if youre stuck without a fixed blade will your folder hold up .

[Thomas Linton]

Be nice. Don't hit.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The statement was about prying a car door open.

Yes, just as a general arguement for use of strength, Busse's use being a non-hypothetical example of such. There are others examples given on the forum where high prying strength was useful in emergency situations, some were on other doors. I do agree that the regular forced opening of a car door is going to be very difficult, even with an actual wrecking bar.

Unless the hinges or latch are broken, you're probably not going to get enough leverage. I KNOW my Camp Tramp is hefty, but "popping" loose either the latch or hinges even with my gorilla bar is iffy.

Yes, I think you are better off cutting the metal.

As far as cutting the sheet metal, a screwdriver and hammer will scream through that.

Just poking the screwdriver through and then cracking through the holes? I tried that with the point of the knife but found it faster to simply chisel cut it. If the knife has a finer point and you don't have a baton and have a fairly hefty shoulder and upper body strength you can just jackhammer stab. If the knife is really heavy and khukuri like in design you can chop a hole but that takes a really heavy knife or extreme strength.

Unless there is IMMEDIATE danger to the victim, you shouldn't be moving them anyway.

Yeah, this is more of an extreme case of the extreme, there was a local who burned to death trapped in a car some years back because the responce time was too slow, horrible case, I knew the family. He was alive for quite some time. Cutting out a windshield is also fairly easy to do with a knife as well, though it will mangle the edge on the knife. So is another option, they are also not impossible to just beat in directly.

In regards to prying, there are lots of makers who design this into their knives, some take it to extremes and look upon high flexing, others tend to design more with the amount of force needed to be resisted and others included both and really high impacts as well and then start to move away from steels designed to cut things like D2 and M2 and towards steels used for springs and hammers like 5160 and S7. As with all aspects of performance, the goal is just to get best combination of properties that you need.

As for batoning, it isn't just the raw force that needs to be considered, it it where you apply the force, the position of the blade in the wood, the grain of the wood and how you hold the handle. For example the easiest way for you to keep the handle stable is to position the shoulder so you can do a straight lean, and put all the force on the very end of the handle, this means you have to apply a minimum of force which is good for you, however it also puts a maximum torque on the lock which is bad for the knife.

However you can also press down on the handle near the pivot with the fleshy part of the hand between the index finger and thumb and then pull up with the pinky finger to directly oppose the rotation of the knife. This reduces the torque on the lock, however it means that you have to do a *lot* more work and your wrist is also much less capable of taking heavy shocks than your shoulder. This general relationship holds for much knife use, the more work you are willing to do, the less strain that comes on your knife.

Knowing which wood types to select and how to split problematic wood is also just as important. You should always think that you are trying to *split* the wood not cut it, so consider the effect of grain twists and knots and know which woods types are inherently very difficult to split and which ones split easily so when scouting you are not just looking for deadfall, but trees of a specific type. Woods also split *much* easier when frozen, but *much* harder when seasoned. Unfortunately they burn much better when fully seasoned but not frozen, if you get lucky the seasoned wood naturally cracks and you can just pound in a wooden wedge. If you get really unlucky all the dead fall is ring knotted, tightly grained and all twisted when it seasoned.

-Cliff

 

[SubaruSTi]

how can you carry a fixed blade everyday everywhere? go to the mall... and your gona get arrested. you cant go around people. if your coat is over it it could be ok but other than that i wouldnt. if i seen someone wearing a 5 inch fixed blade in the bank i would be scared, and im sure the tellers would be too. Rambo is a perfect example, he got arrested for vagrancy, and carrying a concealed weapon that he said was "for hunting" and thats illegal. all becuase he had this huge knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Finally, numerous pioneers in days past did not have the resources, understanding, or benefit of technology to carry what we discuss in this forum.

They all didn't carry the same axe, there are dozens of patterns just for felling alone not to mention swamping and splitting, and hunting (flay poll, heavier edge for bone) and wood shaping (different handle and bit curvature). These designs are very old and not some modern invention.

Your post by the way is fairly interesting in that you at first degrade the idea of a multi-purpose blade which is designed to handle a very broad range of tasks, going fairly far in opposition to that idea, and then follow this by attacking the idea of taking multiple focused tools as well.

It isn't just a Busse idea to have prying ability, one of the attributes that Ed Fowler has for a high performance knife is the ability to take very heavy prying. He builds his blades so that they can bend to 180 degrees multiple times before breaking. By the above logic all the attributes lauded on Skammar apply equally to Fowler and all other makers who do similar.

how can you carry a fixed blade everyday everywhere?

Here nearly all of the folders people discuss on the forums are actually prohibited (they can be wrist opened) but fixed blades don't have length restrictions. Based on what I read a few years back anyway, and as with any law what is exactly "legal" depends on the cop who arrests you, the lawyers who plead the case and ultimately the judge who decides it.

-Cliff

 

[SubaruSTi]

What are the knife laws in alaska? almost everywhere in the us has some law against carrying a big knife. a cop would find most pretty scarry and maybe steal it from you if it looked expensive.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ref :

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ak.txt

-Cliff

 

[SubaruSTi]

see, you cant carry one anywhere in the us. alaska would be the one place i thought you could, its so empty. it seems pointless though becuase most states have concealed carry with handguns. whats wrong with knives?

 

[gutsy]

so how about a summary? what exactly should one do if caught with only a folder ? use it within its scope wich is a folder ? dont wham wham just tap tap and lets see ....what else. i guess one shouldnt wham their folder even though it MAY be able to take it . i guess if you have to use a folder just be careful and use common sense and not push it needlessly . i think cliffs words summed things up pretty well as usual. i will refer to his posts in the future and others as well. anymore summarizing would help round things up.did i get the jist? further enlightenment is always appreciated.

 

[SubaruSTi]

Well its a folder so i wouldnt beat it up too bad. the sharper the better, its not a club its a knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

see, you cant carry one anywhere in the us. alaska would be the one place i thought you could, its so empty.

The last part is the critical issue, most of the senarios of "you are suddenly dumped without warning into an unknown enviroment" really isn't overly likely, most survival senarios have people knowingly going into such situations, hunting, camping, hiking and similar and it turning bad, and you could argue carrying a knife in those situations under the last section. Of course if you are taken to court, defending it could likely get costly.

use it within its scope ...

Yes, similar for fixed blades, some are more capable than others. The more you use them the more you know what they can do, but sometimes you get surprised. I have seen what I would have assumed were fairly heavy duty folders just break from light chopping, just wrist+elbow, no batoning, no shoulder swings or lashing to make a bill hook. You can't go by dimensions, often times small details in the lock can be critical. Same thing for fixed blades, I have seen lots of breaks from fairly light use where the failure point was *way* lower than it should be but the heat treat or design had a major problem. Even the better products can have these problems, Owen took a huge chunk out of a GB axe just chopping wood awhile back, use it well before you need to depend on it.

-Cliff

 

[SubaruSTi]

whatever ill carry my lile rambo knife anywhere

 

[skammer]

It only needs to be necessary once for it to matter. Here all the dead fall has been soaked through and is covered by a layer of ice as it rained for several days then the temp dropped and it snowed and everything froze. You can just whittle all of this off, but it goes much faster if you can chop or pry away to get to the dry core. Yes you don't need a knife to pry, you don't even need a knife to make a fire, nor matches, nor a ferro rod or a mag stick, it just gets easier the more capable your tools. Just like it is easier to handle low temps if you have more suitable clothing.



-Cliff

That is entirely the point.

Of course while I may not be able to "pry a car door open" (bad example admittedly). If I attempted it I know my blades wont break in the process of trying as they are stonger than my physical capabilities.

Knowing your gears capabilities is key. If something does break its time for better gear. What are you willing to trust your life with is the question.

Again, a folder is not a survival knife but does has limited uses and is better than nothing.

Skam

 

[SubaruSTi]

Well a good fixed blade can be practical if its the right size and isnt over the top. A nice randall or anything with a easy to carry leather sheath is a good thing to carry anywhere you might need it.

 

[V_Shrake]

Gusty, it'a commendable to seek knowledge. It's also a realy bad idea to do so HERE. Most of what you'll end up with is a diatribe of some sort or another, and listening to Cliff is the quickest way to NOT learn that I can think of.

Cliff, I honestly don't understand you. You have for years poo-pooed folders for survival, but jump on the survival folder bandwagon just to argue the point. Also, you obviously have NO idea how to use a folder to split wod. I've used a number of different folders with differng locks and constructions, blade material/thickness and have NEVER broken one. It's really quite simple. Using your "technique" of pressing down on the handle is sure ot break the pivot or lock. The proper way it so drive the blade in until the spoine is level with the top of the wood being split, the keeping the knife level and applying force with the baton ONLY on the front/exposed portion of the blade. The only force needed toi be applied to the handle is to keep the blade straight and level in relation to the wood being split. Using this method there is VERY little stress applied to the lock or pivot, as the blade is absorbing the impact of the baton.

BTW, Skammer, I have 150 years of hard core experience in the woods, and do ALL of my backwoods traisping with just an SAK. This statment is just as obviously stupid and impossible as most anythihng you've EVER said on this forum. It's quite easy to proclaim oneself a past-master of any skill, but it's another matter to prove it. Your statements hav, in fact, proven that you know NOTHING about survival other than what you might have gleaned from Saturday afternoon cliffhangers at the cinema. You and Cliff both live in the land of Absolute. According to the 2 of you, I *have* to have a large, heavy thick can't-cut-crap blade in order to survive, despite millenia of experience to the contrary. The fact that you feel that you NEED such a knife shows your complete lack of experience and points out the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Codger_64]

Like most interesting threads, this one follows the vein of a conversation (or debate), without being restricted to the subject of the original post. That is, IMHO, a good thing that keeps it expanding and interesting as well. This thread has it all! Bear dung, chainsaws, auto dismanteling, Alaskan knife laws, malls, and wadded skivies. I forgot surgical robots!

Many, many good points have been made. And the original post has been answered from many perspectives, as varied as the life experience and skills of the respondents.

Pardon me if I add my few cents worth here as a lifelong woodsman, hunter, outdoor sportsman from a rural area with some manufacturing engineer experience. I do not claim to be an eggs spurt, but I guess my opinions are as valid as any other (even though I do not have my own TV show!).

Tools are made either as specific purpose, or multi-purpose. Either way, all tools have design limitations because of materials and construction methods, and any tool (knife) can be used beyond it's intended use for which it was designed. Likewise, any tool can be abused to the point of "failure mode".

One way a tool (knife) can be used is to make another tool, i.e. the idea of using a folder to make a wedge to split wood, instead of using the knife itself to split wood.

I have been in the woods without my trusty fixed blade when it was needed, and managed to disassemble a deer with a tiny folder, a Schrade Old Timer which was meant for use as a gentleman's pocket knife, never as a big game skinner and butcher knife. But using skill, care, and a lot of luck, the carcass went from field to freezer without breaking the knife.

I have been in the woods without any knife when one was needed, and improvised a "field expedient" knife to dress a deer. Once I used a chert flake like my ancestors used. Another time in a swamp, there was no chert to be found. After some searching and head scratching, I found a coke bottle that had floated in on a flood years before, and made a usable knife from the broken glass, knapped and pressure flaked like flint or obsidian.

To me, the answer to the original question is to tackle lighter materials in the use of the knife, thus avoiding breaking it. With the knife fully open, you have less leverage for twist/prying, but you are less likely to snap the blade at the tang than if you left the knife open with the blade at 90 degrees to the handle. Also, the "tap-tap-tap" advice is sound, if you must use a folder as a driven splitting wedge.

There are a lot of folding knives with the exact blade size and profile as their fixed blade counterparts. One example that comes immediately to mind is a pair of Schrades, the XT2B fixed blade and the XT7B lockback folder. The only real difference is the slightly weaker pivot joint of the folder, however, the reduced size of the hidden tang of the fixed version makes this only a slight handicap. With either knife, avoid torquing the blade at the tang, doing the work with the thicker part of the blade, using the handle only to maintain control of the blade, not as a prying or driving point.

Codger

 

[LSkylizard]

..Knowing your gears capabilities is key…What are you willing to trust your life with is the question.

I would agree…but you sometimes do not get the choice in tool.

Again, a folder is not a survival knife but does has limited uses and is better than nothing…

Strongly disagree. SAK folders are often a critical component of small survival kits. They have their limitations but will serve in a survival capacity. Would I want more then a SAK? Yes. Could you use a SAK as a survival tool in the absence of a fixed blade? Yes.

Summary you posted is accurate. I suspect this thread is done and only nit-picking will continue. I hope you have found reasonable answers to your questions. I encourage you to practice in your back yard, check out some books if available on proper knife techniques (I don't have any titles for you).

 

[ropey dope]

Excellent post Codger, knowledge and an ability to think out a solution are key to surviving. The more you carry on top of your neck, the less you need to carry on your back.

 

[canranger]

Excellent post Codger, knowledge and an ability to think out a solution are key to surviving. The more you carry on top of your neck, the less you need to carry on your back.

Where have I heard this before???? HMMM sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my posts!!

 

[Thomas Linton]

Gusty, it'a commendable to seek knowledge. It's also a realy bad idea to do so HERE. Most of what you'll end up with is a diatribe of some sort or another . . . .

And yet your diatribe contains useful information, amongst the insults. I guess adults learn to filter out the invective and special pleading. Life is full of "static."

 

[ropey dope]

Where have I heard this before???? HMMM sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my posts!!

You're great too CR