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Is 154cm the same as ats34 ?
- Thread starter Sebenza4ever
- Start date
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
Kohai999 said:
You are absolutely right.
The process is their own patented process which they call hot isostatic pressing. It involves heating under extreme pressure. You can read about it on their website. The very simplified explaination I offered was not intended as perfectly-accurate, but intented, rather, to give a basic understanding of the process. Even the website, which fills in more details, is, I'm sure, quite simplified. Like so many things, the concept is simple... but the devil is in the details. And their mastery of that devil is Crucible's bread and butter.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 1998
- Messages
- 2,157
Dalko,
You cranky crabby little Qubecer! You tried to give me bad reputation points.
Earlier you wrote:
What part of your background, other than reading the internet, makes you more of an expert than Jerry?
How much metallurgy experience do you have?
How much testing have you done?
How many steels have you tested?
How many knives have you tested?
How many steels were represented in the knives you tested?
Do you actually own a knife?
You cranky crabby little Qubecer! You tried to give me bad reputation points.
Earlier you wrote:
So I ask the questions again:Dalko said:
What part of your background, other than reading the internet, makes you more of an expert than Jerry?
How much metallurgy experience do you have?
How much testing have you done?
How many steels have you tested?
How many knives have you tested?
How many steels were represented in the knives you tested?
Do you actually own a knife?
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
At least knifemakers can read. In the above post I didn't say "S30V has more corrosion resistance than 440C". It might, and Crucible seems to think so, but I don't work with 440C so I don't know. I said S30V has more corrosion resistance than 154CM.Dalko said:
I can't speak for Jason's experiences.
Oh well, another attemped at being smart shattered 
.
I actually read the decription on Crucibles webpage but since the description of their hot isostatic pressing on the webpage is essentially identical to the description of certain sintering processes that a book on sintering was describing I though that the term "hot isostatic pressing" was simply a marketing strategy. Apparently not. As Gollnick said, the Devil is always in the detail.
. I actually read the decription on Crucibles webpage but since the description of their hot isostatic pressing on the webpage is essentially identical to the description of certain sintering processes that a book on sintering was describing I though that the term "hot isostatic pressing" was simply a marketing strategy. Apparently not. As Gollnick said, the Devil is always in the detail.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,827
In sintering the particles are heated only enough to weld them together, making a porous sponge-like substance. Sintered bronze is used for fuel filters -- gasoline flows right through it. The CPM process fuses the particles completely, into solid steel. The processes are similar but the end result is very different.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,676
A lot of good info here, just takes a little sorting 
Some thoughts to share; when Crucible made 154cm for Boeing' jet fins, they added 4% Moly to stop "high temperature creep". The fins were expanding under the extreme temperature and were hitting the fan housing. 154cm was produced in volume for that purpose. Then knifemaker, Bob Loveless, I believe, "discovered" the steel for knifemakers. (Bob does that quite a bit).
When Boeing converted to Titan fins, Crucible lowered production of 154cm. That's when Hitachi created ATS-34 to fill that market.
Hi HoB. Regarding H-1, there are still many unanswered questions. We know it doesn't rust. We know it gets pretty hard, we know it holds an edge quite well for a "steel" that doesn't rust. We've learned that it does have grinding limitations. We know it work hardens. We know it's difficult to manufacture. But there is still quite a bit we don't know......like any new steel .
sal
Some thoughts to share; when Crucible made 154cm for Boeing' jet fins, they added 4% Moly to stop "high temperature creep". The fins were expanding under the extreme temperature and were hitting the fan housing. 154cm was produced in volume for that purpose. Then knifemaker, Bob Loveless, I believe, "discovered" the steel for knifemakers. (Bob does that quite a bit).
When Boeing converted to Titan fins, Crucible lowered production of 154cm. That's when Hitachi created ATS-34 to fill that market.
Hi HoB. Regarding H-1, there are still many unanswered questions. We know it doesn't rust. We know it gets pretty hard, we know it holds an edge quite well for a "steel" that doesn't rust. We've learned that it does have grinding limitations. We know it work hardens. We know it's difficult to manufacture. But there is still quite a bit we don't know......like any new steel
.sal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2004
- Messages
- 570
I have never done any testing on the stain resisting abilities of ANY steel. That was just my opinion based on what I've seen in my own knives. My conclusion was not the result of any sort of standardised test. I made a mistake in posting my opinion and not mentioning that it was just that.
"s30v is still the new kid on the block. Alot of makers and thier customers are still uninformed about it's properties. As has been proved by this thread there are still alot of myths floating around about this new steel."
There I go proving myself right. :footinmou
"s30v is still the new kid on the block. Alot of makers and thier customers are still uninformed about it's properties. As has been proved by this thread there are still alot of myths floating around about this new steel."
There I go proving myself right. :footinmou
Cougar: What you are talking about is "open pore" sintering. That is essentially sintering with unfinished grain growth. There is also closed pore sintering (like Spyderco's white vs. gray rods). A2 steel for example can be sintered and quite a few tool blanks are made that way (allows very easy shaping of the blank). I don't know if this technique is used for knife blanks.
The distiction I perceived with the CPM steels was instead of powderizing the finished steel with successive heating and compressing, I thought they would powderize (or actually atomize, just finer powder) the individual ingrediences of the steel, mixup the powder and then heat and compress. I would still call that sintering. But obviously I don't know. I just try to learn.
Thank you, Sal. I figured as much, but I thought I'd ask.
The distiction I perceived with the CPM steels was instead of powderizing the finished steel with successive heating and compressing, I thought they would powderize (or actually atomize, just finer powder) the individual ingrediences of the steel, mixup the powder and then heat and compress. I would still call that sintering. But obviously I don't know. I just try to learn.
Thank you, Sal. I figured as much, but I thought I'd ask.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,676
First, I must admit to bias. Crucible is my favorite steel company. This is probably true of many manufacturers and custom makers alike. Crucible is interested in our industry and they do much to support and improve it.
The powdered metal process begins with the molten steel (1st chamber). Homogenous because it's in a liquid form. All of the ingredients are liquified, carbon, moly, etc.
The molten steel is dropped into a 2nd chamber that atomizes the molten steel into particles. Each particle is a "DNA" replica of the molten liquid in the first chamber. They look like sparks flying around the chamber. The particles drop into liquid nitrogen, third chamber, where they are instantly frozen.
The particles are then collected, and put into a 4th chamber where they are "hipped". Then the billets are rolled hot into workable lengths.
It is an awesome bit of high-tech in steel manufacturing. Crucible, IMO, is to be appreciated and respected.
sal
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The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
The powdered metal process begins with the molten steel (1st chamber). Homogenous because it's in a liquid form. All of the ingredients are liquified, carbon, moly, etc.
The molten steel is dropped into a 2nd chamber that atomizes the molten steel into particles. Each particle is a "DNA" replica of the molten liquid in the first chamber. They look like sparks flying around the chamber. The particles drop into liquid nitrogen, third chamber, where they are instantly frozen.
The particles are then collected, and put into a 4th chamber where they are "hipped". Then the billets are rolled hot into workable lengths.
It is an awesome bit of high-tech in steel manufacturing. Crucible, IMO, is to be appreciated and respected.
sal
---------------------------------------------
The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
Thanks, again Mr. Glesser for taking the time to explain this.
The EPMA (European Powder Metal Association) has a pretty good site that I just discovered: www.epma.com that describes a bit of some aspects of powder metallurgy, processes like sintering, HIP etc. in case anybody is interested. Look for the site map. Unfortunately some of the pages freeze up my browser, but that maybe just my old computer.
The EPMA (European Powder Metal Association) has a pretty good site that I just discovered: www.epma.com that describes a bit of some aspects of powder metallurgy, processes like sintering, HIP etc. in case anybody is interested. Look for the site map. Unfortunately some of the pages freeze up my browser, but that maybe just my old computer.
There is also some good information on PM materials at Bohler-Uddeholm's site www.bucorp.com. They have an article about their powdered material manufacturing process and how it is cleaner than previous generations. It has info regarding cleanliness and toughness.