a few Plastic Busse knives that If I were to try to sell would bring $200.00+ pretty easy, maybe $300.00 seeing how long they have been out of production and how folks like to collect all things Busse.

Jerry used to make Strong knives that would hold an edge for a long, long time.

Now it seems like he has Added Pretty and even "Cute" to that.

 

[DWRW]

As they saying goes...can't make everyone happy.

Personally I find the "ugly" concept more then simply appealing. I have zero interest in "collecting" Busse knifes and buy for use. ...........
...........While ugly may not be for everyone, I'd be more then happy to buy ugly. Especially at a reduced cost in comparison to finished knives.

I can appreciate your perspective (to a point) - if I "assume" (as you are) that there will be a worthy price reduction. In which case, I find the concept somewhat worthy - although still a little questionable IMO.

*** But, "WILL" there be a price reduction?

There has not been a mention of a price reduction.
And I honestly DOUBT there will be a price reduction.
We are basically just talking about Combat Grade blades now NOT being coated.

"IF" these "Competition Grade" knives were to be priced and reasonably reduced prices, SURE, I will be interested.

However, NOW, some effort is being put into a quality edge grind (at least for "Competition Grade" .... maybe ).
- So, probably a wash.

It is possible Jerry intended to charge more for providing a good cutting edge????

..... Although, I feel, by definition, a knife is supposed to be a "sharp" tool used for cutting and I feel a reputable knife maker should take pride in providing quality, sharp, suitable edges on ALL knives as a standard - not just - "Special edition knives that actually cut better than our others"

My issue honestly isn't with the pricing differences between Combat Grade and Competition Grade. From a knife-maker perspective, there isn't much savings by just not spray-coating the blades.

* However, I do have an issue with availibility and pricing for satin blades (and that not all blades come with ideal edges for cutting).

I would MUCH prefer a basic machine satin finish and I am convinced that a knife-maker can machine satin finish to a basic industry level of satin for very little production cost and time.

Knowing that satin blades are provided so commonly and at so much cheaper prices, I have to find it a little dissappointing that they wouldn't offer satin finished blade for only $10 - $20 more than Combat Grade.

Some people like coated blades. I don't, but to each his own. It sells. So, if I were making and selling Busse knives, I would continue with the coated blade line because some people like it. (* Although, I have to wonder how many people buy CG so they can get Busse steel and not pay LE prices...?????)


Pretty much EVERY other knife and every other knife company with VERY few exceptions at ANY price offers (belt finished) satin blades.

To offer "UGLY" blades at this price point based on what little it should cost them for a basic (belt finished) satin finish ..... I don't get it...?????

If all other factors are the same, steel quality and such - would you really "CHOOSE" UGLY over a decent satin finish?

Would you pay $10 - $20 more for a decent satin finish over UGLY?

If every other knife-maker at pretty much any price point down to sub $20 - $30 total knife prices can offer satin finished blades, do you really believe it should cost $50 - $200 more for a machine satin finish?


.

 

[papathud]

Interesting,

I thought it was about what the Market would bear not what it cost to produce.

What you like, Pay what it costs.

What you do not like, do not buy.

Seems pretty simple to me.

By all means get them cheaper if you can.

Part of the whole No Regrets thing.

 

[DWRW]

I remember when Fit and finish were not real important in a Busse knife.

That was not why people bought them back then.

If you are willing to pay these prices and feel quality of workmanship and fit and finish don't mean anything to you, then to each his own.

Personally, I am all for a tough blade, but at these prices, I have a little bit higher expectations than just a tough hunk of steel.
I personally feel I should be able to get incredibly tough AND decent fit and finish AND a sharp edge at these prices.... probably a VERY nice sheath too while I am at it, but that's probably just me being greedy.


...... I admit I would be very fine if I could buy anything I want at much lower than asking prices.

Yup, I also just happen to have a few Plastic Busse knives that If I were to try to sell would bring $200.00+ pretty easy, maybe $300.00 seeing how long they have been out of production and how folks like to collect all things Busse.

Now it seems like he has Added Pretty and even "Cute" to that.

Again, to each his own. If anybody wants to pay for or own a plastic knife worth $200 - $300 ..... it is their money.

Now it seems like he has Added Pretty and even "Cute" to that.

I don't have much interest in "Cute", but I don't have any problems with hoping or even expecting to get a nicely finished handle material or a nice basic satin blade finish at these prices.

I am fine with black or tan micarta and a simple satin finish. I just prefer a decent level of quality in the fit and finish.



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Interesting,

I thought it was about what the Market would bear not what it cost to produce.

What you like, Pay what it costs.

What you do not like, do not buy.

Seems pretty simple to me.

By all means get them cheaper if you can.

Part of the whole No Regrets thing.

.... Sounds more like a comment I would expect to hear from someone who "invests" in knives for resale purposes than from a person who would hope to buy knives to use.... ????

However, I still can't argue too much with this statement.

Ultimately, I do believe it is about supply and demand.

That is the bottom line. We, as consumers, are subject to market trends. Regardless of reason.

High demand and high secondary prices are great for Busse.

*** Congratulations are due.

Ultimately, the goal of any business should be to drive up demand, drive up prices, drive up profits and drive up net earnings.

It would appear, Busse is doing well at this.


Far be it for me to understand why anyone would pay $200 - $300 for a piece of sharpened plastic because the name Busse is stamped on it.....

If this is were it is going..... ya'll have fun.


.................


Anyone want to buy a piece of toast that sort of looks like jesus for $15,000?


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My only point and hope for posting is that as an avid and interested consumer of the Busse family of knives, I am pointing out what I personally would like and hope to see and/or what I feel could be improved.

Some businesses have an interest in and value what their costumers think and/or want.

However, often when the demand is high and the supply is low.... prices just go up......

Take what you can get and get what you can take.

So be it.....


Quality doesn't always have to stay - Especially if demand stays high and when so many people openly state they don't care about fit and finish and/or actually "support" the lack of..... Whatever.....

Again, to each his own.

.

 

[Blackwind]

I can appreciate your perspective (to a point) - if I "assume" (as you are) that there will be a worthy price reduction. In which case, I find the concept somewhat worthy - although still a little questionable IMO.

*** But, "WILL" there be a price reduction?

.

The following statement in Mr. Busse's original post leads me to believe so...

If we priced these near the regular combat grade price point, would you be interested in buying one?

Near meaning less.....why on earth would anyone pay more? I call it a reasonable assumption. If that assumption should prove correct then I'm interested.....

However, NOW, some effort is being put into a quality edge grind (at least for "Competition Grade" .... maybe ).
- So, probably a wash.

Possible, that remains to be seen or declared. I have the impression Jerry is seeking our opinions...they are free after all. I hate to say it but you almost make it sound as though they weren't putting effort into a good edge before...and now they are thinking about. What ever their production process...the coating apparently makes applying this type of edge difficult.

I would MUCH prefer a basic machine satin finish and I am convinced that a knife-maker can machine satin finish to a basic industry level of satin for very little production cost and time.

To each his own...I don't care for satin finishes.

If all other factors are the same, steel quality and such - would you really "CHOOSE" UGLY over a decent satin finish?

Yes, I would...I'm going to beat the holy snot out of it anyway...who needs satin?


From the original messages the key points that struck me were...

Competition Grade Finish

• Ugly
  
• Zero convex bevel along the edge that screams!!!!
  
• Performance. . . it's all about the edge. . . .
  
• Possible double cut
  
• Handles can be a bit rough as well. . . .(I can finish to my liking)
  
• beaters of the first degree. .

All in all think its the recipe for a good line of knives I'd be highly interested in. Satin be damned.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Would you pay $10 - $20 more for a decent satin finish over UGLY?

not if I'm going to make it look ugly the second I use it, and spend 2 hours grinding the edge down to a decent 21 degree's per side.

I personally feel I should be able to get incredibly tough AND decent fit and finish AND a sharp edge at these prices.... probably a VERY nice sheath too while I am at it, but that's probably just me being greedy.

and you will, with the combat grade or LE editions. busse had constant customer complaints about the sheaths offered, so they stopped offering them and concentrated on making knives only.

Again, to each his own. If anybody wants to pay for or own a plastic knife worth $200 - $300 ..... it is their money.

-snip-

Far be it for me to understand why anyone would pay $200 - $300 for a piece of sharpened plastic because the name Busse is stamped on it.....

mp45 was a composite material that had similar requirements to that of infi, but in a non metal blade. it was able to take lateral stresses, shock, and tip stresses that were well beyond any other "plastic" or non metal knife to date. mp45 is no longer produced, and is a rare material, on top of the stealth hawk being a purpose specific blade. it is far from being just a "piece of sharpened plastic".

.... Sounds more like a comment I would expect to hear from someone who "invests" in knives for resale purposes than from a person who would hope to buy knives to use.... ????

of all the people you could have said that too, papathud is probably the least applicable. he's given away more infi then most of us have seen, and I've seen a fair share come and go through my hands.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

Near meaning less.....why on earth would anyone pay more?

because you get a considerably thinner edge then you will find on any busse knife outside of the custom shop that has the full busse combat warranty backing it. If I thin a busse knife down to what I consider sharp and it gets destroyed all the hell at the edge - I question whether or not I should send it in under the busse combat warranty. not so here.

 

[papathud]

LOL,

The Plastic Busse knife does not even have the Busse name on it, looks like a piece of junk, but will do things other plastic pieces of junk will not.

Look at the sales forum or ebay under "papathud" to see my Busse knife sales.

I do not sell many, I might some day sell though, most of mine are worth a bit more than I paid for them.

I have given away more than a few, Busse knives are one of my Most favorite gifts, and the people I give them to seem quite Pleased.

Fit and Finish currently seems important to the Factory, read my earlier post, I said that I remember a time, it was back in about 2000 and 2001 that fit and finish seemed not important, the first ZTs were pretty nasty with many scratchs and such fresh from the factory, this cleared up about half way through production when Jerry bought some equipment to make the finishing process easier.

 

[papathud]

I prefer my Busse knives coated for the most part.

My Wife like the "Shiny ones"(Satin)

It is important to me as to how the handle fits and how it Feels in my hand and how it performs.

If price is lower, I am likely to get one, if I other wise like the knife.

I Dremel tool Busse knives to suit what I want them to do and how I want them to fit my hand.

This Finish listed in this post will prolly appeal to the people that spend the time and effort to remove the coating at home.

 

[DWRW]

Resinguy mentioned a blank blade option. Maybe some others that I missed.
But, somebody else mentioned it on the Scrap Yard forum.


This "BLANK" blade / "KIT" concept is potentially a very appealing idea to me.....


*** "IF" *** it meant saving MUCH more money, I would be very interested in buying partially finished "BLANK" blades.

It would also be nice/interesting if they would also provide the partially finished scales and pins seperately as an option. Or I could make my own scales.

AND provide a re-usable kit with a die/punch or similar that could be put in a vice to flair the tube rivets (???). - And be able to buy rivets...
The proper die/punch rig and compatible rivets would be important to me.

With the proper kit, it seems very conceivable to me that installing the handles would be WAY easier than trying to "fix" or clean up blades around the handles.


I found a thread on Busse-Bladeforums: Related to Busse Handles, rivets, and similar

The thread is more about other changes related to handles by Randucci, but it shows the die/punches used to change the rivets.

Randucci used some titanium tubing he found at a hobby store for the replacement rivets. This might be fine, but is it strong enough? Are other metals stronger or better options for what reasons?

Also, the rivets used on Busse micarta handles appear to be the same type and size rivets as used on Res-C, so the same kit concept with detached Res-C type handles could also work. Of course, certain tangs are shaped for micarta (or G10 ) and certain tangs are shaped for Res-C.


Without the handles installed, it would be much easier to finish the blades.


** THIS concept (at the right price) would be more interesting to me.


DON'T coat my blades, ....
save me much more money, .......
provide some of the basics like a rivet die/punch kit and rivets,....
provide options for partially finished / preshaped micarta, G10 and Res-C options,.....

and fine, I will happily finish them myself.

It will be MUCH easier for me to finish the blades if the handles are not attached! And assuming there is a reasonable solution for me to attach the handles AND assuming the price is reasonable - then HECK yeah.

I would be very happy to get Busse grade steel, save some money and finish the blades and handles to my own personal preference.

I can even buff my micarta handles BEFORE attaching so they don't have fuzzies!


I think the kit options might increase picture posting as well.


.... Now let's talk prices!!!!

.

 

[Cobalt]

I see both sides of this argument...

My opinion is this:

I absolutely dislike coatings, so a rough uncoated blade brings me one step closer to satin finishing the knife myself, which I have done many times in the past. If Busse takes say 10% off the price, I am good with that, as he just saved me about 1 hour of work to remove the coating.

Every busse I buy, with the exception of some LE's, has the potential of being used hard when I get the itch...

I think that Busse is producing the best Satin and DC finishes ever and the prices have not really gone up from what they were 8 years ago. I payed $350 for combat grade coated SHBM's in 98 and 99, yet the CGFBM coated was $387 nearly 9 years later. Take another $30-$40 off that for uncoated and I'm all over that.