if youre stuck without a fixed blade will your folder hold up .

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Thomas Linton said:
Speaking of folders, has anyone tried the folding "machete" (more like a golok) that was part of bomber survival kits in WWII?

They come on ebay from time to time, the collector market must be pretty high as they go off user prices fairly fast. I would be curious how long they would last as the blades are massive compared to even large folders like the Manix.

ropey dope said:
You need to whittle a pick and shovel.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Alvin/alvin_paring_cat.jpg

That is a small paring knife, blade less than 1/16" thick, high hollow grind, edge less than 0.005", angle is 3-5 degrees per side, 1095 at 66 HRC. I wasn't jackhammer stabbing that into the ground , but I was not treating it like a piece of glass either. For reference, the Mora 2000, which most consider a fairly light use knife, looks like a splitting wedge compared to that custom.

Digging with a knife isn't overly demanding, unless the geometry is really extreme, it isn't like shovels are high grade steel, the knife just gets blunted and you sharpen it (using one of the rocks you dug up if you have to) and life goes on. The Dodo works nice in rooty soil as does the Cold Steel survival shovel which would be a lot better if it was serrated on one side like a root knife.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Alvin/alvin_paring_cat.jpg

That is a small paring knife, blade less than 1/16" thick, high hollow grind, edge less than 0.005", angle is 3-5 degrees per side, 1095 at 66 HRC. I wasn't jackhammer stabbing that into the ground , but I was not treating it like a piece of glass either. For reference, the Mora 2000, which most consider a fairly light use knife, looks like a splitting wedge compared to that custom.

Digging with a knife isn't overly demanding, unless the geometry is really extreme, it isn't like shovels are high grade steel, the knife just gets blunted and you sharpen it (using one of the rocks you dug up if you have to) and life goes on. The Dodo works nice in rooty soil as does the Cold Steel survival shovel which would be a lot better if it was serrated on one side like a root knife.

-Cliff

That's a cathole, not a foxhole.
 
It just takes more time to dig a larger hole. Yes if you have the time you can craft a nice set of wooden tools, but it is nothing that would bother a knife outside of some extreme geometries like a extreme filet knife which could cut sods and roots but have little ability to pick apart tight soil.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, It was a joke. I know the internet is a notoriously difficult medium for misunderstanding due to the lack of visual and audible cues but, I wasn't suggesting that Gutsy really dig a foxhole with a pick and shovel he'd whittled. I called that hole a cathole because there's a cat standing next to it (that is a cat right, you don't have a terrible body hair problem?)


That too was a joke, don't write back with copies of medical proof that you have perfectly normal body hair.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Digging with a knife isn't overly demanding, unless the geometry is really extreme, it isn't like shovels are high grade steel, ...-Cliff

As my dad would say, "Spoken like a man who has never REALLY dug a hole". 'Course he spent 30 years digging holes, so he knows something about digging.

It is simply not true that digging is not demanding. Digging will ruin a knife in very little time. I have a stainless mora that I use for soil testing. After the first season, the serrations were largely gone, as was most of the edge. Bear in mind I don't dig with this knife - I just use it to remove the soil from my dutch auger.

http://www.benmeadows.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=11097&cat_prefix=6WB

Real soils aren't like the topsoil that are left in residential lots. They have sands, gravel, cobbles, even boulders. All these things will destroy a knife - heck I have to edge my auger pretty often, and it's far more robust than any knife.

This thread has gotten really absurd.

Pat
 
ropey dope said:
...that is a cat right...

No, that is a shrew, the local cats are much bigger, we use them to hunt seals during the six months we don't live in darkness. They are a real pain to train but the real bugger is the cost of the litter.

Outdoors said:
Digging will ruin a knife in very little time.

It is fairly abrasive compared to most materials, and if you use a knife to dig significantly you will have to resharpen it, lots of materials are similar. Fiberglass insulation blunts a knife quickly, spend a year cutting fibreglass insulation eight hours a day and see what your knife looks like, and unlike digging you can't avoid edge contacts. Used carpet is really abrasive as well, there was even a picture a few years back on rec.knives were a guy wore out a serrated blade (no points left) just cutting cardboard.

Real soils aren't like the topsoil that are left in residential lots.

I don't live in a overly residential area, there is no topsoil used, most of the houses were built from wood people cut themselves, many lawns are left undeveloped from when it was either crown lands and are at most just graded off, some were used to graze cattle as short as a dozen years ago. Yes there are rocks in soil, like these :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Randall/randall_1_hole.jpg

generally you remove the rocks not cut through them. Yes, that is an actual lawn.

Digging with a knife is different than with a shovel, it is closer to using a pick, but a lot lighter because picks are fairly blunt and take a fair amount of force to go into the soil vs a knife which does it much easier and is more poking than stabbing and using the hands to actually remove the material.

Generally when people talk about digging with knives it is in an emergency/survival sense so is fairly low volume and usually for burying materials or digging them up (worms and such), not as in you want to dig a foundation for a house, thus it doesn't "ruin" a knife anymore than would an extended session of cutting any abrasive material. The main concern people tend to have is actual breaking rather than wear which is usually due to aggressive prying with the tip around rocks which can usually be avoided by enlarging the hole and digging the rocks out.

-Cliff
 
Digging isn't demanding of a knife since a really dull knife can still dig. Digging with a knife is very destructive to your edge. I took a serrated bread knife once and used it to cut sod. Within a couple hours the knife ceased to be serrated. It still dug and cut sod.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
...
Yes there are rocks in soil, like these :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Randall/randall_1_hole.jpg

generally you remove the rocks not cut through them. Digging with a knife is different than with a shovel, it is closer to using a pick, but a lot lighter because picks are fairly blunt and take a fair amount of force to go into the soil vs a knife which does it much easier and is more poking than stabbing and using the hands to actually remove the material.

Generally when people talk about digging with knives it is in an emergency/survival sense so is fairly low volume and usually for burying materials or digging them up (worms and such), not as in you want to dig a foundation for a house, thus it doesn't "ruin" a knife anymore than would an extended session of cutting any abrasive material. The main concern people tend to have is actual breaking rather than wear which is usually due to aggressive prying with the tip around rocks which can usually be avoided by enlarging the hole and digging the rocks out.

-Cliff

Yes, that is a more typical soil profile, though it appears relatively uncemented. A fairly loose soil.

Yes Cliff, it's obvoious that you don't try to cut through the rocks with a knife. But, since the rocks are covered with soil, you can't dig them out til yiou find them ... with the knife. Si?

Many soils are very difficult to dig in. I've taken 3/4 hour to excavate a 18" soil pit in cemented soils. It's not that uncommon. But it all get's back to the same point - why not use an appropriate digging tool? A digging stick is easily constructed and using one presnets no danger to the edge or point of the knife.

The logic of using one tool to do everything totally evades me. Other animals use tools, but humans create new tools for specific purposes. Seems like a logical idea to me.

P.
 
Those knives are typically real soft and very low wear resistance and thus they wear really fast. According to Mission their Beta-Ti is supposed to work really well exactly for that application. There was a review done awhile back where a guy compared one to a bunch of stainless knives in regards to cutting open bags of sand, through the middle, not the top, and it did really well. I have a M2 blade at 65 HRC that would make an excellent sod cutter, I should do a comparison, I could use honing time to gauge wear though that correlates to machinability as well, but in any case would be interesting.

Outdoors said:
Yes, that is a more typical soil profile, though it appears relatively uncemented. A fairly loose soil.

Yes, it gets rocky in some places but never gets overly dense. The biggest problem is often there is no actual soil just rock, some front yards are just a big rock, nothing digs in that. I helped a friend set a fence a few years back and about one out of every five spots actually worked first go. Otherwise it was take the post digger to create a pilot hole and hit a layer of rock immediately which would just break the post under the sledge if you tried to drive it through.

But, since the rocks are covered with soil, you can't dig them out til yiou find them ... with the knife.

Yes, poke around with the knife, use it to loosen the soil, not stabbing more pushing. You also lead with the spine of the knife not the edge. I often do it in the worse way as an extreme case senario just to see, cutting wind holes for fire pits for example.

But it all get's back to the same point - why not use an appropriate digging tool?

Don't have one usually. Many of the survival knives are multi-purpose in task, and are made from steels which are of the same time used for digging tools, designed to take impacts.

Again it is more of an occasional use, something the knife can do if it has to, not one of the principle designs for most knives anyway, some of the survival ones are so slanted with large board tips for digging.

A digging stick is easily constructed and using one presnets no danger to the edge or point of the knife.

In the majority of cases a digging stick is of benefit, it is rare that a hole has to be done *NOW*. Often you can just crack a dried branch and dig up local soil, you don't even need to shape it. I have been playing with a few designs lately and rediscovered how hard it is to cut a hollow without a chisel or hooked knife.

Knives can however be a better choice than wood in rooty soil which is common here and for cutting away sod, hense the japanese root and garden knives which also work well for cutting up vegetation for food as you can cut at the soil near the base and go right through the stalk.

In the winter digging sticks also don't work well as the ground freezes solid and you get a lot of ice and wood doesn't handle ice well. You can then use rocks to make a pick, similar to a stone axe. Bone, might work as well.

-Cliff
 
Jeff Clark said:
Digging isn't demanding of a knife since a really dull knife can still dig. Digging with a knife is very destructive to your edge. I took a serrated bread knife once and used it to cut sod. Within a couple hours the knife ceased to be serrated. It still dug and cut sod.

It does raise the question though - if it can't cut anymore, is it still an effective knife? I like my knives to be sharp, since I want them to cut things. I can easily make a tool that's blunt out of wood for digging an occasional hole.

I don't use my soil sampling knife to cut things anymore, since it has no edge. I could it of course, but it wouldn't make it any better for cleaning soil from the auger, and it would just wear out faster. I carry a machete and folder for cutting stuff in the field.

Pat
 
Yep. I'm bad at that whole "knowing when there's no point discussing something" thing.
:)

Guess I'll just shut up and buy a B.... ;)

Pat
 
The rest of your post had other points which I addressed in the above such as :

I can easily make a tool that's blunt out of wood for digging an occasional hole.

Which won't work overly well on rooty soil, or really heavy compacted soil, or frozen soil with soft woods or when there is no wood.

If you are only using a knife to scrape soil off of a digging implement then you likely don't need to sharpen it. Just like you can also use a fairly blunt knife as a paint scraper. As Alvin Johnson notes for example on rec.knives, he keeps one of the blades on his custom multi-blades fairly blunt for such tasks, though by fairly blunt he means something different than most.

This however has little to do with a discussion on use of knives for digging in a forum on *wilderness survival*. Now if this was a farming forum, it might be relevant to note that there are more effective tools if that is your primary purpose. Just like if you asked about the ability of an ABS bowie to use for food preperation in this group you would likely expect a different answer than if you asked a group of professional chef's.

As an aside, many tools used for digging in soil, are sharpened, yes they wear out faster but it makes digging easier, same for knives and cutting in general. When they get too blunt from rock impacts you just sharpen, again just like you would for an edged tool, with the angle and grit finish is different depending on the task.

There are many knives made specifically to include digging as one of the primary uses, usually for gardening, and several custom makers include it into the designs of their survival knives as one of the primary purposes such as :

http://www.jenseneliteblades.com/images/estpair.jpg

Which is designed to be a chopping / digging tool. As noted also in the above, there are various tactical applications which cover the same use as the sandbag cutting which requires a knife, as a digging stick would not cut the bags well. Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328931

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I gotta say that you and Skammer are living on a MUCH tougher planet than the rest of us, since every day is a struggle for "survival". Not every knife has to cut theough sheet metal, and most folks don't use their knives to dig with, survival situation or not. You go out of your way to make your "scenarios" as slanted towards your choice of knives as is possible, and when soneone points out another way (or type of knife) to accomplish the same task, you up the ante by making the soil rockier, or the wood tighter grained, or whatever.

The bottom line is that you and skammer both have never provided any real proof of your credentials, and your sole purpose for being on the forums is to arhue with and ridicule anyone who doesn't fall into line with your way of thinkng. Is your life truly so shallow that this is the best way to spend your time?
 
"Cliff, I gotta say that you and Skammer are living on a MUCH tougher planet than the rest of us,...."

Heh heh he, nice one V. I'm still laughing. :D :D :thumbup:

We should just face the facts. There is no way to win against someone who says he knows something but really doesn't.
No viable counter points, just ridiculous arguements to your viable counter points.
'round and 'round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...
 
V_Shrake said:
CYou go out of your way to make your "scenarios" as slanted towards your choice of knives as is possible....

Well yes, when discussing the use of particular knives you would pick senarios which match their design. Those types of knives are fairly commonly recommended, Hood, Davenport, and Janosky for example all favor that style of long robust blade, not as Bushcraft but survival tools. Even Cook for example who wrote "The axe book" notes that he would actually recommend a heavy blade over a hatchet, mainly because he feels hatchets are too dangerous, which I don't agree with but a lot of people do.

What I actually personally EDC (aside from knives for evaluation) is quite minimalist, usually very small knives, paring and such. I tend to focus mainly on trying to make due with the least knife I can which is focused as much on being a pure cutting tool customs by Wilson or Johnson or small folders like the UK Pen. However I can just appreciate the use of designs like a SHBM or ER FUlcrum and not attempt to denegrate others because they don't make the same choice I do or say a tool has no use or value because it isn't exactly what I would want.

I have also started working with knapping glass and hopefully flint soon and will maybe reach the point where I can make decent working knives out of those materials. However when I do, I won't start posting on the forums and denegrating people who use steel knives when it is obvious that you can easily survive on your own if you develop the skill to make natural ones.

-Cliff
 
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