I'm new here...why does every fixed blade knife have to be a star at batoning?

[Thorgrim]

I was never issued any rule book regarding what knives can or can't, should or shouldn't be used for, and that's a good thing, because I don't believe in such rules.

With some exceptions, I look upon a knife as a tool, a sharpened piece of steel with a handle attached, and as such, it is capable of being used for a wide variety of tasks. Its only limits being the characteristics of its design, the quality of its steel, and the ingenuity of it's user. As i see it, the great value of a knife is that it is one of man's most versatile tools.

As far as batonning goes, I've "hammered" fixed-blades through thick rope, both natural and synthetic, rope that would have taken me a long time to cut through using the conventional method (if at all), and I would have dulled most of the edge in the process. Instead, I simply placed the rope on a piece of wood, placed the edge of my knife on the rope, and with one or two hard wacks to the spine of the blade I cut right through the rope.

People often say "choose the right tool for the job", but i say- if a knife is what you have, and if that knife is capable of performing a task effectively, without being destroyed in the process, then it WAS the right tool for the job.

A man, equipped with nothing more than his ingenuity and a good knife, can accomplish a great many things.

Rope is a particularly difficult cutting task, it's why seamen were often issued, or at least had available, axes and similar tools.

I haven't made fun of anyone for batoning a piece of wood - or, if I have I don't remember it, but it's unlike me. I do joke about where they found all those perfectly sized sections of wood, but it's just that, a jest. Like you, I realize that you use what you have, which is why there are numerous reports of GI's in WWI digging foxholes with their bayonets, and why Spetsnaz sharpened the edge of their entrenching shovels and learned to use them as weapons; that, and the fact that the average soldier has a lot of downtime and learning to fight a new way is entertaining and might actually some day be useful. There's also the idea of keeping pack weight down by figuring out how to make one tool do the work of several. The typical bayonet or "fighting knife" was unlikely to be a good choice for a slashing type of blade fighting - but even if you'd dulled them carving out a fighting position, you could still stab with one and stabbing works if you do enough of it. A person caught in a disaster of some sort is likely to have a very minimal pack as they don't know how long they'll be carrying it and whether speed is important - for those people, a baton-a-ble knife makes perfect sense.

Like has been said, I see the ingenuous use of a tool as a benefit, not a distraction from the tool's intended purpose. A well-made and maintained tool can do both.

 

[PsychoSword]

I REALLY like my little "Kodiak".

...from chopping/de-limbing/batoning/reducing a little green Mesquite, to cutting/breaching a plastic pack of Kiolbassa sausage, and cutting it up for some tacos over my camp stove... (*definitely NOT a "survival" situation)







I have a GB hatchet and a couple of capable Estwings, and would choose my big knife over any of 'em...any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Flame, Flame, FLAME away! (*Your mileage may vary)

That looks more like a chef chopping blade than a knife, so that makes sense.

 

[stabman]

What a kickass blade, any other pictures? And to be honest using a saw (bacho folding type or even a sak farmer) is probably the smarter option...

But who doesnt like blasting a thick knife through wood. I dont see why not. Im no more worried about breaking my Terava 140 on batoning wood than I am my Council Tool axe.

Here it is with new handle texturing and modification to handle swell:

Posing with a buddy down by the river:

Cutting tomatoes:

Cutting onions:

Posing with art:

 

[bdmicarta]

It seems like batoning is the standard by which all fixed blade knives are judged by. Why is that? I use a axe or hatchet for that. It seems that a lot of knife nuts are wanna be survivalists just like many guns nut seem to be wanna be "operators".

I think "bushcraft" with a fixed blade is somewhat of a new thing, it's a way to play with a knife and do new things with it. In our new age of internet videos everywhere it's a thing that people can make and share videos of.

 

[scdub]

In a real emergency situation the question is not so much whether you can do simple things like build a fire, the question is whether or not you will use more calories doing a task that are returned to you through your efforts.

FYI - if it’s cold, and it’s going to get colder, fire and/or shelter are worth whatever calories you spend making them. Don’t sit there shivering trying to “conserve energy”. I’ve seen peeps do just that and it’s wrong. In a survival emergency, if you aren’t already sure what to do, think hard, then think of what could go wrong with your plan and re-plan as needed, then TAKE ACTION.

I think "bushcraft" with a fixed blade is somewhat of a new thing, it's a way to play with a knife and do new things with it. In our new age of internet videos everywhere it's a thing that people can make and share videos of.

Nope, sorry - humans have been bushcrafting with fixed blades since we learned to sharpen rocks and bones.

 

[Drop bear]

Is the batoning thing part of the idea that we need a good knife?

Where I have seen legitimate bushcrafters using some pretty substandard knives.

This one was kind of fun.

His really good knife is a SOG.

 

[bdmicarta]

Nope, sorry - humans have been bushcrafting with fixed blades since we learned to sharpen rocks and bones.

I've been a knife enthusiast for a very long time. Batoning knives was never a thing on the internet until recent years so it must be a matter of more content creators and social media platforms for sharing video.

 

[Arathol]

I've been a knife enthusiast for a very long time. Batoning knives was never a thing on the internet until recent years so it must be a matter of more content creators and social media platforms for sharing video.

Yup....Look up Mors Kochansky or Ray Mears....

 

[Arathol]

I think "bushcraft" with a fixed blade is somewhat of a new thing, it's a way to play with a knife and do new things with it. In our new age of internet videos everywhere it's a thing that people can make and share videos of.

What the internet calls "Bushcraft" is somewhat new. Survival skills aren't. The former is just a re-invention of the latter by certain individuals to promote their particular methods and / or training classes, books, products, videos etc....

 

[scdub]

I've been a knife enthusiast for a very long time. Batoning knives was never a thing on the internet until recent years so it must be a matter of more content creators and social media platforms for sharing video.

In the post I was responding to you mentioned bushcrafting, not batonning.

Either way however I’m certain that hitting the spine of a knife with a stick to help it cut is likewise not a recent invention, and has probably been used by random folks for thousands of years.

The popularization of batonning, especially through oversized logs, is modern.

The concept itself is ancient.

 

[Dr Rez]

The popularization of batonning, especially through oversized logs, is modern.

The concept itself is ancient.

Agreed, its been done for MANY years.

I would add though with the massive improvements in metallurgy and the general knifemaking process by manufacturers it makes sense batoning is more popular. You can buy a super capable knife for under 30 bucks today, not really the case in much of history.

 

[Thorgrim]

What the internet calls "Bushcraft" is somewhat new. Survival skills aren't. The former is just a re-invention of the latter by certain individuals to promote their particular methods and / or training classes, books, products, videos etc....

I used to do those things in the 60's, we called it "The Boy Scouts"

 

[chevyrulez1]

I have never batoned anything. But I would if I was preparing a fire. I used to be quite good at making a fire. It's just a test that some use to test their knives, mostly. It is absolutely ridiculous how some here on this forum are at war with batoning with a knife. It's just a way to split wood. And a test. Who cares. A good knife is a good knife.

I have made negative comments about batonning wood, but my dislike of it is not directed at those knife users who do it. I understand the concept and see its usefulness in many situations, and people are free to enjoy their stuff however they like. The main thing that bothers me is now knife manufacturers are designing their knives to withstand this test, which has led to knives being made with thicker blade stock and robust grinds to accommodate the abusive YouTube testing. But in my opinion it takes away from the knife's intended purpose. That is the rub I have with this as a testing standard. As time goes on it becomes harder and harder to find a knife, even pocket knives, with thin blade stock and slicey blade grinds. I don't really care about batonning and tip tests, I would rather have a thin slicey hollow grind blade that will cut cheese easily

 

[Dr Rez]

The main thing that bothers me is now knife manufacturers are designing their knives to withstand this test, which has led to knives being made with thicker blade stock and robust grinds to accommodate the abusive YouTube testing.

Withstand batoning? Why is that bad...its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives. You haven't named any good reasons why someone wouldnt baton with a knife that was capable of doing so.

Mors Kochanski, Ray Mears, and many others all require a woods knife to be able to baton. Are you saying they are wrong? ALl this push against batoning is so strange, I dont see how it effects someone else or why its so strange someone else may have a different way of doing things.

But to reduce batoning to "its a youtube fad done by people who dont know anything" is so silly.

 

[afishhunter]

IMHO, They don't. In my 63 years of  using a knife, I have  never had the inclination to beat my knife through anything.

Truth be told, before joining BF, I had never heard of batoning a sporting/hunting knife. No one I knew - friends, family, or friends of either, did that. We didn't in the BSA while camping.
The only "knife" we batoned was designed for that abuse: a Froe.

Honestly, we didn't use our knives for firewood/firewood prep. Somehow we always managed to find enough twigs, dry leaves/grass, etc. for kindling. (we also made a habit of having a hank of twine or hemp, some soaked in wax, some outer cotton clothesline in Potassium Nitrate/Saltpeter, a lighter (usually a Zippo, or Ronson, until the disposable Bic lighters came out), a bottle of either Zippo/Ronson lighter fluid, or a bottle of charcoal starter, and waterproof strike anywhere matches.
At most we might have whittled a feather stick.
There always seemed to be enough dry to rotting deadfall for firewood. I don't recall ever having to split the firewood when camping.
We always had at least a belt axe/hatchet with us, that could (and did) pull double duty driving tent stakes, and a bow saw or chainsaw chain with handles on both ends.

Of course at age 68, I was raised during the "Use The Right Tool For The Job" era, and when "common sense" still was.

Times have changed ...

 

[chevyrulez1]

Withstand batoning? Why is that bad...its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives. You haven't named any good reasons why someone wouldnt baton with a knife that was capable of doing so.

Mors Kochanski, Ray Mears, and many others all require a woods knife to be able to baton. Are you saying they are wrong? ALl this push against batoning is so strange, I dont see how it effects someone else or why its so strange someone else may have a different way of doing things.

But to reduce batoning to "its a youtube fad done by people who dont know anything" is so silly.

I didn't attempt to give reasons why someone wouldn't baton, that was not my intent. In fact, in my post I said "I understand the concept and see its usefulness in many situations"
Let me rephrase my earlier post, I dislike "torture testing" knives. A perfect example is the "tip test"
How many times have you watched a video and seen people stab a knife into a hardwood log, bend the knife sideways, and then when the tip breaks off they say "total fail!"
The way I see it, the knife didn't fail, they abused it and broke it.
When people are constantly testing knives in these extreme ways, the standard is being set by the YouTubers that the consumers "expect" the knives to survive extreme abuse, or else it "fails" and is not recommended
You said "its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives", but that is my point, they are becoming harder and harder to find, and I think it is because consumer demand is pushing for knives that will pass the torture tests. You may like carrying a beast of a knife capable of withstanding massive amounts of abuse, (and there is nothing wrong with that) but others may not want that, but it seems the entire industry being forced in that direction.
A perfect example is the new Case modern folders, blade thickness is .149" thick! The full size Benchmade Griptilian is .115 thick, and it was considered a heavy duty hard use knife.

 

[dogstar]

I didn't attempt to give reasons why someone wouldn't baton, that was not my intent. In fact, in my post I said "I understand the concept and see its usefulness in many situations"
Let me rephrase my earlier post, I dislike "torture testing" knives. A perfect example is the "tip test"
How many times have you watched a video and seen people stab a knife into a hardwood log, bend the knife sideways, and then when the tip breaks off they say "total fail!"
The way I see it, the knife didn't fail, they abused it and broke it.
When people are constantly testing knives in these extreme ways, the standard is being set by the YouTubers that the consumers "expect" the knives to survive extreme abuse, or else it "fails" and is not recommended
You said "its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives", but that is my point, they are becoming harder and harder to find, and I think it is because consumer demand is pushing for knives that will pass the torture tests. You may like carrying a beast of a knife capable of withstanding massive amounts of abuse, (and there is nothing wrong with that) but others may not want that, but it seems the entire industry being forced in that direction.
A perfect example is the new Case modern folders, blade thickness is .149" thick! The full size Benchmade Griptilian is .115 thick, and it was considered a heavy duty hard use knife.

Just buy knives in the thickness that you want... It's how you vote with your dollar. I have no problem avoiding pry bars, but I stick to mostly traditional designs.

 

[Dr Rez]

I didn't attempt to give reasons why someone wouldn't baton, that was not my intent. In fact, in my post I said "I understand the concept and see its usefulness in many situations"
Let me rephrase my earlier post, I dislike "torture testing" knives. A perfect example is the "tip test"
How many times have you watched a video and seen people stab a knife into a hardwood log, bend the knife sideways, and then when the tip breaks off they say "total fail!"
The way I see it, the knife didn't fail, they abused it and broke it.
When people are constantly testing knives in these extreme ways, the standard is being set by the YouTubers that the consumers "expect" the knives to survive extreme abuse, or else it "fails" and is not recommended
You said "its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives", but that is my point, they are becoming harder and harder to find, and I think it is because consumer demand is pushing for knives that will pass the torture tests. You may like carrying a beast of a knife capable of withstanding massive amounts of abuse, (and there is nothing wrong with that) but others may not want that, but it seems the entire industry being forced in that direction.
A perfect example is the new Case modern folders, blade thickness is .149" thick! The full size Benchmade Griptilian is .115 thick, and it was considered a heavy duty hard use knife.

Fair enough, thank you for the good response. George Carlin has a quote in his standup that says "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." That applies to youtubers as well.

Personally I really like batoning with a knife to make notches and such for pothangers or other various cooking activities. Also if I dont want to carry a hatchet I can use my Bacho and Terava 140 to get plenty of fire wood for hours.

 

[afishhunter]

Withstand batoning? Why is that bad...its not like you cant still get plenty of other thinner more nimble knives. You haven't named any good reasons why someone wouldnt baton with a knife that was capable of doing so.

Mors Kochanski, Ray Mears, and many others all require a woods knife to be able to baton. Are you saying they are wrong? ALl this push against batoning is so strange, I dont see how it effects someone else or why its so strange someone else may have a different way of doing things.

But to reduce batoning to "its a youtube fad done by people who dont know anything" is so silly.

A knife's primary purpose historically, is to cut and slice.
A thick blade stock does not do either well, in my experience. Also, to be useful for batoning, the blade (from whet I've read about the subject here) should be at least 7 to 10 inches long. NOT a handy length for skinning anything smaller than an elephant, or hippo/rhino ... and that length may be overkill for them ...

For any game in North America (outside of exotic game ranches that offer elephant/hippo/rhino hunts) a 3 to 5 inch blade and a bone saw, is all that is required to field dress, quarter if necessary, and butcher any North American game animal. (I suspect the same is true in Central and South America, as well.)

If you carry a knife designed for batoning, that is what it does best. Sure, it can do other knife tasks - with more effort and time than a 3 to 5 inch thin blade stock general purpose blade, which will also be more nimble in use.
Hence one is more likely to carry the oversize "over built" knife for chopping/splitting, and a thinner, more nimble blade for everything else. That for all practical purposes limited use/single use over-size batoning knife can weigh as much or more than a belt axe or hatchet, which can also be batoned, by the way. The belt axe/hatchet can also double as a hammer.

A cable saw, or chainsaw chain fitted with handles, or a bow saw (some are foldable), or even the saw included on some SAK's make a lot more sense for cutting wood for the fire, or saplings for shelter poles, etc.) (felling saplings, and branches is currently prohibited at state and national parks, by the way. I'm pretty sure most - if not all farmers and other property owners with wood lots also frown on the practice.)

Honestly, you should watch a few of the 'VINNIE'S DAY OFF' videos on You Tube.
He builds shelters (including cutting willow saplings for the poles), has a nice campfire for cooking and warming the shelter, make a survival bow and arrows, etc. using nothing but a folding knife, as small as 2 7/8 inches closed, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the old adage: "Finesse beats brute strength. Finesse is also easier on you tools/equipment, and you", and that a fixed blade is not necessary for survival, IF you have the knowledge and skill set.
So, yes. The gentlemen you mention are mistaken.

Dave Canterbury is another who says knowledge and skill beat brute strength.

 

[dogstar]

Also, to be useful for batoning, the blade (from whet I've read about the subject here) should be at least 7 to 10 inches long

I'm gonna disagree with you there.
You can baton with any size blade you please. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.