Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?

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Sebenza4ever

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Hi All,
1- Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?
2- Why are top custom knives still being made using ats34 if S30v is available and a better steel?
3-I am just assuming its a better steel. Is it?
 
ATS34 and 154CM are VERY close. I don't know the slight difference off the top of my head.

S30V is much more expensive than 154CM/ATS34, that is why not everyone uses it.
 
S30V is also more demanding to heat treat. And there have been accusations that S30V is to brittle (I don't know if that's true or just rummors started by people who can't heat treat it).

There's no one magic, ultimate steel that optimizes all variables.
 
Sebenza4ever said:
Hi All,
1- Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?
2- Why are top custom knives still being made using ats34 if S30v is available and a better steel?
3-I am just assuming its a better steel. Is it?
Click to expand...
1- Technically, they're very, very slightly different. RWL-34 (a Sweedish(?) powder steel) can also be grouped with these two. The end result (ie: our knife blades) are similar enough to be considered totally interchangable. The specific manufacturers and their heat treat (and cryo treat) make a bigger difference than which steel is used.

2- S30V is the current golden boy of knife steels, but there's absoutely nothing wrong with 154CM/ATS-34. Saying 154CM/ATS-34 is obsolete is like saying your 2004 Porsche GT is obsolete because the 2005 model is out. Plus, as Gollnick mentioned, S30V is more demanding to heat treat, which might be beyond some makers' capabilities equipment-wise. S30V is also apparently a b*tch to finish due to its high abrasion resistance and specific grain structure, while 154CM/ATS-34 polishes up very nicely. There's a reason you don't see many S30V (or S60V or S90V) blades mirror polished. Custom knives will often be these "older" steels because they're much easier to work with, yet are still make great blades.

3- Makers have used both ATS-34 and 154CM on the same knives on many occcassions. Older Benchmade AFCKs, Microtech SOCOMs, Woodards, and others were ATS-34 while newer ones are 154CM. This was due to available supply (and aparently at that time, Crucible was slack on 154CM quality), so they were using the Japanese metal. The supply/quality of 154CM is back on track now, so you see a lot more of it now, but there's still a lot of ATS-34 floating around waiting to be used.
 
Planterz ,
Great information, Thank you.
I was wondering why I see custom knives worth 1000 up to 2000$, the handel material is top but the blade is 154cm or ats34. I was asking myself, It is certainly not because they are cutting the cost so why dont they use s30v.

You asnwered my question.
 
Sebenza4ever said:
Planterz ,
Great information, Thank you.
I was wondering why I see custom knives worth 1000 up to 2000$, the handel material is top but the blade is 154cm or ats34. I was asking myself, It is certainly not because they are cutting the cost so why dont they use s30v.

You asnwered my question.
Click to expand...
Not only do they work easier, ATS34 and 154CM take a much better finish.
 
Plus the majority of it is simple preference. You'll see insanely expensive knives with 1050, 440C, whatever, it's really what the maker likes.
 
Sebenza4ever said:
Planterz ,
Great information, Thank you.
I was wondering why I see custom knives worth 1000 up to 2000$, the handel material is top but the blade is 154cm or ats34. I was asking myself, It is certainly not because they are cutting the cost so why dont they use s30v.

You asnwered my question.
Click to expand...

In your average BIG knife - like a 10" Bowie, the price difference between ats-34/154CM, S30V, 5160, 0-1, L6, etc. is maybe $30-80 - assuming none of the metal has been reclaimed. The only materials that really stick out are Titanium(not likely to find it in a bowie) and Damascus(even pre-made ingots 1/4" X 2" X 15" go for as high as $180). The best materials to make a knife out of aren't necessarily the most expensive. L6 makes GREAT Bowies, and the L6 in my personal Bowie cost me nothing - It was found in a saw mill just hanging around rusting. Just like with any art, you are paying for the sum of all the parts, plus the labor and creation and what the market might bear.
ATS-34 and 154CM polish up very well, as does 440C. SO many knife makers whom do custom work as presentation or show knives use these metals.

WYK
 
440C is a great steel. It's not the next-phase, new-wave, dance-craze -- but it's still rock-and-roll to me.

Among other things, nothing polishes like 440C. Talk about mirror-polish... 440C is the mirror steel.

It's highly rust-resistant. And it takes and retains a great edge. There's nothing wrong with 440C.


Don't get me wrong, S30V is a great steel. The metalurgist who confected it spoke at the Oregon Knive Collector's Show just a few weeks ago. His presentation was one of the highlights of the show for me. S30V is truly a steel that takes full advantage of Crucible's unique capablities and acheives an optimization that has not been possible until now. But I'm not going to rule out every other steel because of it. 440C and ATS-34/154CM remain great blade steels.
 
S4E, to answer your underlying question. Not every one wants S30V in their knives. Some folks have personal preferrences, some have isuues sharpening it. some have performance issues. Personally, I miss BG42. ( I was going to say something ,but it would be off topic)
 
Many makers use ATS-34 or 154CM because they have a lot of experience with those steels. When the maker gets to know the characteristics of a certain steel, he feels more comfortable working with it than with something he has never used before.
 
WYK said:
The only materials that really stick out are Titanium(not likely to find it in a bowie) and Damascus(even pre-made ingots 1/4" X 2" X 15" go for as high as $180).
Click to expand...
I've seen mosaic damascus patterns that took over 40 hours to make! I have no idea what a billet would cost. :eek:

The Crucible seminar that Chuck Gollnick referenced was very informative. The steel I was most excited about was the new CPM 154CM. This is 154CM with a little vanadium created using Crucibles particle metallurgy process. The finished result gets 1-2 points Rc harder and cuts 25% longer than regular 154CM using the same heat treat specifications! It also takes a very nice hand finish. I think it is going to be an excellent knife steel.
 
A lot has been said already, but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway. ATS-34 and 154-CM were copies of each other (can't remember which was a copy of which, somebody probably said before, I really need to read before I post :) ), so they are basically the same, though originally it was said that the ATS-34 was higher quality, but now the quality level is about the same, maybe slightly in favor of 154-CM.

The main reason people still use 154-CM is because S30V is harder to grind and harder to finish, and when it comes to performance, it's also harder to sharpen (because of vanadium carbides), so I don't think it could really be called "better" unless you're only reason for it being better is for edge retention. Of course, it's also a little harder to heat treat and a little more expensive, though the expense doesn't matter as much for custom makers.

And like it was said before, just about any and all problems with 154-CM would be solved with the CPM process, I'm really excited about the CPM-154. It will still be easy to grind and finish, take a great edge, and have greater edge retention. 154-CM is about the same toughness as S30v also, so after it is a powder metallurgy steel, it should be even tougher. For a guy who prefers ease of sharpening over edge retention, 154-CM would be just about the ultimate steel. It should come very close to S30v when it comes to edge retention though.
 
The story, as I remember it, went like this. Loveless found out about 154CM back in the 70s and used it on his blades, which people loved. The blades held an edge longer than other stainless knives at the time. Other custom knifemakers started using 154CM. One main reason Loveless and many other knifemakers liked 154CM, was because it was vacuum melted and a very clean steel.

Some years later, the U.S. factory that made 154CM stopped vacuum melting it. A steel company in Japan created ATS34(nearly identical, if not identical in composition to 154CM) and they did vacuum melt it. Knifemakers were again happy.

At some point recently, U.S. steel manufacturers started making vacuum melted 154CM again.

For the record, I like BG42 better than either ATS34 or 154CM, although any of them make a fine blade when heat treated properly.
 
"It's highly rust-resistant. "

Hi Gollnick,

Is it OK to use 440 C in sea water at the beach or do I have to get a H1?

Thanks
 
Gollnick said:
...there have been accusations that S30V is to brittle
Click to expand...
More so that ATS-34? I have not heard that, which makers are taking that line?

I would expect to see a lot of ATS-34 for awhile as people run through old stock. Plus it is also very costly to keep changing steels as new ones come out.

As for heat treat, one of the promoted design aspects was ease of heat treatment. Phil Wilson talked about that for an early article he wrote on S30V.

Maybe they are simply satisfied with the performance of ATS-34 and the cost increase to moving to S30V isn't a functional gain.


-Cliff
 
The question here is why many high end and custom knives are still using 154CM and ATS-34 instead of S30V (or S90V).

Obviously, when it comes to "high end" the actual cost of the chunk of steel isn't really a factor to the purchaser. Especially with custom knives. I think it has more to do with the maker's familiarity with the steel and its workability. I mentioned above that S30V might be more difficult to heat treat and is definitely more difficult to grind and finish. There's much more to a knife blade than just the steel it's made from. I guarantee that a well ground, properly heat/cryo treated 154CM blade will outcut a badly ground, improperly heat treated S30V blade any day of the week, and look better too.
 
From what I understand they are the same thing. Just that 154CM is the American made version of ATS34.
 
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