if youre stuck without a fixed blade will your folder hold up .

Status
Not open for further replies.
What would Otzi do?


Baton a folder...tap tap tap.
Not WHACK WHACK WHACK.
If you have to whack, you biting off more than you can chew.

Now in a real survival situation.....
You'd have to know your (and your tools) limitations.

So gutsy, when are you going to test your knife and tell us about it?
 
Learn to use the folder to it's best advantage, without breaking it. There are other methods that can be used for the heavy wood working chores that don't even include your knife.
 
Sorry gang,

If I am betting my life on a blade it had better work under the worst case scenarios period. If I need to pry it will pry. If I need it to pry a truck door open it will. If I need it to quarter an elk it will. A pocket knife is just that a light use tool for cutting or self defense not for hard core bushwork.

I will not ever baby my tools for the sake of protecting it due to inferior construction. My blades have warranties I trust if your maker does not that should tell you something.

Tap tap before pound pound I dont think so.

Jesus, where does this BS stop? Next some will be telling me I should fell logs with a SAK LMAO.:D

Send me your $300 folders I will show you their shortcommings on video and send you back the pieces.

All that said, again I will admit having a decent folder is better than nothing (hell I EDC a $200+ SD folding blade but it aint no survival knife) and can do some light bush work but I would NEVER trust my life with it under hard bush use.

Thanks Thomas haha stir the pot some more.;)

SKam
 
OK re-read the title of the thread.

Got it? Your SPB isn't with you.

Your folder is.

Tap tap on the folder.

That is if you had to baton with it in the first place. Again, because your SPB isn't with you.

I know it is difficult for you to handle the mere thought of being without your 6' log splittin', truck door pryin', elk quarterin', warrentied, $300 sharpened wonder mystery knife...

Now maybe gutsy just wants to melt some snow (with his coffee can stick stove and Ti cup) because he's thirsty and some hot coffee would do him good.
I say this because I read the opening post. He asked about cutting wood and building a fire without his fixed blade and whether his folder would hold up.
No tree felling.
No end of the world survival scenerio.
Not even a 'real life survival situation'
Just a simple question with one premise.
(that's the part about no SPB...the horror the horror...remember?)

Tap tap before pound pound I dont think so.

Jesus, where does this BS stop? Next some will be telling me I should fell logs with a SAK LMAO.

Send me your $300 folders I will show you their shortcommings on video and send you back the pieces.

A) Tap tap the folder so you don't break it.
B) Just because you may not be religious, it doesn't give you license to offend those who are.
C) Any nit wit (or both nit & wit) can break a knife...any knife. The smarts show up when you can make do with what you have.

Sorry is right.
:D
 
Appologies for the religion comment sincerely it was out of line:foot: .

The point I at least am trying to make is maybe if the orginal poster was educated to the fact he should have a larger quality blade (especially in known riskier situations) he would not have to worry about his folders performance or question its reliability.

Eb, you want to go into the bush for a trip with only a folder go ahead "I " know you cant count on said folder for anything but light chores as I have seen the results first hand in other peoples experiences.

If you read my post I did say a folder is better than nothing and can be used for light duties its just not near ideal or advisable.

Stop barking now.

Skam
 
Apology accepted.

Your point about the original poster being "educated to the fact he should have a larger quality blade" is made moot by his opening comment about not having 'your trusty fixed blade'.
He has one and knows he should, but for the sake of this thread it isn't there. Swallowed by a river, stolen by Murphy, what ever.

The original poster was thinking beyond your mantra.

I don't plan on going into 'the bush' with just a folder and I don't think anyone frequenting this forum would either.

But the question was asked.

We all know that a folder should would limit one to light chores. Hence tap, tap. Make sense?
We all know that a folder is less than ideal.
No one here is recommending a folder as a do all survival knife.

I did read your post (all of them) and you did say that a folder is better than nothing. But then again wasn't that the point of the thread?

A wise fellow said something about if the only tool you have is a hammer....

Stop barking now.
I smell bait.
:D
 
skammer said:
The point I at least am trying to make is maybe if the orginal poster was educated to the fact he should have a larger quality blade (especially in known riskier situations) he would not have to worry about his folders performance or question its reliability.

Eb, you want to go into the bush for a trip with only a folder go ahead "I " know you cant count on said folder for anything but light chores as I have seen the results first hand in other peoples experiences.

If you read my post I did say a folder is better than nothing and can be used for light duties its just not near ideal or advisable.

Stop barking now.

Skam

Maybe if others were "educated", as you said, how to properly use a knife, there would be no worry of breaking it. Survival does not mean run screaming and hacking and chopping for kicks. Take a deep breath and think about what you need to do.
Tons of people go into the bush, and unwittingly into survival situations with only a folder, and not even a strong one. They survive or they don't, but it's not because of the type of knife they have. It is training, skills, practice, etc., that count.

I am a cop, and I know there are more cops here on this forum, and I can tell you that I have been to MANY collisions and have NEVER seen a situation where a fixed blade could have possibly made any difference. I assume others in the business would agree. If you need to get in a car, or out, BREAK THE WINDOW, OPEN THE WINDOW, heck open the door. How is a knife going to pry a car door open??? Do you have any idea what the !#@#!! you are talking about?

Tap tap, is anyone home? Oh, sorry I mean WHACK WHACK!!

Any knob can break a knife. It is the skilled outdoorsman who can use a knife without damaging it, and survive just fine.

And who are you telling to stop barking? Should be yourself, or maybe me, but not Ebb. His posts are intelligent and thought out, with experience to back it up.

Sheesh.
 
A tool is exactly that a tool no one said anything about babying a knife and I am sick to death of hearing the term "Hard Core" almost synonymous with "no brain" sometimes. Using a tool wisely is not babying it and "hard core" use is nothing but an excuse used for people who like to muscle things rather then finess them with SKILL!!! Sometimes I thing some people could stand to watch an old episode of Lassy the one where the boy survived in the woods with his knife but never had to Hard Core split a logg open or Hard Core hack through a car.

You can tell the knowledge of a knife user by the size of his shavings, by the knife they choose and when they choose to use it. Like I said before a well working brain is a necessity to survive a knife is a bonus use it wisely.

Signs your child is growing up to be a "Hard Core" person

1. Their toys are all broken i.e. takes dessert G.I. Joe n the tub instead of scube Joe
2. Every radio in the house has a broken ariel from being slammed down instead of slowly collapsed
3. Everything they touch seems to get broken
4. When something breaks they were always using it properly at least they say so.
5. They always leave empty milk cartons in the fridge, if it was a hard core milk carton it would always refill itself right
6. They tear their close putting them on, got to test them incase they decide to rip them while playing
7. FINALLY in their teen years drives the car without changing the oil a "hard core" engine wouldn't need oil.

A.
 
Canranger, Ebb, I have heard that in most situations, the problems lie with the fool rather than the tool.

Jason
 
skammer said:
where does this BS stop?
SKam

I guess you could say it stops here, unfortunately it seems its here to stay and not just dropping by for an occassional visit.

Okay Skam, its YOUR forum. I'll watch from the sidelines but I won't darken these halls of "academe" any further.

I don't believe in controversy for controversy's sake.

Adios.
 
shane justice said:
Skammer has it right....



I don't like this kind of reference....there are those who would omitthe fixed blade part...and just say those who carry a knife are crazy...

Making this statement either stems from ignorance...or is meant to gain attention...

Carry a folder...or a fixed...but for damn sakes carry a knife...

Shane

Think he is just suggesting that you will be ridiculed or subject to police interest in many places if you are observed carrying a fixed blade knife on your person. I know I was once at a state park. Was walking a trail with my family and some cretin following behind us was making fun of my CS SRK on my belt. Sure...it was unlikely I'd ever need the knife, but what was his problem?

Anyway, I agree. Just have a decent knife on you. If you can wear a fixed blade, all the better.

Jeff
 
Someone posted this in another thread and it seems relevent:
elsewhere said:
... most average quality gear will work in a survival situation. It may not be optimum, but it will work just fine. Getting hung up on absolutely having to have the best or perfect tool is nothing but an academic exercise...If you have the money, buy the best gear you can. If you are on a budget, don't worry; you can get something that works well.

...MOST REASONABLE SELECTIONS OF TOOLS WILL WORK AND YOU WILL LIVE...
Someone also said, and I can't find the thread right now, "the newest, fanciest, most specialized, pricey item is best used to compensate for someone's lack of skill"...err something like that. I know in the surgical arena, we often comment that the laparoscopic robot is best used by the subspecialty "surgeons" that did NOT complete 5 years of general surgery. Because, the robot compensates for their lack of skill in laparoscopy!
 
Ebbtide said:
We all know that a folder should would limit one to light chores.

There are lots of folders that are not designed with light uses in mind, just like there are fixed blades that are so limited. You don't put a 1/4" blade on a folder with huge metal handles, promote extreme lock strengths of 1000 + in.lbs and then argue the design implies it should be restricted to "tap" impacts. This would be the same as arguing that clothes which are promoted as waterproof and -60C should never exceed misty weather.

Jeff Clark said:
In general you can just break branches and gather fallen wood for a fire.

It only takes less than a day with significant rain for everything to become soaked, I have seen just a few hours of rain cause all the woods to be soaked through for a fraction of an inch, this makes it fairly difficult to build a fire with a small knife because you can't easily break open stumps for pitchwood tinder or use deadfall to keep the fire going. You are basically limited to carving the wet wood off the outside.

On the local woods, you can just build a really big fire using boughs with really resinous needles which will burn decent even when wet (shake them off) and if you throw on enough of them you will generate enough heat to burn wet woods. You need specific trees to so this though and you will burn through a massive amount of wood to keep the fire going. A full arm load of boughs only lasts minutes so you basically have to gathering them non stop.

When we burn areas we have cut in the winter, we clear out the boughs usually and 2-3 people can load a fire as fast as you can collect them (they are already cut) and throw them on a fire and if you stop to just drink a coke or have a smoke they will burn right down to ash before you are finished. Makes a nice signal fire though, you can produce a 10-20 foot flame in minutes and walls of smoke.

Anyway, what you have to do with wet woods is get it next to the fire as quickly as possible so it can thaw and dry, use it to build a reflecter is ideal, just replace the wood in between the poles it as it dries, if it is raining then build a bough break to keep the rain off it in the stack, do this even if it isn't raining in case the weather turns over night (assuming you are staying of course).

skammer said:
YOu can break nearly any folder in 5 seconds flat by embedding its tip and prying on it, the S2K is not immune to this any more than other folders.

There are some really thick bladed folders on the market now, 5/32" in 3-4" is fairly difficult to break with just wrist strain, when you hit 3/16", unless there is a fine distal taper a 200 lbs man can easily walk on the knife, some of the heavier tactical folders are even thicker still. The problem usually is that the pivot or lock strength doesn't match the blade profile.

With the thin bladed folders and fixed blades you can't load them much laterally, at about 1/8" with a full flat grind any normal man should be able to crack them by just wrist strain, however if you load them by twisting they can take *much* heavier forces because the force gets applied to a much larger cross section of the blade.

Even with a very slim blade like the Kershaw Vapor, I can jam that in a piece of hardwood and the blade will take full force torques (the lock can release - so take care). The pivot is also much stronger under rotational loads as well. I am going to build some wooden jigs to check how far you can push this aspect for heavier wood work.

The jigs are just two pieces of hardwood lashed together which slip down over the handle. Using twist methods vs straight lateral prying you can vastly reduce blade thickness needed to prevent breakage and still allow the same work, it might even be more efficient for the user because you can use really large jigs to create large torques with little force applied.

Of course you need handles which are fairly flat and wide, it would be difficult to do this on the roundish handle on the Mora 2000, though you could jig the blade on longer knives. If you have decent hardwood in the area you can fire harden nice tools once you have the initial fire going which make keeping it going much easier. You can make a decent wood prybar out of a piece of fire hardened oak, I am still looking for some ironwoods to experiment with, a friend promised me a bundle a year or so back.

canranger said:
wanna split a piece of wood for dry tinder use a rock.

I have seen local wood (not even large, just 8-12") take two wedges and a GB splitting maul and not crack. Some woods are fairly difficult to split, and yes the same wood can be batoned through readily.

ohoisin said:
actually in a survival situation I could care less about the warranty, or the manufacturer ...

You don't want a knife with a solid warrenty in a survival situation because you can get it replaced. You want it from a company which is open about the abilities because it is less likely it isn't going to have them.

-Cliff
 
LSkylizard said:
Someone posted this in another thread and it seems relevent

The discussion is on suitability of design not quality of design, as in sneakers vs rubber boots not different brands of hiking boots. Discussions of quality for survival knives is fairly interesting though because it generally only goes for a half a dozen posts before someone interjects with "anything will do".

This however doesn't tend to happen with other items, even ones specific to survival. Ritter has a number of pages on kit evaluations where he ranks all the items, yet all of them can function to some degree or another so why does he bother since "anything will do" thus just buy any kit at random.

-Cliff
 
Jim Craig said:
They survive or they don't, but it's not because of the type of knife they have. It is training, skills, practice, etc., that count.

I am a cop, and I know there are more cops here on this forum, and I can tell you that I have been to MANY collisions and have NEVER seen a situation where a fixed blade could have possibly made any difference. I assume others in the business would agree. If you need to get in a car, or out, BREAK THE WINDOW, OPEN THE WINDOW, heck open the door. How is a knife going to pry a car door open??? Do you have any idea what the !#@#!! you are talking about?

Sheesh.

Jim,

I referenced the door prying only as an example of what a decent blade could do (without breaking) not that you would do it I should have clarified.

There are many instances where not having a decent blade or not having one at all could put your life at risk, use your imagination. If what you say is correct anyone throughout history could get away with a cheap Chinese SAK copy under all circumstances.

And, yes I do know what the @$%@#% I am talking about seeing as I have more dirt time than most of the population teaching survival, working and playing there.

At the end of the day Gutsy can count on his folder for light chores but not much more. A good fixed blade is unequaled in utility by any folder I am aware of. DOnt take my word for it go out and beat on your folder and pry it with full body weight and see what happens.

Like I said its better than nothing but not ideal.

Skam
 
skammer said:
There are many instances where not having a decent blade or not having one at all could put your life at risk...

OLN has the lumberjack competitions and one of the events is the waterboil where they start with a solid round, not unreasonable. With the proper tools water is boiled in minutes. Try that with a selection of tools and see what a massive difference they make. Same thing for other tasks like building a shelter, the right tools can turn a chore of an hour or two to just taking 10-15 minutes. Practice with all the tools you can so you can pick the best ones if possible and as well be prepared if you can't.

-Cliff
 
Originally Posted by Ebbtide
We all know that a folder should would limit one to light chores.
There are lots of folders that are not designed with light uses in mind, just like there are fixed blades that are so limited. You don't put a 1/4" blade on a folder with huge metal handles, promote extreme lock strengths of 1000 + in.lbs and then argue the design implies it should be restricted to "tap" impacts.

cliff, if there is any one I can depend on it is you.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
skammer said:
At the end of the day Gutsy can count on his folder for light chores but not much more. A good fixed blade is unequaled in utility by any folder I am aware of. DOnt take my word for it go out and beat on your folder and pry it with full body weight and see what happens.

Gutsy, or others interested in reality...

While everyone will agree that a fixed blade may be stronger than a folder, and likely a more suited tool for bushcraft, it does not mean you should be beating on it, or prying with your full body weight. You probably know this already, but just in case you get any loony ideas from those trying to tell you that this is an accepted, advisable thing to do. Not even if you are doing it in your backyard, nextdoor to the hospital. Unless you want to get rid of some excess blood and fingers.

I am sure with some maturity, a little experience, and probably some stitches, these ridiculous suggestions will soon vanish from thought, but for now, please put some thought into what you are doing before listening to this potentially dangerous garbage.

From my limited, 20 short years of outdoor experience, and a fair bit of trial and error, the only time that I can think of that you need to hit a knife is to cut limbs off trees/logs, and to get to the dry wood in the middle of a log.
Here are my suggestions that should not break your folders. Bend limbs to stress the point you are cutting, and then hold it there with something (leg, log, etc.) then put your folder on the stressed part and push it into the wood. If it won't cut through, tap it with a baton, just hard enough to dig into the wood, then repeat until it breaks. If you have a weaker folder, just be careful not to smash the sh!t out of it. I have done it many times and it really isn't that hard. I usually use a SAK saw, but have often used my Spyderco Starmate, just to see that I could. Never a problem.
Before you do this, though, think about why you are doing it. Is there absolutely no blowdown or deadfall that would work just as well? Surely there is dead wood that is already dry that will just break off, or can just be gathered up.
If you are cutting green limbs for shelter, make a cut then pull on the limb. It is not that hard to rip it off once the cut is started.
Splitting wood is usually not neccessary. Use smaller logs or limbs, and use your folder to cut smaller arcs off rather than going right down the middle. this gives you piles of strips that dry quickly, then you eventually get to the dry wood inside. Once the fire is going, feed logs into it, and they will dry and burn, no need to cut them.
Shoot, if you are using a fixed blade, it's no different, except that you can hit it harder with the baton.
Yes a fixed blade would be better suited, but a folder will work just fine. At least it does for those of us with a little patience, and willingness to use finesse.

Once again, it all comes down to using your head. (to think with, not as a baton to drive your Battle Mistress through a log or cinder block.)
 
Jim Craig said:
Gutsy, or others interested in reality...

While everyone will agree that a fixed blade may be stronger than a folder, and likely a more suited tool for bushcraft, it does not mean you should be beating on it, or prying with your full body weight.

I am sure with some maturity, a little experience, and probably some stitches, these ridiculous suggestions will soon vanish from thought, but for now, please put some thought into what you are doing before listening to this potentially dangerous garbage.

I pry full body weight on my blades all the time and in my 35 yrs of outdoor experience and it is needed from time to time. The trick is to know your blades can handle it, which I do.

As a cop do you only have plans to fire your sidearm 3 shots for fear of a jam or do you fire it knowing with confidence it wont.

Beating on or using a product for what it was designed for is not "potentially dangerous garbage" its expected. If you have fear of hurting your equipment time for an upgrade.

Skam
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top