Inclusive the hard way

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

hhmoore said:
Guys - you each understand what the other is saying...
RX-79G, maybe you're caught up in things, out maybe you're just being obtuse; but the answer to your question isn't shrouded in mystery: if a chisel ground blade is only sharpened on one side, and it is sharpened to a 30 degree angle, where is the confusion? It doesn't really matter whether one wants to use the term inclusive, does it? 30 degrees is 30 degrees, right?

I'm not trying to be obtuse - everyone understands the problem: How does one make an inclusive statement about edge angles of multiple knives without having to caveat it all by singling out chisel grinds?

DAVE_M · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
If I say my knife edge is 30 DPS, the reader doesn't know if that is 60 inclusive or 30 on a chisel.

Seriously, bro? Are you that naive?

If you had a chisel grind, why would say your knife edge is 30 Degrees Per Side? Per side means there is more than one side sharpened.

hhmoore · Mar 12, 2015

Just saw how long this thread was - forget I was even here. I'm going back to bed

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

DAVE_M said:
Seriously, bro? Are you that naive?

If you had a chisel grind, why would say your knife edge is 30 Degrees Per Side? Per side means there is more than one side sharpened.

Dave, someone making a knife says the following:
"I haven't decided on a grind yet, but the blade will be 4 inches long, used for skinning and will be D2 hardened to 60 Rc. What kind of edge angle should I use?"

Do you tell them not to go under 30 degrees inclusive, even though that can't be applied to a chisel?
Do you tell them not to go under 15 degrees per side, and hope that they aren't making a chisel grind?
Or do you write two separate sentences - "don't go under 30 degrees inclusive, or 30 degrees if it is a chisel grind"?

hhmoore · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
I'm not trying to be obtuse - everyone understands the problem: How does one make an inclusive statement about edge angles of multiple knives without having to caveat it all by singling out chisel grinds?

I don't care if you use the term inclusive...but, in the case of a chisel grind, isn't it somewhat irrelevant? If a chisel grind has a 30 degree angle, and its only ground on one side, that side is 30 degrees. It isn't 30 dps because we understand that only one side is ground. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough (or maybe I'm just somewhat reasonable and not inclined to dwell on it), but calling it 30 degrees inclusive doesn't offend my sensibilities. I understand, and don't wholly disagree with the arguments against it...it's just that the question is more easily addressed without getting mired in semantics.

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

hhmoore said:
I don't care if you use the term inclusive...but, in the case of a chisel grind, isn't it somewhat irrelevant? If a chisel grind has a 30 degree angle, and its only ground on one side, that side is 30 degrees. It isn't 30 dps because we understand that only one side is ground. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough (or maybe I'm just somewhat reasonable and not inclined to dwell on it), but calling it 30 degrees inclusive doesn't offend my sensibilities. I understand, and don't wholly disagree with the arguments against it...it's just that the question is more easily addressed without getting mired in semantics.

Getting mired in semantics when I asked a question about a chisel ground knife is exactly why this thread is this long. If using the word "inclusive" to compare a regular and chisel was okay, my question would have just been addressed for what it was about, not for how it was phrased.

If there are enough people here that are going to make comparing the edges of knives difficult in the way I did it, let's decide the right way.

Charr · Mar 12, 2015

hhmoore said:
Just saw how long this thread was - forget I was even here. I'm going back to bed

My thoughts exactly at this point. Keep checking in on this every once in a while, but I don't see anyone actually answering the question...which is kind of insane...no, I think it literally is insane.

asdf12345 · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
I'm not trying to be obtuse - everyone understands the problem: How does one make an inclusive statement about edge angles of multiple knives without having to caveat it all by singling out chisel grinds?

Obtuse. Heh.

mtangent · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Getting mired in semantics when I asked a question about a chisel ground knife is exactly why this thread is this long. If using the word "inclusive" to compare a regular and chisel was okay, my question would have just been addressed for what it was about, not for how it was phrased.

If there are enough people here that are going to make comparing the edges of knives difficult in the way I did it, let's decide the right way.

IMO, you have been right all along. DAVE M is just trolling the thread.

egally08 · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Actually, I'm trying to figure out how you want me to say it.

If I say my knife edge is 30 DPS, the reader doesn't know if that is 60 inclusive or 30 on a chisel.

Yes they would. If you said a chisel ground edge was 30 DPS than you would be wrong.

If I say my knife is 30 degrees, the reader won't know if that is total or on a side.

It's not hard, let me give you an example -
"I reground my hinderer to 30 degrees inclusive"
"I reground my emerson to 30 degrees"

Anyone that knows anything about knives would know exactly what you are saying.

And I can't say a knife is 60 degrees inclusive if one of those degrees is 0.

Right. You would say your edge is 60 degrees.

So tell me what term is appropriate for all types of edges. No debate, just tell me how to make a general statement about edges without running into this problem.

Why does there need to be a one size fits all?

Do you tell them not to go under 30 degrees inclusive, even though that can't be applied to a chisel?

yes it can.

Do you tell them not to go under 15 degrees per side, and hope that they aren't making a chisel grind?

Any knife maker would simply add 15+15 and come to the conclusion to not go under 30 degrees for a chisel.

Or do you write two separate sentences - "don't go under 30 degrees inclusive, or 30 degrees if it is a chisel grind"?

We're all generally knowledgeable here, and can figure out what most people mean. If you're so easily confused and have to have everything spelled out for you, than maybe you shouldn't be arguing just for the sake of it.

egally08 · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Getting mired in semantics when I asked a question about a chisel ground knife is exactly why this thread is this long. If using the word "inclusive" to compare a regular and chisel was okay, my question would have just been addressed for what it was about, not for how it was phrased.

If there are enough people here that are going to make comparing the edges of knives difficult in the way I did it, let's decide the right way.

If you would have just taken the correction that was given and moved on this would have never turned into anything.

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

egally08 said:
Do you tell them not to go under 30 degrees inclusive, even though that can't be applied to a chisel?

Click to expand...

yes it can.

Dave_M says it can't, which is why this thread exists.

If everyone is fine with the occassional inclusive use of "inclusive", then we're done.

egally08 · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Dave_M says it can't, which is why this thread exists.

If everyone is fine with the occassional inclusive use of "inclusive", then we're done.

Great.

Like I said before - It's not necessarily grammatically incorrect to use it while speaking of other knives at the same time (because everyone will know what you mean) - But if you are going to specifically acknowledge a chisel grind, I personally would not say inclusive - But that is just my opinion, but I think it is in the majority.

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

egally08 said:
If you would have just taken the correction that was given and moved on this would have never turned into anything.

Which correction? You don't agree with Dave.

egally08 · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Which correction? You don't agree with Dave.

Maybe I missed it, but please show me where Dave said, when speaking in general terms and grouping other knives together, inclusive wouldn't be appropriate.

I'm pretty sure he said when specifically talking about a chisel, using the word inclusive wouldn't be needed.

DAVE_M · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
Which correction? You don't agree with Dave.

He does agree with me and I agree with him, because we really aren't agreeing on anything. We are just trying to point out, to you, that using the word inclusive is unnecessary when speaking of chisel grinds.

I thought we already gave up on this and were talking about Lansky systems now?

mtangent · Mar 12, 2015

DAVE_M said:
He does agree with me and I agree with him, because we really aren't agreeing on anything. We are just trying to point out, to you, that using the word inclusive is unnecessary when speaking of chisel grinds.

I thought we already gave up on this and were talking about Lansky systems now?

Quoted for posterity.
Why would any body take correction from an individual who says "He does agree with me and I agree with him, because we really aren't agreeing on anything"?

DAVE_M · Mar 12, 2015

mtangent said:
Quoted for posterity.
Why would any body take correction from an individual who says "He does agree with me and I agree with him, because we really aren't agreeing on anything"?

Quote me all you want. I don't retract my statements. You are calling me a troll when I'm discussing the topic. You, on the other hand, are quoting me for reasons that have nothing to do with the discussion topic. If anyone is trolling, it's you, boy.

RX-79G · Mar 12, 2015

egally08 said:
Maybe I missed it, but please show me where Dave said, when speaking in general terms and grouping other knives together, inclusive wouldn't be appropriate.

Here:

Dave_M said:
If I told you my knife edge is 30 degrees inclusive, one could deduce that I have some sort of grind with a sharpened edge on both sides.

and here:

Dave_M said:
We are speaking of an inclusive angle, which describes the sharpening angle of two sides of a blade.

Dave appears to be saying that it isn't even the angles involved, it is whether your sharpen it on both sides. So Emerson's non-chisel ground knives one would not refer to their inclusive edge angle.

toker · Mar 12, 2015

RX-79G said:
So Emerson's non-chisel ground knives one would not refer to their inclusive edge angle.

- Emerson's non-chisel ground knives would refer to the inclusive angle. It's usually 23°-28° on one side and 15° on the other side.