Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?

[Gollnick]

Hi All,
1- Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?
2- Why are top custom knives still being made using ats34 if S30v is available and a better steel?
3-I am just assuming its a better steel. Is it?

Mr. Stamp,

I will remind you, please, of the original questions that started this thread.

Specifically, the question I was addressing was #2, "Why are top custom knives still being made using ats34 if S30v is available and a better steel?" There is no one single reason, of course. I offered one possible reason that I am aware of. Several others have been offered here. That's what this thread is about. Please don't try to turn it into a shouting match about anything else.

 

[Satrang]

For information. I heard from various makers that Mr. Barber got back from the Oregon Show and turned in his resignation at Crucible and is going to work for a marine type materials distributor. Too bad. He was a good asset to the knife community. He will be missed.

 

[HoB]

Mr. Gollnick I have a problem with the fact that you are putting Cliff Stamp down on his responses, and I have the feeling that your responses to his questions were colored with previous issues with him. To take that by your word, you said in your first post:

S30V is also more demanding to heat treat. And there have been accusations that S30V is to brittle (I don't know if that's true or just rummors started by people who can't heat treat it).

"There have been accusations" is not an overly precise statement and I am not surprised at a question towards clarification of this. You respond with:

Actually, it was the gentleman from Crucible who noted that in his presentation. But, he felt that any excess brittleness was the result of improper heat treatment.

I have trouble believing that a representative from Crucible would call his own steel as brittle. This statement is clearly taken out of context and it really doesn't matter who said it, if it doesn't help clarifing your statement. If it is the heat treat especially as Satrang stated in the early experiments with S30V than your response does not help any to answer the initial question, why ATS-34 is still used if it is inferior to S30V since we still don't know how ATS-34 stacks up against S30V when they are both properly heat treated. Lastly, your first statement did not help the discussion as it seems (from other posts that cite the *same* reference as you) that the statement was incorrect. (That it is more demanding to heat treat).

Please note that I am not making an own statement, I simply trying to analyse what I read in this thread. I think much of this "discussion" which borders a flaming war could have been prevented if you had taken a little bit more time in your first response to Mr. Stamp instead of trying to brush him off with a statement that was clearly intended to forstall any further questions. If this is indeed a discussion board critical questions should be allowed if not encouraged. However, it seems that there is clearly some history between you and Mr. Stamp, and I really don't like how you seem to blame this shouting match on him, even though I don't agree with his style of response either.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

I have trouble believing that a representative from Crucible would call his own steel as brittle.

I was there and heard the same thing. But your quote is not the complete quote. It was to the effect of:
S30V can be brittle if not heat treated correctly.

Why is hard to understand someone from Crucible would say this?

 

[Gollnick]

Mr. Gollnick I have a problem with the fact that you are putting Cliff Stamp down on his responses, and I have the feeling that your responses to his questions were colored with previous issues with him. To take that by your word, you said in your first post:



"There have been accusations" is not an overly precise statement and I am not surprised at a question towards clarification of this.

Listen carefully: Polio is making a comeback in some countries!

Why? We've had a cheap, easy, highly effective vaccine for generations now.

Simple. Rummors has started among some people in some countries that the vaccine is harmful, does not actually prevent Polio, that it causes sterility, and that it is part of a big and evil genocide scheme.

Of course that rummor is not true. But it does not matter that it is not true. The rummor is the reason that parents are not allowing their children to receive the Polio vaccine and why those children are getting Polio.

If you pose the quesiton, "Why aren't all these people taking the Polio vaccine?" and I answer, "Because there are rummors that the vaccine causes sterility and is part of an evil genocide scheme," then my statement isn't false because the rummor it cites is false. The rummor is false, yes. But the fact that this false rummor is causing some parents to withhold the vaccine from their children is true. To simply dismiss the rummor because it is so obviously false doesn't solve the problem, does it?

We sit around here all day and argue about the validity of the rummor, but that won't help, will it?

One of the original questions that started this thread was essentially "Why aren't all knife makers using S30V?" There are a number of reasons for this, of course. Several other people listed some of them, cost, difficulty in polishing, etc. I mearly added one more that I had recently become aware of from what I considered a reliable source, a source whom I felt reliable enough that I did not have to launch a FBI probe into.

 

[Gollnick]

I was there and heard the same thing. But your quote is not the complete quote. It was to the effect of:
S30V can be brittle if not heat treated correctly.

Why is hard to understand someone from Crucible would say this?

Thank you.

I have here a bottle of furniture cleaner. It's made by Dep Products Company. And it says right on it: Warning: Harmful or Fatal if Swallowed.

Why would Dep call their own product harmful and fatal? That's not good marketing, is it? I mean I want it to clean my desk, not kill me!

But notice that it doesn't say, "Warning: Harmful or Fatal." No. It says, "Harmful or Fatal IF SWALLOWED." If used properly, it will leave your desk nice and clean, your air with a pleasant lemon lilt, and you very much alive and well to enjoy it all.

 

[HoB]

Chuck Bee: I just checked and double checked: MY quote of Mr. Gollnick is complete. Mr. Gollnicks quote of Mr. Barber is apparently not. Which seems to be the reason why this thread got so lengthy.

I have no trouble understanding why someone from Crucible would make a statement like you say he did. I do have trouble understanding why someone from Crucible would say something that Mr. Gollnick stated in his first post, which generated Mr. Stamps first question and I think rightfully so. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gollnick's second post clearly implies that Mr. Barber never felt that the steel is too brittle, since the excess brittleness is due (according to that post) to heat treat not the steel itself. I still don't see how any of this answers the initial question?

 

[Gollnick]

S30V is also more demanding to heat treat. And there have been accusations that S30V is to brittle (I don't know if that's true or just rummors started by people who can't heat treat it).

There's no one magic, ultimate steel that optimizes all variables.

Notice, please, that in my first post I did not quote Mr. Barber. If I'm not quoting him, how can I be mis-quoting him? If I'm not quoting him, how can the quote be incomplete?

I particularly did not quote him or present this accusation as anything more than an unsubstantiated rummor for the very reason that I did not want to add credence to it. Notice that I immediately follow it with "I don't know if that's true or just rummors started by people who can't heat treat it."

I never said that I myself felt that S30V is brittle. Truth be known, I only own one S30V knife, it is an art knife and so I have no intention to determine if it's brittle or not. I never said that it is a fact that S30V is brittle. I never said that it was my experience that S30V is brittle. I never said that it was my opinion that S30V is brittle. I said that the fact that there have been accusations that S30V is brittle may be one reason why some makers are not using it. I stand by that statement entirely.

I only brought Mr. Barber's name into the matter, and then doing so only very carefully to fully explain the context, when Mr. Stamp jumped all over me demanding to know names of makers who had said that.

In this thread, I have been very careful to protect the good name and reputation of Crucible, S30V, and Mr. Barber.

 

[HoB]

Because in your second post you were CLAIMING that you had that information from Mr. Barber and you went on how everybody should believe what somebody with a degree is saying. The problem is only that you weren't relaying properly what that guy with the degree had said and then you go on blaming Cliff who has a history of getting into arguments for calling you on it. THAT is a behavior I just felt improper and I felt I wanted to speak up on it.

 

[Gollnick]

Because in your second post you were CLAIMING that you had that information from Mr. Barber and you went on how everybody should believe what somebody with a degree is saying. The problem is only that you weren't relaying properly what that guy with the degree had said and then you go on blaming Cliff who has a history of getting into arguments for calling you on it. THAT is a behavior I just felt improper and I felt I wanted to speak up on it.

There is only one problem with your unfounded accusation. Do a search and you will find that, depite almost 12,500 posts here, I am one of the few persons on this forum who does NOT have a history of getting into arguments with Mr. Stamp.

 

[HoB]

Well then I appologize for my accusation. And I do mean my appologies sincerely. I had no intention of stirring up trouble. I was simply following the thread and did not like how the tone of the thread was changing nor could I identify Cliff Stamp from his posts as the single source for the change.

 

[Gollnick]

For information. I heard from various makers that Mr. Barber got back from the Oregon Show and turned in his resignation at Crucible and is going to work for a marine type materials distributor. Too bad. He was a good asset to the knife community. He will be missed.

I hope that that turns out to be just a rummor too.

I remember at the show during his presentation thinking how dedicated he obviously was to his work and he spoke highly of Crucible as a company. I remember thinking how delighted Crucible must be to have an employee who is obviously quite competent and also do dedicated to his work and to his company.

 

[Gollnick]

Well then I appologize for my accusation. And I do mean my appologies sincerely. I had no intention of stirring up trouble. I was simply following the thread and did not like how the tone of the thread was changing nor could I identify Cliff Stamp from his posts as the single source for the change.

Thank you.

Hopefully, we can just let this matter drop.

 

[conan]

Crucible specifically developed CPMS30V to be a tough, stainless knife blade steel. Our research people worked on this for approximately 18 months. Feedback from most custom makers and production companies would suggest we accomplished our goal. However, CPMS30V does have one or two shortcomings. It is more difficult to finish than ATS34 and 154CM and it does cost more.

Because we do listen to custom knife makers, we are now offering CPM154. CPM154 is our attempt at offering a premium stainless knife blade steel that is more user friendly - easier to finish - easier to grind and polish. Because we use the CPM process to make CPM154 it should also outperform conventional 154CM. Before we will promote CPM154 as a success(achieving our intended goal) - we wait to hear from the custom makers who are using it. If they have good things to say and endorse the grade we will forge ahead. If feedback is negative we will go back to the drawing board and make the necessary adjustments to try and meet the custom makers' needs and suggestions.

Also, based on our experience with CPMS30V, it is still a better grade than conventional 154CM and better than CPM154 but, as mentioned above, is difficult to finish.

ATS34 is also a great stainless knife blade steel and will always be a main-stay in the stainless knife blade steel family.

On the topic of heat treatment, it doesn't matter what steel we are talking about, if it is not heat treated correctly it will not attain its full potential.

Lastly, 154CM and ATS34 are basically the same steel. They are both very good stainless knife blade steels.

Based on the feed back we have received from the knife making community, CPMS30V outperforms 154CM. If a knife maker is still using 154CM rather than CPMS30V it is because 154CM is good enough for the type and style knife being made and it costs less than CPMS30V and is easier to work with.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Steve Hayden]

Crucible originally modified 440C to the 14/4 CrMo to add red hardening properties to jet engine turbines. They called it 440 Mod. This became 154 CM. Hitachi brought out ATS 34 in the great Japanese tradition of copying and counterfieting.

The charpy C-notch values published by Crucible for S30V are the same as for 154 CM/ATS 34. They make the point that S30V is 4 times as tough in transverse impacts.

Any steel with high Cr, V, W and/or MO requires more attention to the tempering end of heat treatment. Anything at or above the 1% range for V, W and Mo should benefit by triple tempering for two hours each. I include D2 with this category. High Cr requires at least two two hour tempers.

Soak times are also very important when you start to get substantial transition metal carbides. The non Fe carbides should have the time to dissolve with the exception of the Vanadium. Cr, Mo and W carbides don't dissolve until the temperature gets above 1450°F and according to most steel manufacturers require 30 minutes or longer at their hardening temperature. VCs don't start to dissolve until above 1900°F, but don't need to, as they stay extremely fine-grained and function to pin grain boundaries, limiting grain growth in the other carbides as they precipitate during quench. The VC and especially VCN xls ( in the case of S30V) can be as fine as the 10 micron range.

One thing about S30V I haven't seen mentioned here is that the superfine grain size allows it to take an very fine polished edge.

 

[GarageBoy]

Hmmmy S30V PMillie doesnt take that fine of an edge, though the bevels are hella shiny.

 

[Steve Hayden]

There's more than one way to sharpen a knife.

 

[Dalko]

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Note: This message is mainly addressed to Conan. What is being discussed is off-topic and I wanted to send him a PM or an email, but it seems I'm not allowed to do so. I apologize for that but I have no other way to contact Conan.
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Conan,

since you are a metallurgist and seem to work for Crucible, I would like to know what steel companies and especially Crucible are waiting for to design a steel that could rival the infamous INFI steel from Busse Combat. I think the knife community would be very grateful to have such a steel available to the custom market. Just as a reminder, here are the main properties of INFI:

-Very high impact resistance, even at high hardness (60 HRC);
-High wear resistance;
-Quite good corrosion resistance (just prone to surface rusting instead of pitting, which I think is a major point);
-High flexibility, but high strength.

I guess you will answer me that 3V is an answer to INFI but field testing has shown that it doesn't have enough toughness and is very prone to deep pitting.

Talking about 3V, I would like to know why it doesn't have Nickel (adds toughness), Cobalt (to strengthen the steel matrix) and Nitrogen (to form nitrites that allows high wear resistance while not decreasing toughness).

I think that designing a rival for INFI would make unnecessary all the efforts to find a better stainless steel than S30V as it does a great job for small knives according to many knifemakers and end users.

P.S. Once more, I'm sorry for this off-topic post, but I do NOT have any other way to contact Conan.

 

[NickWheeler]

I can give you an answer to the original question directly from one of the horse's mouths.

ATS-34/154CM are great steels, and make great knives. I liked the analogy of the '04 Porsche compared to the '05.

I do not feel most users would not notice a huge difference in the field. I also say this regarding a comparison of most simple steels when compared to other simple steels.

S30V is a great steel, it's quite a bit more expensive than ATS-34/154CM.

It is MUCH easier to do a hand rubbed finish on ATS/154 than S30V. I do not notice a huge difference in grinding using ceramic belts and discs.


To throw an unneeded loop in here, the two steels that I notice a very large difference in, compared to all other steels I use, are 3V and W2. Yes, a very broad statement... I know.

-Nick-

 

[Larrin]

Conan,

since you are a metallurgist and seem to work for Crucible, I would like to know what steel companies and especially Crucible are waiting for to design a steel that could rival the infamous INFI steel from Busse Combat. I think the knife community would be very grateful to have such a steel available to the custom market. Just as a reminder, here are the main properties of INFI:

-Very high impact resistance, even at high hardness (60 HRC);
-High wear resistance;
-Quite good corrosion resistance (just prone to surface rusting instead of pitting, which I think is a major point);
-High flexibility, but high strength.

I guess you will answer me that 3V is an answer to INFI but field testing has shown that it doesn't have enough toughness and is very prone to deep pitting.

Talking about 3V, I would like to know why it doesn't have Nickel (adds toughness), Cobalt (to strengthen the steel matrix) and Nitrogen (to form nitrites that allows high wear resistance while not decreasing toughness).

I think that designing a rival for INFI would make unnecessary all the efforts to find a better stainless steel than S30V as it does a great job for small knives according to many knifemakers and end users.

P.S. Once more, I'm sorry for this off-topic post, but I do NOT have any other way to contact Conan.

This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. INFI is famous? Maybe on this little forum, in your little Busse world. 3V an answer to INFI? Why would they have to answer INFI? Crucible probably doesn't even know that INFI exists.
They don't add those other elemements because they don't need to, they need to make a balanced steel, not one that has some of everything, and besides, you didn't list any of the things that those alloys do to detract from the steel, like how nickel also cuts down on wear resistance. By the way, INFI is simply an A8 mod., a steel made for toughness that has a little bit of wear resistance. Busse has simply hyped up the steel. 3V is a very good high-performance steel, very good all-around for knives, with a combination of excellent edge retention and toughness. INFI is just an average high-toughness steel hyped up by Busse. Your reports of corrosion resistance, in my opinion, are another result of hype. When it comes to the composition of both, 3V should at least be just as good at corrosion resistance.