OP, call it a day with BRKT. You can find great custom choppers that can actually chop wood for under 200 right here on the forums. I just read another thread regarding a Golock with a rolled edge. Best of luck to you through all of this brother!
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I'm done with Bark River
- Thread starter PharaohX3
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You are trying to take what I said out of context again, just to be argumentative.
Because you believe/classify mesquite to be just plain old firewood does not make it a reality.
Just because you "interpret" things about an ad copy or a companies warranty does not make that company liable for actions or conditions you should be aware of when using the product. I don't see anywhere where BRKT's ad copy says you cannot baton thru armor plate, but I think you possibly might be well aware of what would happen if you should do so.
Well, on top of everything else, looks like Mike Stewart is a liar too. Instead of owning up he makes excuses and passes the buck. Classic. You can believe what you want man, I had the conversation with him, you didnt. You make a ton of cash with this guy so I can understand why you always rush to his defense. Thats business I guess, no big deal. Hopefully one day, after years and years of hearing this exact sort of complaint regarding BRKT customer service, you will wake up. Best of luck to ya man. And thanks for the earlier offer but I'll pass.
Creaky Bones
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Or one can not defend knife companies that lie about performance and then berate their customers when their products don't live up to the hype they spew.
So according to you knife companies have no accountability for how they describe their products and everything is the customer's fault no matter what the company writes. Or are you trying to say that Bark River lies about product performance and we can't believe anything they say?
How about companies honestly describe how their products perform? See, then it would be the customer's fault for doing something not outlined in acceptable use guidelines. Right now it's not the customer's fault. He did exactly what Bark River said he could do with the knife. Literally word for word what they said on their website. But oh, let's blame the customer instead of placing blame where it belongs
Agree 100%. BRKT threads seem to elicit more "shoot the messenger" responses than most brands. If the same thread was about a Condor Golok you'd get a bunch of "Well Condors are cheap and it must have been a crappy heat treat". Here the responses are "You were obviously chopping the wrong kind of wood, so it's your fault". The reference to batoning armor is just silly. He was chopping wood with a knife designed to chop wood. On the other hand, if I did decide to baton armor with an ESEE and screwed up the blade, they'd just replace it.
And Mr. Randall would call you an idiot for doing so and tell you to purchase somewhere else, the same as he did to several people whom were using their ESEE knives as throwing knives, which incidentally ESEE does not warranty for. BUT no one brings up the issue of how he's berated customers in the past......
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ESEE-Idiots-Round-2?highlight=throwing+knives
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Replacements-again?highlight=throwing+knives
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...es-quot-we-are-giving-away?highlight=warranty
And here's where Mr. Perrin calls batonning "Abuse"....but no one holds that against him....
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ng-blade-while-batoning?p=9189751#post9189751
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I am sure that Mike Stewarts reputation speaks for itself. The difference is that ESEE never advertised their knives as "throwing knives" then blamed the customer when they threw it into certain types of wood. Like I said before, dont call it a chopper if you dont want people chopping with it.
Once again, if a user is going to hold a manufacturer/maker responsible for what they do or do not specifically say in their ad copy or warranty, they also need to recognize their own responsibilities for having forethought and knowledge of proper usage, care and knowing what they are "chopping".
It isn't just a one way street where the customer gets his way in every instance and is allowed to publically denounce a manufacturer because they didn't get their way.
Creaky Bones
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And if I tried to baton through armor, he'd have every right to call me an idiot. If on the other hand I screwed up a brand new junglas chopping wood, and he called me an idiot for using a chopper to chop wood, he'd be an ass. Your point about other company owners besides Stewart berating customers is well taken, and my selection of esee was obviously flawed. That does not change the fact that in this case the OP was using the knife as it was advertized to be used and it failed that application. I don't think he was in any way unjustified in requesting a replacement, and that's clearly not what he was offered.
Your thinking is as flawed as your example. The OP failed to recognize he was chopping something that would damage his knife...... His responsibility. No warranty specifically outlines every instance that it does or does not cover. It cannot possibly do so. He was offered for it to be ground with a more obtuse bevel so that it may do so in the future. Normally warranties do not cover acts of ignorance, nor do they cover wear and tear or acts of gross misusage.
Abuse of a companies good will and warranties and threads such as this on forums is what causes warranties to change. Usually in a way that does not make the customer very happy.
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Creaky Bones
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Well I guess that clears it up. Sorry PharaohX3. Your fault.
I know where you are coming from and I actually agree to an extent. I have actually damaged a knife that I shouldnt have chopped with. At first I was mad about it but after a cooling down period, I realized I was using it beyond what the maker had intended. That was my fault. The difference is that the maker didnt call it a chopper, then expect that I had the experience and knowledge of grinds, edge thickness, hardness, etc, to know what wood I should or shouldnt chop with it. If you sell a knife as a "chopper" you cant assume that everyone has the knowledge or experience to determine what wood they should or shouldnt chop. To be honest, I think that we would have never even heard this story if it had happened with any other knife maker because most other knifemakers dont treat there customers like Mike Stewart does. I bet if he would have been professional and polite, the knife would have been sent back to be fixed and this thread would have never been made.
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I'm confused...in that thread about throwing knives, the ESEE company man said this: "It's pretty simple folks: we warranty the knives (even from the idiots who throw them or grind on them) but you have to follow the SIMPLE warranty rules found on our web site to get it replaced."
It sounds like they do warranty their knives against that (and all sorts of other horrible misuse), it's just they had absolutely no record of that one dude's particular knife and they couldn't track it down for him.
And Mr. Perrin calling batonning "abuse" is very different from what's going on in this thread. "Remember, batoning any knife is really abuse although we all do it and expect our blades to handle it. But depending on the wood, grain, knots and what might be embedded, there are a lot of strange forces at play when you baton a knife. Someone posted a pict thread up of a 6 being batoned through Oak. Take a look at the that thread and you will see why a knfie can and will break under certain conditions."
First of all, he's right about that, and so are you for that matter - if you baton (or chop, for that matter) with your knives, especially into tough woods, you shouldn't be surprised when they break. Like I said earlier, people act like Knife beats Wood every time, but they're wrong and should know better - companies and customers alike. If they were smart half of these folks wouldn't advertise their knives as being good at chopping or batoning in the first place - otherwise they're literally asking for this kind of crap to happen. Second, that doesn't seem to have stopped ESEE from honouring the warranty on knives that broke during batoning. Third, I don't see anything in ESEE's advertising that contradicts that statement against batoning - it not as though they advertised their products as being 'batoning knives' or something and then refused to replace them when they failed under batoning (ie: a use they specified in their advertising). Fourth, most of those customers he 'berated' were genuine, certified morons who literally took tools to their knives in a concerted effort to destroy them (one of those dudes literally cut his Izula in half with a saw).The pics in those threads are broken now, but they were a real horror show - and you're seriously drawing comparisons to them?
Besides, let's not act like this is the very first time this has happened with BRKT. Past shady dealings and whatnot aside, we've had more than one thread about BRKT not living up to their advertising, or giving lacklustre customer service when their products failed to deliver.
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If one purchases a product and fails to educate themselves about said product, it's usage or it's care, is it really the fault of the maker/manufacturer? Case in point: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1082259-Not-Happy
As to Mr. Stewarts "well known" nature. There are usually 3 sides to every story. A side, B side and the truth....
You need to actually read the ESEE warranty before posting, this is actually what it says:
ESEE KNIVES ARE NOT THROWING KNIVES! They are hardened to a higher Rockwell than throwing knives and will most likely break if thrown, possibly harming the user. So, do yourself and your ESEE knife a favor and DO NOT throw it. Using any knife not meant to be thrown as a throwing knife is idiotic! We would rather idiots not buy our knives.
In the threads I posted above, not only were the customers berated by Mr. Randall in private AND publically, they were publically mocked in the ESEE forum in several threads. ESEE does market their knives as "Hard Use" knives for any environment, Do they not? Noone seems to take issue with their ad copy....
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..Which with a Bark River could mean absolutely anything. Including - literally - chopsticks.
Back on Planet Common Sense: it is the users job to recognize if he is chopping something that should not be chopped with a knife in general. That's it, unless he got specific warnings otherwise. The guy was just trying to chop regular WOOD. Not adamantium, concrete, or lignum vitae. Wood.
And whenever there is a problem like this:
- There's a 90% chance the knife will be from BRKT
- There's a very good chance that they'll try to screw the customer
- BKRT's hordes of fan bois (who quite possibly include paid shills - it's like Mike Stewart hasn't done much worse, at least judging from his criminal record and testimony from other knife makers) will blame the user.
Phaoroh: you're only mistake was in buying a Bark River; I hope you don't screwed for the cost of the knife. (In the UK I could tell you exactly what do to force them to give you your money back, but I'm assuming you are in the US.)
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...and yet by their wording in that thread, it seems as though they were willing to replace abused knives, even for idiots who threw them. That's interesting. :thumbup:
Besides, like I'm saying yet again, they're right. If you throw your knives, you are an idiot, and that all has very little relevance to OP's situation. You could stand to read the posts you're replying to before getting so excited - I was actually agreeing with a large part of your point. :thumbup: Now, though, it's starting to sound less and less like you have any legitimate point to make, and more like you're just trying to bash another company to take the focus off of BRKT.
Say it ain't so!
..You might want to look at previous threads about Mike, his legal history, and what ex-employees, dealers, and other knife makers have to say about him.
Really: you have my sympathy. It's probably hard for someone like you who uses knives to understand how BKRT can stay in business (they have an awful lot of support from male jewellery collectors who get quite irrational if someone tries to use one of the damn things for cutting or chopping something.)
Perhaps you should read more also. If you'll notice they told the knife thrower to pound sand and buy elsewhere. I was present when the thread was posted. I'm neither trying to bash another company (I was not the one whom brought ESEE into this discussion), nor defend BRKT. I'm actually trying to defend common sense and understanding before flying off the handle with unfounded accusation.
As I've stated numerous times in this thread. If a customer expects a company be responsible, they better darn well recognize their role in responsibility also.
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