INFI??? Second thoughts.

komondor said:
I have two Busses. A safe queen and a user. The user is a FBMLE. Great knife, but it has a fairly thick grind. I expect I can chop with it into pretty much anything fibrous without damaging the edge. So far I have seen no edge deformation and it is still very sharp. (Not re-sharpened yet.)

However, it appears that thinner ground Busses-- like the Sarsquatch-- do not survive heavy duty chopping so well.

There appears to be more than a few threads concerning thinner ground Busses and edge damage from serious use.

The lateral strength of the Busses is legendary. But I wonder about edge strength with thinner grinds.

Anyone else been wondering about this lately?
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It's a combination of people thinning the edge profile down too far and chopping frozen wood.

It's sort of like performance car forums... lots of people blowing their motors this time of year. Excessively lean tune + really cold air = kaboom!

Too thin of an edge profile + wood that is frozen rock hard = edge roll...boom?
 
The only other problem with your "confirmation bias" theory is there are plenty of posts here from people who have spent $500+ on a Strider and are pissed with quality control. Now if INFI was just a gimmick I would think we would have a few posts about a $350 Busse. Show me the Busse owners who have anything bad to say about their knives. I have yet to meet one.
 
komondor said:
I have two Busses. A safe queen and a user. The user is a FBMLE. Great knife, but it has a fairly thick grind. I expect I can chop with it into pretty much anything fibrous without damaging the edge. So far I have seen no edge deformation and it is still very sharp. (Not re-sharpened yet.)

However, it appears that thinner ground Busses-- like the Sarsquatch-- do not survive heavy duty chopping so well.

There appears to be more than a few threads concerning thinner ground Busses and edge damage from serious use.

The lateral strength of the Busses is legendary. But I wonder about edge strength with thinner grinds.

Anyone else been wondering about this lately?
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If you follow those threads more carefully, they are not a factory grind. The failures were in reground blades. Just about the only edge chips were on reprofiled edges, taken a bit too thin. I have seen one factory grind chip, but that same knife had been chopping a thick heavy animal bone.


The important part, is that those knives were covered under warranty.


Another guy who used to wine about edge problems would sharpen down to 10 degrees or so per side then apply lateral stress by boring holes in hardwood, etc. He was mad about very small edge rolling (that is down to razor profile, or less). The setting for sharpening razors on some fixed sharpening systems is 17 degrees. I have found that on my slicers that 20 degrees per side becomes a bit delicate, if any lateral stress is applied.


Infi is not magical. It can be broken, and it can be rolled, and in a few cases chipped.

Infi will take so much abuse it is almost "magical" when you have broken quite a few other knives, doing much easier and less abusive tasks. I have to admit, I some times do want to break one.

You have to sharpen it as well. Just like normal steel. It will scratch just like normal steel. The edge will roll just like normal steel.

It is just tough stuff.

The heat treat is what makes it great. Jerry's knives in A2 are plenty tough, and have the same great warranty. The Busse family knives (Scrapyard, and Swamprat) all have great warranties. They are made of different steels, all with excellent heat treats. Each of the different steels they use, all perform better with the great heat treats that Busse does.

I like all kinds of knives. Heck, I still buy cheap Cold Steel stuff every once in a while (when I want another folder, since there is no Busse folder out yet)

I still want other knives, made out out of different steels, by different makers, custom and production.

People will hate on all kinds of stuff. Glocks are plastic..............1911's cost too much. Custom 1911's cost way too much. AR-15's cost too much, and custom AR-15's cost way to much.


People buy more expensive products every day. Just human nature. If the more expensive products don't work, or don't stack up, word gets out.

INFI stacks up!
 
Longtrang said:
The only other problem with your "confirmation bias" theory is there are plenty of posts here from people who have spent $500+ on a Strider and are pissed with quality control. Now if INFI was just a gimmick I would think we would have a few posts about a $350 Busse. Show me the Busse owners who have anything bad to say about their knives. I have yet to meet one.
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They are out there. Not as many as there would be if there was nothing to the steel.
 
kkj87a said:
yep they sure have hooked alot of suckers with their crappy marketing plan... but not me. not saying they arent good knives im sure they are but you gotta ask if its too good? like would you really want a knife you never have to sharpen... leaving you without the skills of a normal knife owner. also what if something happened to the knife? what if somone took it or it got lost or "confiscated"? i wouldnt buy crap but i wouldnt blow all my money either. the point is for this tool to do what you need it to do... if a knife 1/3rd the price gets the job done why blow your money. im a bad consumer :)
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This same thought process applies to firearms, optics and just about any product that is marketed. Why pay for a Kimber or other high quality rifle when a Savage shoots as good? Why pay for Leica or Zeiss binoculars when Bushnell will get you by? There is something called pride of ownership. If you can afford something nice and you want it, you are not a sucker.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
John Ruskin
 
UffDa said:
This same thought process applies to firearms, optics and just about any product that is marketed. Why pay for a Kimber or other high quality rifle when a Savage shoots as good? Why pay for Leica or Zeiss binoculars when Bushnell will get you by? There is something called pride of ownership. If you can afford something nice and you want it, you are not a sucker.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
John Ruskin
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i like this guy. :thumbup:

as with many products, you reach a point of diminished returns. no different whether we are talking guns, lights, optics, or knives.

at an undeterminable point, increases in cost are met only incrementally with increases in quality/performance/whatever. some of us are willing to pay for that incremental increase, some are not.

i like leica optics. ive looked through many brands. zeiss, swarovski, nikon, stiener, and a bunch more. for me, the leicas satisified my eye relief best, and for my eyes, the light gathering was best. i also like the styling, size, and feel.

if i were to compare only the glass of my leicas with the same size glass from zeiss, i would bet i could not tell the difference. but when looking at the whole package, i can tell every time.

a busse knife will not give you the best results in every category. it will give you outstanding performance when considering the whole package. its not the toughest, easiest to sharpen, most durable, etc. it is a great balance of all the categories of what determines a knife's quality.

what you will find, is people who tend not to like busse knives dislike the ergonomics, or the thickness, or the grind, or the cost, or the marketing. few complain of poor quality, and those complaints are readily handled by customer service.

what they often don't tell you is busse knives come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and thicknesses. grinds are easily altered. and high costs tend to be associated with the secondary market. there are no doubt busse knives that are very expensive from the factory, but the majority are priced similar to your average strider or crk. and take a look at spyderco's msrp's. you will be very surprised at the difference in price between msrp and on line dealer prices.

and the marketing? its meant to be fun, as our hobbies should be. pack mentality? brainwashing? don't know, don't care. i like it. i like the friendships ive made, and the dynamic in the forums (mostly).

if you go looking for a reason to dislike something, you will most certainly find it.
 
steelhog said:
I find myself wondering that maby they just have the best business/marketing plan. The reason I say this is INFI is kind of a mystery a holy grail, and the specal heat treatment also. When I buy a knife in say VG10 I can look up the specs and even see charts on its performance in graphs. By the time I look up the specs my mind is alredy made up on what it will do. I am not aware of such a thing for INFI. And yes, if I had a special steel/heat treatment HELL yes I would keep it a secret. But still, with no data on exactly what it is the only thoughts on the steel are what you find out for your self. I just wonder if some one took say A2 a super thick blade and told you that it was a one of a kind special steel, had lots of fame, and was also a special heat treatment I wonder if I would think it was amazing also. I may be the only one who basicly has his mind made up before even useing a kinfe, buy I dont think so. Tell me your thoughts.
Click to expand...

The heat treat on INFI is not a secret or a mystery. Jerry has posted about the process several times in answering questions on the forum. And, yes, it's about a good heat treat as you can get, and as you know, heat treat makes a bigger difference than type of steel. Not just a good heat treat, but how the heat treat is matched to the steel. Busse just does a great job with it. The specs of INFI steel are also not a secret, and I see someone has already posted them in this thread. INFI is cool because although it is not a stainless steel it does not rust easily, and because it has a crazy ability to be both hard (58-60 Rc) and soft (edge tends to roll not chip, when abused, making sharpening easier). They heat treat INFI to a whopping 950 degrees, and employ a 3-day multi-cycle dry cryogenic treatment. The cryogenics improves the steel, and Busse does it the right way. Below is Jerry expounding on their heat treat method:

"Busse has been doing cryo since the early 1980's. Back then it was a very primitive process involving an old cooler, dry ice and about a gallon of acetone. Process: pack the blades in dry ice, pour the acetone over the ice to speed the evaporation process, and hit somewhere around the -190 degree mark. Do a normalizing temper (approx. 350 - 450) and voila! Prehistoric Cryo!

In the late eighties we began the employment of a deep cryo treatment (-300/320 degrees) which was done in a dry, controlled, atmosphere. This process allows us to take our blades down to temp. over the course of 10 hours hold them at temp. (-300 degrees) for approx 50 hours, and then bring them back up to room temp. over the course of the next 10 hours at which point they receive 3 more, individualized, oven tempers. This is the same process that we employ to this day.

Some makers are out there just plunging their blades into liquid nitrogen which can shock the steel so dramatically that microscopic cracks and fissures can form that could cause massive blade failure in the field under heavy and/or light use. That is why it is crucial that the blades be cooled slowly and brought back to room temperature slowly and then normalized with a few oven tempers for stress relief.

Of course there are also some makers that I know of who claim to employ cryogenics because they stick their knives in the freezer over night. Scary! Alway ask the maker to give as much detail of his cryo process as possible.

Knowledge is power! Arm yourself!

Yours in Nuclear Cryogenics,

Jerry Busse"
 
I've had several big Busse knives and they have always taken a heck of a beating, MUCH more damage resistant in my experience than other big production knives. Although the finish on the combat-grade models gets worn pretty quick.

The only reason I sold them is that the handle ergonomics never worked that well for me -- it's a personal preference thing. Also, I got to beat on the good & hard, then sell them for a little less - or even more! - than I paid for them. So hey why not get one that looks appealing and try it out, effectively for close to free?

I don't imagine that you could be disappointed with the quality of the product, and if the style isn't for you then you can always sell it pretty quick.
 
detractors are always present but the great majority of users attest to quality of busse products.if his track record was'nt so great people would'nt be buying his products. sure i can take a 15$ cold chisel & cut thru pipes but will that chisel chop wood & cut meat.the prepondrance of experience attests to busse quality.yes there are plenty of other good knives out there but busse would'nt have the following without deserving same.hopefully this discussion wo'nt go on forever, if you do'nt like busse it's simple spend your money elsewhere.
 
The Chef said:
Yeah you could ask but he won't, I tried, Jerry on the other hand will gladly slap a set of red grips on a outlaw, blow off the dust and tack $200 on it for you for Christmas. :p
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Jerry will also give away over $12,000 in knives and credits to his customers, people will complain about the high prices but forget about the great contests
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703385

Or how about taking all his customers out to eat on Friday and saturday of Blade, door prizes on Saturday of approx $2000-$3000.

You don't see many/any other makers/manufacturers doing this, even the one's that charge comparable prices.

Eric
 
Eric Isaacson said:
Jerry will also give away over $12,000 in knives and credits to his customers, people will complain about the high prices but forget about the great contests
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703385

Or how about taking all his customers out to eat on Friday and saturday of Blade, door prizes on Saturday of approx $2000-$3000.

You don't see many/any other makers/manufacturers doing this, even the one's that charge comparable prices.

Eric
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Exactly. :thumbup:

I know 1st hand that Jerry takes excellent care of his customers. :D :cool:
 
Eric Isaacson said:
Jerry will also give away over $12,000 in knives and credits to his customers, people will complain about the high prices but forget about the great contests
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703385

Or how about taking all his customers out to eat on Friday and saturday of Blade, door prizes on Saturday of approx $2000-$3000.

You don't see many/any other makers/manufacturers doing this, even the one's that charge comparable prices.

Eric
Click to expand...

WELL SAID MY FRIEND! AND THAT'S WHY WHERE HERE! BUSSE'S ROCK!!! :thumbup:
 
Balislinger said:
The heat treat on INFI is not a secret or a mystery. Jerry has posted about the process several times in answering questions on the forum. And, yes, it's about a good heat treat as you can get, and as you know, heat treat makes a bigger difference than type of steel. Not just a good heat treat, but how the heat treat is matched to the steel. Busse just does a great job with it. The specs of INFI steel are also not a secret, and I see someone has already posted them in this thread. INFI is cool because although it is not a stainless steel it does not rust easily, and because it has a crazy ability to be both hard (58-60 Rc) and soft (edge tends to roll not chip, when abused, making sharpening easier). They heat treat INFI to a whopping 950 degrees, and employ a 3-day multi-cycle dry cryogenic treatment. The cryogenics improves the steel, and Busse does it the right way. Below is Jerry expounding on their heat treat method:

"Busse has been doing cryo since the early 1980's. Back then it was a very primitive process involving an old cooler, dry ice and about a gallon of acetone. Process: pack the blades in dry ice, pour the acetone over the ice to speed the evaporation process, and hit somewhere around the -190 degree mark. Do a normalizing temper (approx. 350 - 450) and voila! Prehistoric Cryo!

In the late eighties we began the employment of a deep cryo treatment (-300/320 degrees) which was done in a dry, controlled, atmosphere. This process allows us to take our blades down to temp. over the course of 10 hours hold them at temp. (-300 degrees) for approx 50 hours, and then bring them back up to room temp. over the course of the next 10 hours at which point they receive 3 more, individualized, oven tempers. This is the same process that we employ to this day.

Some makers are out there just plunging their blades into liquid nitrogen which can shock the steel so dramatically that microscopic cracks and fissures can form that could cause massive blade failure in the field under heavy and/or light use. That is why it is crucial that the blades be cooled slowly and brought back to room temperature slowly and then normalized with a few oven tempers for stress relief.

Of course there are also some makers that I know of who claim to employ cryogenics because they stick their knives in the freezer over night. Scary! Alway ask the maker to give as much detail of his cryo process as possible.

Knowledge is power! Arm yourself!

Yours in Nuclear Cryogenics,

Jerry Busse"
Click to expand...


Where are all you guys that don't believe in cryo now? :p


Oh, and steelhog, your name is steelhog and you don't own a busse :eek:
 
After using some Busse knives for a while now. I have come to the conclusion that there is certainly nothing magical about Infi. It remains one of the best knife steel currently available for many applications, nothing more and nothing less. Someday it will be improved on or surpassed in quality by another so called super steel and but it will remain one of the best knife steels around.

The best knife must have many qualities but must include availability and affordability to those who need it. For some it meets those goals, for some there are better knives than Busse.
 
I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Busse. I had a FFBM and it came very sharp even though the edge was obtusely ground. (Not like a fixed blade Strider. Love them but many of their facotry edges are hammers not knives.) Even obtusely ground the Busse edge rolled when chopping wood. I do not know the type of wood but it was not cold out and I did not reprofile the blade and it still rolled. It happens ... no biggie but I do not see Infi as that much better than other steels for MOST uses.
I think the reason Strider and Busse and even Chris Reeve knives get the positives and negatives they do has to do with the high cost. Some people would not be satified if it was a light saber and others believe that because this knife is 500.00 dollars it must be better than a 1095 properly heated 100 dollar knife. As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
TC
 
Eric Isaacson said:
Jerry will also give away over $12,000 in knives and credits to his customers, people will complain about the high prices but forget about the great contests
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703385

Or how about taking all his customers out to eat on Friday and saturday of Blade, door prizes on Saturday of approx $2000-$3000.

You don't see many/any other makers/manufacturers doing this, even the one's that charge comparable prices.

Eric
Click to expand...

:yawn: Yep marketing genius, I agree. Oprah gives away cars and has ardent followers too...if you like her great, if you like Busse great, rich people should give back to the poor that support them, the bottom line is that those knives are pricey, the sales is spotty (get a new HellRazor model right now from the manufacturer, oh wait you can't) and the forced rarity it supplies is an awesome gimmick.

It's true the knives rock, the service is amazing and he's a great salesman but caveat emptor is that you pay an extra 200 bucks for every time the tag LE is attached to something that gets a special color g10 or a thicker blade. See what I am saying? pricey, not all of us are hardened hogs of the round trough of oinkiness, willing to sacrifice quality of life to say they have a NO-E BM magical +2 sword of swine. :rolleyes:
 
Lets see...
My Dogfather has better retention than my Becker BK-9. INFI has better everything than SR-77. So INFI is probaby better than 1095 :D

BUUUT, my Fehrman holds a better edge than both. My First Strike is probably my favorite larger knife.

Still waiting to get funds for a Busse.

I like all knives regardless of steel. If they work, they work. If I have the money, Ill buy them.
 
I've found in life you pretty much get what you pay for. Same with zeiss,Empire rifles, custom guns, or any other high quality product. So if you want to go cheap have at it. Just buy a whole box of them and tear them up at will. Or use them for awhile and then sell them. I'm curious as to how much return on the dollar spent you'll get back. Or just buy one great product and not have to worry about getting your money back if you decide to sell it later, used or not. I bought a accuracy International 300mag in 1990 for 4000.00. I could sell that same rifle now for 6000 or more. You want quality or more $$ on your return, you gotta spend it. Besides you only live once right, go for the gusto I say. :)
 
A lot of people are saying Busse is overpriced, are they?

Does anyone know how much Jerry is paying for INFI? How much is rent/mortgage, employee salaries/benefits, cost of all the equipment used to make the knives? Without knowing all this, it is hard to say if they are truly overpriced, but easy to say if all your doing is comparing them to another brand name.
 
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