Is A Bussy Knife A ***** Knife?

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Frank Warren

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I got a Steel Heart just before Xmas, and for the record, I have no problems with Andy Prisco or Jerry Busse. But after having lived with the knife for a few days, I think there is better on the market at a fraction of the price. Here are my beefs (now that I've got your attention :-)

The choil sucks The Cosmic Big One. For a combat knife, any full-length insertion is going to hang up on muscle and NOT come back out. This is fatal in combat with bears, and anyone who has been in a fight knows that one thrust is NOT decisive against either man or beast with a very few exceptions. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!! If we're gonna call this a combat knife, one MUST be able to use the point as well as the edge.

Fair beef? What's your take on this one?

The surface finish is not commensurate with a knife in this price range. It is clearly an epoxy coat, not a teflon process. This stuff has way too much friction on it for teflon. More, it looks like it has been designed and applied to hide grind lines and surface flaws on the finish of the knife.

Fair beef? If I'm being a weenie about this, tell me so. I can take it, even if you do cuss me in the process.

The stock sheath REALLY sucks rocks. If I hadn't taken Andy up on the leather sheath, I would be unable to carry this knife for even woods use. The blade sticks, HARD, in the sheath and takes two hands to get it out. Again, on a $300 knife, this should not be happening.

Fourth, the blade is no sharper than it is on knives of a third the price and less, such as the Cold Steel Recon Tanto.

Fifth, if I'm not getting more edge, why am I putting up with the weird grind, which may burn out a Lansky Diamond hone to get it to where *I* can deal with serious sharpening? Obviously these are related questions.

Note that I am mostly upset about that choil. The other issues can probably be dealt with, but should not have to be on a knife at this price range.

What do I think is a better knife?

The Cold Steel Recon Scout. Except for the pointless extra metal in the tang (and which makes the knife unwieldy and uncomfortable to hold due to its shape) the Cold Steel blade is heavier and has better temper. Will a Busse Steel Heart E (the model I got from Andy) bend 70 degrees in a vise and inch from the point and not break or take a set? Does it have the toughness?

It does not have extra sharpness in my view. The Busse's sharpness is due mostly to the rolled edge on the off side. Any Cold Steel Recon Scout ($140) or Trail Master ($160) which has been given a rolled edge will stay with the Steel Heart cut for cut. I HAVE such knives in my collection and the main objection to them is that it's virtually impossible to re-sharpen without special equipment, namely, a slack leather belt and tin-oxide-based loading compound. Of course, direct price-to-price comparisons are a bit misleading here.

Anyone who knows beans about knife knows it COSTS about $5 to the maker to put a rolled edge on just one side of the knife.

For general purpose use, I still think the Cold Steel Recon Scout in the Steel Heart size is the better value and BETTER KNIFE! And in the Battle Mistress size, the Trail Master has it all OVER the Busse. This is due mostly to design flaws like that choil, the poor sheath design and execution.

I do and don't think the Busse is a marginal knife. As a combat knife? It is worse than poor; use the point and you'll unquestionably lose your knife in mid-fight. This is not true of the CS products. Lynn Thompson knows better, and never has produced such a poor design feature on a knife.

As a rugged backwoods knife? I think the Busse will probably shine as long as one is not separated from one's rifle when meeting a bear where one MUST use the point to survive the encounter.

Anyway, these are my unasked-for (and probably unwelcome) observations.

I think Busse could make a better product for the price. Some of the complaints are almost trivial; he has to CUT OUT that choil the way it is, and a way that is demonstrably wrong for combat use. Fixing that is not hard.

I haven't abused the knife at this point so I haven't had any sharpening problems, and Andy is such a great guy I'm sure he'll take care of me in that regard (despite this message), so I don't mess things up and have to revert to a Lansky Diamond Hone to re-shape the edge. I'm almost of a mind to use a Lansky set to put an edge on the cutout so I can actually use the knife in the combat for which it is said to be designed.

Anyway, this is not a perfect knife. I cannot comment on the steel as I haven't been out there whittling on a chunk of concrete with the edge. I try not to abuse any knife; one has to treat one's tools well if one expects good service from them. I don't care how good the steel is, an idiot can ruin a well-honed edge, and while the Busse isn't the best I've ever had, it beats anything short of the old Trail Master rolled edge.

So flame away, guys. I think some of my comments here are arguable, but others are constructive. The marginal sheath hurts reputation, and if someone does actually lose his knife on an insertion and gets dead for his trouble, it will hurt Busse's reputation even more. The things I've complained about do, I think, need to be addressed.

Meanwhile I'll continue with my Recon Scout as being, truly, the best out there right now in its size.
 
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Gee, I don't know which part of your review makes the most sense.

[This message has been edited by Strabs (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Frank Warren:
The choil sucks The Cosmic Big One. For a combat knife, any full-length insertion is going to hang up on muscle and NOT come back out. This is fatal in combat with bears, and anyone who has been in a fight knows that one thrust is NOT decisive against either man or beast with a very few exceptions. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!! If we're gonna call this a combat knife, one MUST be able to use the point as well as the edge.

There is a clear cutlery industry distinction between a "fighting" knife and a "combat" knife, and to give credit where credit is due, Greg Walker helped many folks understand this in the early 90's through his publication, Fighting Knives. A fighting knife is meant just for fighting....employing design features sensitive to that application exclusively, i.e. no choil, thin point, some double edged, etc...a Tanto is not the ONLY style of fighting knife, and for as many knife fighting experts who like them, there are as many who don't for fighting.

A Combat Knife, as the industry recognizes the nomenclature today, is a knife that is meant to be used in a military or paramilitary combat setting afield, with
design features that make the knife a multi-faceted tool for the serviceman or woman.

This is where Busse Combat made its bones, as did Randall as early as WWII...

Fair beef? What's your take on this one?

The surface finish is not commensurate with a knife in this price range. It is clearly an epoxy coat, not a teflon process. This stuff has way too much friction on it for teflon. More, it looks like it has been designed and applied to hide grind lines and surface flaws on the finish of the knife.

It's not a standard epoxy coat...it IS a Teflon enhanced coating. The wear and chip resistance will spank the coatings on most if not all other coated knives from a production or semi-custom house....next. As for the coating hiding things, show me a coated knife from any manufacturer that is pleasant to look at underneath.

Fair beef? If I'm being a weenie about this, tell me so. I can take it, even if you do cuss me in the process.

The stock sheath REALLY sucks rocks. If I hadn't taken Andy up on the leather sheath, I would be unable to carry this knife for even woods use. The blade sticks, HARD, in the sheath and takes two hands to get it out. Again, on a $300 knife, this should not be happening.

The new Busse Sheaths have been praised and cursed....the Team never seems to win on this one...again, to each his own.

Fourth, the blade is no sharper than it is on knives of a third the price and less, such as the Cold Steel Recon Tanto.

That's not the opinion of most customers, but if for any reason you are not happy with the sharpness, you can send it to the Busse Shop for a buff....

Fifth, if I'm not getting more edge, why am I putting up with the weird grind, which may burn out a Lansky Diamond hone to get it to where *I* can deal with serious sharpening? Obviously these are related questions.

...don't quite understand this statement, but Busse's combination of INFI, grinding methods, and asymmetrcial edge have outperformed EVERY other performance knife in the world in most categories of testing...in public I would add, at industry shows across the country, and now the globe.

Note that I am mostly upset about that choil. The other issues can probably be dealt with, but should not have to be on a knife at this price range.

They certainly can, and please contact me off line if you would like a refund or some other discussion about getting you satisfied.

What do I think is a better knife?

The Cold Steel Recon Scout. Except for the pointless extra metal in the tang (and which makes the knife unwieldy and uncomfortable to hold due to its shape) the Cold Steel blade is heavier and has better temper.

Your Busse Knife will spank the Cold Steel if you actually use it Frank...try it and you'll see.
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Will a Busse Steel Heart E (the model I got from Andy) bend 70 degrees in a vise and inch from the point and not break or take a set? Does it have the toughness?

Check out the downloadable videos at www.bussecombat.com and watch a Battle Mistress bend to almost 90 degrees without breaking...and if a Recon Scout can do 70 degrees, please site your source on where you saw this done...

It does not have extra sharpness in my view. The Busse's sharpness is due mostly to the rolled edge on the off side. Any Cold Steel Recon Scout ($140) or Trail Master ($160) which has been given a rolled edge will stay with the Steel Heart cut for cut.

Neither Cold Steel model has ever stayed with a Busse Combat Knife, cut for cut, for years. Where are you gleaning this data?

I HAVE such knives in my collection and the main objection to them is that it's virtually impossible to re-sharpen without special equipment, namely, a slack leather belt and tin-oxide-based loading compound. Of course, direct price-to-price comparisons are a bit misleading here.

Almost every Busse Combat knife ever made can be maintained with a ceramic stick, leather, and compound...it has been the standing sharpening equipment suggested by Busse Combat for years and it is certainly not "special" equipment.....

Anyone who knows beans about knife knows it COSTS about $5 to the maker to put a rolled edge on just one side of the knife.

??? and another edge costs???

For general purpose use, I still think the Cold Steel Recon Scout in the Steel Heart size is the better value and BETTER KNIFE! And in the Battle Mistress size, the Trail Master has it all OVER the Busse. This is due mostly to design flaws like that choil, the poor sheath design and execution.

Well Frank, to each his own, but the Cold Steel models you mention have never outperformed a Busse...

I do and don't think the Busse is a marginal knife. As a combat knife? It is worse than poor; use the point and you'll unquestionably lose your knife in mid-fight. This is not true of the CS products. Lynn Thompson knows better, and never has produced such a poor design feature on a knife.

Again, the distinctions between a fighting knife and combat knife are above....Busse Combat Knives are used in the hardest conditions in the world, and the testimonial data has been in and publically known for quite some time now...

As a rugged backwoods knife? I think the Busse will probably shine as long as one is not separated from one's rifle when meeting a bear where one MUST use the point to survive the encounter.

OK Jeremiah Johnson...I got the Bear Attack thing already...you can use your Cold Steel to fight the bear...that's OK.
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Anyway, these are my unasked-for (and probably unwelcome) observations.
Unasked and unwelcome are OK...the tone is a little course, as is my response in kind....so there.
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I think Busse could make a better product for the price. Some of the complaints are almost trivial; he has to CUT OUT that choil the way it is, and a way that is demonstrably wrong for combat use. Fixing that is not hard.

...noted.

I haven't abused the knife at this point so I haven't had any sharpening problems, and Andy is such a great guy I'm sure he'll take care of me in that regard (despite this message),

Maybe you need to abuse it a little to get convinced it will outperform any knife you ever owned...get out there with both and do some chopping and cutting tests...there are also a bazillion you can find here at BladeForums which have already been done...in fact, the Basic #9 smoked the Trailmaster in Mike Turber's test on the on-line magazine...just do a search.

Anyway, this is not a perfect knife. I cannot comment on the steel as I haven't been out there whittling on a chunk of concrete with the edge. I try not to abuse any knife; one has to treat one's tools well if one expects good service from them. I don't care how good the steel is, an idiot can ruin a well-honed edge, and while the Busse isn't the best I've ever had, it beats anything short of the old Trail Master rolled edge.

Frank...GO USE THE KNIFE ALREADY before you tell everyone how your Cold Steel outperforms it....


So flame away, guys. I think some of my comments here are arguable, but others are constructive. The marginal sheath hurts reputation, and if someone does actually lose his knife on an insertion and gets dead for his trouble, it will hurt Busse's reputation even more. The things I've complained about do, I think, need to be addressed.

again...noted.

Meanwhile I'll continue with my Recon Scout as being, truly, the best out there right now in its size.</font>
Click to expand...

That's OK...again, to each his own..get with me off line if you want to discuss getting your knife resharpened or if you want to send it back...no worries.


------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
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[This message has been edited by Andy Prisco (edited 12-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Andy Prisco (edited 12-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Andy Prisco (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
I also, JUST got a SH-E,and here's my take,
I like the choil,makes the blade feel real handy for it's size,I also like the sheath,although I think a quality kydex would be praised by all.the pouch is very cool and I like that I can wear it lefty.The coating I'm undecided on,seems like it's wearing from the sheath,probably 'cuz I take it out to play with it every 5 min.A combat knife should have a rough finish.It's not the prettiest knife in the world,but I didn't get the toughest piece of steel on the planet to look at and admire. I got it to beat the heck out of it,and I doubt it will disappoint me.
 
Andy, you wrote so much I had to print it out to make any sort of sensible reply, if it can be that without the quotes.

Regarding a distinction between "combat" and "fighting" knives, that is semanic BS IMHO. Combat IS fighting. Look it up in the dictionary. If there are all sorts of semantic nonsense floating around saying that combat does NOT include fighting as a primary activity, I don't buy it. I will buy that a knife PURELY for killing another human being in a fight, versus a general purpose military knife, yes, I think that is true. But for the knife to be a true combat knife, it must ALSO excel at all aspects of fighting since that is what a military unit is there to do.

You acknowledged the choil so that's not an issue. It was a disappointment.

I was amused at your admission that the surface finish on the coated blade is not particulalry smooth
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As for the sheaths, is there anything that can be done do fix them besides swapping them out?

I checked out the downloadable videos. It only showed a 27 degree bend angle and return to true. Cold Steel will blow this away. Is there a video I missed? I had about 7 of them to look at.

Where I'm obtaining the data on what a rolled edge Cold Steel Trail Master will do is that I own two of them. They are, of course, difficult to maintain if beaten on hard.

And, yes, I've written to Lynn Thompson before about flaws in his delivered products and he's a good deal more contentious about it than you are
smile.gif


I can't find Mike's test report. Searched and searched, and, no joy. Got a link for me? Isn't Mike a Cold Steel distributor?

To quote you: "Frank...GO USE THE KNIFE ALREADY..." Are you seriously suggesting I beat up my Steel Heart?
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Regarding your remark that some fighters do not consider the Tanto (which I'd not mentioned) as the best fighter, the stainless in it won't hold up to a good custom steel. Still, it is a very well done design for what it is if one uses a compatible style (nota bene: the knife enhances or dehances a given style as any tool does. Can't play convincing guitar parts with an accordion.

The choil and sheath were my major disappointments.

I'd have been incredibly pleased but for this. Being unhappy with those, I was prone to find more faults, most of which were mostly nits. Any chance on getting one with these things being more to my tastes?

You not going to sell me Variants now, are you? You have had some pretty neat ones on your web page.

I did come across some other reviews and see that people ARE abusing the BM and SH and the steel is holding up to a level I find hard to believe.

Do you have ANY idea how much money you're going to cost me if I beat up my SH and it's really that good?

I must not believe....I must not believe
cool.gif
 
Frank, FWIW try the Basics line. Not a lot of glitz but good performance and a good medium between a combat and fighting knife IMO.

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
First off, Welcome to the Forums!

You said...."I got a Steel Heart just before Xmas, and for the record, I have no problems with Andy Prisco or Jerry Busse. But after having lived with the knife for a few days, I think there is better on the market at a fraction of the price. Here are my beefs (now that I've got your attention :-)
The choil sucks The Cosmic Big One. For a combat knife, any full-length insertion is going to hang up on muscle and NOT come back out. This is fatal in combat with bears, and anyone who has been in a fight knows that one thrust is NOT decisive against either man or beast with a very few exceptions. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!! If we're gonna call this a combat knife, one MUST be able to use the point as well as the edge."

I say...Do you sir get into a lot of situations where you insert your knife for it's full blade length into a human or animal? Do you realize how difficult it would be to stick a knife that far into someone? I could be wrong though(chances are you are too). If you were in combat situation with a bear, wouldn't you be more concerned with his giant arm and huge claws ripping you face off than whether your knife gets stuck in him? chances are, you wouldn't even get to react fast enough to insert your knife through his very tough and thick hide.

You said..."Fair beef? What's your take on this one? The surface finish is not commensurate with a knife in this price range. It is clearly an epoxy coat, not a teflon process. This stuff has way too much friction on it for teflon. More, it looks like it has been designed and applied to hide grind lines and surface flaws on the finish of the knife.
Fair beef? If I'm being a weenie about this, tell me so. I can take it, even if you do cuss me in the process."

I say....I agree with you on the coating. Ofcourse it always comes down to personal preference on the type of coating. The coating could be used to cover up surface flaws...however I don't feel there is any need (from a function standpoint) to bring a knife to a mirror finish and then go ahead and coat it. Since coated blades are more desired by the majority of users, it shouldn't matter how shiny and polished the surface is underneath. As far as covering up surface flaws...I once had a basic 9 and stripped the coating off of it. I found that the blade surface was very flat and would have been just great without the coating on it.

You said...."The stock sheath REALLY sucks rocks. If I hadn't taken Andy up on the leather sheath, I would be unable to carry this knife for even woods use. The blade sticks, HARD, in the sheath and takes two hands to get it out. Again, on a $300 knife, this should not be happening."

I say...Again this is a case of personal preference. If the sheath did stick hard...send it back and get a new one. I can understand your point about laying down $300 for a knife and then have things like this happen. From my experience, when I used a leg strap, My basic 9 and BM came out easily and were still secure in the sheath.

You said..."Fourth, the blade is no sharper than it is on knives of a third the price and less, such as the Cold Steel Recon Tanto.

I say...To my knowledge and experience Cold Steel has some of the sharpest knives out of the box. However, there is a certain level of sharpness which is worth reaching. I don't think that an extremely polished and hoined edge is necessary and practical for most cutting applications. In fact I find that a more aggressive and rugged edge like you find on Busses is more practical for chopping and abusive work.
You said..."Fifth, if I'm not getting more edge, why am I putting up with the weird grind, which may burn out a Lansky Diamond hone to get it to where *I* can deal with serious sharpening? Obviously these are related questions."

I say...I am confused on the first sentence here... what do you mean? Do you mean if you aren't getting a better edge out of the box. I think that if you would have done more research on how to properly sharpen a Busse, you would have found that a ceramic and piece of leather with Aluminum Oxide powder on it would get you a sharper edge more easily than using a lansky. In fact, Stropping on a leather and a ceramic are the recommended tools for sharpening Busse knives.

You said..."Note that I am mostly upset about that choil. The other issues can probably be dealt with, but should not have to be on a knife at this price range."

I say...Again this is matter of personal preference. I find that the choil lets me use my BM as smaller knife for whittling and "delicate" work. Since I am a boring guy, I haven't had any experiences with inserting my BM into any bears or two-legged creatures and getting it stuck.

You said..."What do I think is a better knife? The Cold Steel Recon Scout. Except for the pointless extra metal in the tang (and which makes the knife unwieldy and uncomfortable to hold due to its shape) the Cold Steel blade is heavier and has better temper."

I say...Well you are certainly entitled to your own choice of cutting tools. What do you mean by better temper? Do you mean Heat treat? To my knowledge, Cold Steel uses a simple Carbon steel for the Trail master(unless it is a san mai), recon scout and tanto. Simple carbon steels cost $.30 to $1.50 per pound and INFI steel costs About $33.00 per pound. Simple carbon steels undergo a simple method of heat treatment whereas INFI's cryo/heat treatment is much more complex and transforms INFI into something very tough...much more tough that the competition. This is not to say that simple steels and heat treat methods yield a bad product, but rather Busse's heat treatment yields a tougher and better product(due to the steel and process involved).
You said..."Will a Busse Steel Heart E (the model I got from Andy) bend 70 degrees in a vise and inch from the point and not break or take a set? Does it have the toughness?"

I say...If you would have researched this before posting you would have found that Busses have quite a reputation and have their tests documented in their performance video. The Bm was bent to 80 degrees(with the whole blade being 60 Rockwell) clamped in a vise 1 inch from the tip. The Bm has cut well over 2,000 pieces of hemp rope in a 1.5 inch area of the blade and then still shaved. I am sure the guys here on the forums will be more than glad to give somemore facts about the extreme toughness of Jerrys products.

You said..."It does not have extra sharpness in my view. The Busse's sharpness is due mostly to the rolled edge on the off side. Any Cold Steel Recon Scout ($140) or Trail Master ($160) which has been given a rolled edge will stay with the Steel Heart cut for cut. I HAVE such knives in my collection and the main objection to them is that it's virtually impossible to re-sharpen without special equipment, namely, a slack leather belt and tin-oxide-based loading compound. Of course, direct price-to-price comparisons are a bit misleading here."

I say...You are certainly entitled to your view. Me personally...when I got my Battle Mistress, Basic 9, Basic 5, Basic 3, and Mean Street...I was Surprised with how hair popping sharp(especially the basic 9 and BM) they were.

You said..."For general purpose use, I still think the Cold Steel Recon Scout in the Steel Heart size is the better value and BETTER KNIFE! And in the Battle Mistress size, the Trail Master has it all OVER the Busse. This is due mostly to design flaws like that choil, the poor sheath design and execution.
I do and don't think the Busse is a marginal knife. As a combat knife? It is worse than poor; use the point and you'll unquestionably lose your knife in mid-fight. This is not true of the CS products. Lynn Thompson knows better, and never has produced such a poor design feature on a knife."

I say...Well again this is arguable. It all depends on what you use it for and how much bread you are willing to lay out for a cutting tool. Cold Steel makes some real great knives. Busse makes some real great knives too. In documented tests by Cliff Stamp and many others around the forums, Busse spanked Cold Steel and the competition.

You said..."As a rugged backwoods knife? I think the Busse will probably shine as long as one is not separated from one's rifle when meeting a bear where one MUST use the point to survive the encounter."

I say...Thats very funny. I am led to believe that a Trail master wouldn't fare much better than a Bm or SH especially when dealing with a bear. In the case of a bear, give me my 12 Gauge and hefty load of 000 Buckshot
smile.gif


You said..."Anyway, these are my unasked-for (and probably unwelcome) observations.
I think Busse could make a better product for the price. Some of the complaints are almost trivial; he has to CUT OUT that choil the way it is, and a way that is demonstrably wrong for combat use. Fixing that is not hard.
I haven't abused the knife at this point so I haven't had any sharpening problems, and Andy is such a great guy I'm sure he'll take care of me in that regard (despite this message), so I don't mess things up and have to revert to a Lansky Diamond Hone to re-shape the edge. I'm almost of a mind to use a Lansky set to put an edge on the cutout so I can actually use the knife in the combat for which it is said to be designed.
Anyway, this is not a perfect knife. I cannot comment on the steel as I haven't been out there whittling on a chunk of concrete with the edge. I try not to abuse any knife; one has to treat one's tools well if one expects good service from them. I don't care how good the steel is, an idiot can ruin a well-honed edge, and while the Busse isn't the best I've ever had, it beats anything short of the old Trail Master rolled edge.
So flame away, guys. I think some of my comments here are arguable, but others are constructive. The marginal sheath hurts reputation, and if someone does actually lose his knife on an insertion and gets dead for his trouble, it will hurt Busse's reputation even more. The things I've complained about do, I think, need to be addressed.
Meanwhile I'll continue with my Recon Scout as being, truly, the best out there right now in its size. "
A lot of this stuff is debatable and mainly a matter of opinion. I respect your views even though I don't agree with everything you said. I hope you continue to post here on the forums and again...Welcome to the Forums!
Best Regards,
Luke
 
Hi
smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Frank Warren:
This is fatal in combat with bears, and anyone who has been in a fight knows that one thrust is NOT decisive against either man or beast with a very few exceptions. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!! </font>
Click to expand...
biggrin.gif
Apparently combat with bears is becomming something verrrry popular. Pardon, but despite of owning several Busse knives I do not feel any urge(s) to go & fight some bear(s), BTW I have couple CS knives and still don't want to. Either way, when I think of an encounter with the bear #1 that comes to my mind is not a knife but a rifle
smile.gif
(that shouldn't not be separated from the knife?)
Anyway, as a non bear_fighter or non bear_knife_fighter I personally find that choil very helpfull whenever I use a large knife & have some finer cutting task...
I don't want to repeat prev. msgs, there were excellent remarks regerding your post
wink.gif
BTW nobody cussed at you.




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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
 
Lukers, thanks to you for a thoughtful reply to complement Andy's. The Steel Heart is a knife quite unlike what I am used to, and I may have to regard it primarily as a cutting rather than insertion tool (and, yes, I have done that, and it's hell if one gets into that particular alligator tank).

A lot of how hard an insertion is depends on a variety of factors; double versus single edged, clothing density and the fitness level of the individual. Insertions are not as difficult as most people think. Withdrawals, however, can be quite another matter.

Of course, much of this is academic except in my own mind. I used to fight with knives as a young man. And, corps a corps, I'd still rather have one than a gun.

Perhaps I had the wrong expectations, as Andy pointed out. I heard something very different with the word Combat than what Andy has defined it as.

It's late. There's nothing to chop, so I'm temporarily frustrated.
 
Frank,
Try the basic #9. It is a great knife for a lot less money. BTW what do you exactly do? Professionaly? Special forces? Military? You seem to have some experience with fighting knives and using them.

IMHO, I don't think that the Busse lines are fighters. For the woods, utility, and survival I think they can't be beat. I have done alot of research on the internet on various knives and personaly find that the Busse knives are of good value compared to other makers out there. It is also a matter of personal preference.

Just curious, but why don't you want to abuse it? Use it. It has an unbeatable warranty. Damage or break it, your covered. You know Andy is a great guy and will do anything to make his customers happy. Just a suggestion but if you worried about getting a refund and don't want to use the knife, maybe Andy will give you a loaner to try out.

What ever the decision, good luck.



------------------
"KEEP IT SIMPLE"

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
 
OK, Jeremiah Johnson?

Andy, Andy....showing your Jersey again????

THAT made me laugh out loud.

 
Wow, there must be a California Bay Area bear probelm people don't talk about much.

Each to his own. I like the choil, I like the sheath, and I like the steel. I own and have owned several Cold Steel knives including a Recon Scout, which I had to put a new handle on. I have chopped with both a Recon Scout and a Busse on the same tree. The Busse did a much better job and was much easier to use.

Normally we don't use this forum to dog Cold Steel nor any other maker. We also don't show such disrespect by purposely mis-spelling a maker's name in the topic line. Why don't you wait until you have earned the right to mis-spell the name.

I suggest you put your Steel Heart up for sale. Resale of Busse knives has proven results. Buy yourself a couple of Recon Scouts and go find yourself a bear. When you stab that bad boy and that rubber handle twists off in your hand, please, oh please, send us a picture of that look on your face.

Have a nice day.
 
Frank,

I understand your questions regarding the use of the term "Combat" with regard to a knife. However, I think if you ask Jerry or Andy the use of the term (by Busse Combat) refers to Combat Survival. Meaning, and this is my understanding of the definition, if you are stuck in a bad situation and had only one knife to skin, entrench, chop and widdle, etc. with....... this is the knife.

I will not take the time to define, from my perspective, the difference between a "fighting" versus "combat" knife. I think that has been covered already. However, I do appreciate your bringing this to light so that any lurkers to the forums get clarification like I hope you have. I also appreciate the fact that a design that incorporates ALL of the necessities for both uses does not exist, nor can it.

I was also a BIG FAN of Cold Steel knives, and owned several of them, until I discovered Busse. Now, I do not own any Cold Steels. Some may disagree, but that's what makes "freewill" freewill.

The only other issue I would like to address in your thread is that of the sheaths. As Andy previously stated, it seems this is something Busse continuously has to fight. However, and again others opinions may differ, I have had custom sheaths made for some of my Busse's and they are outstanding. But I don't fault Busse for their sheath. They have tried to accomodate a BROAD RANGE of opinions and attitudes toward sheath design and features. The current, what I call "Cordurex", sheath seems to accomodate the largest spectrum of opinions and features.

I would suggest that if you have a better Fighting/Combat/Survival knife design in mind, why not make it a custom order from Busse and get it made out of the BEST, BAR NONE, ABSOLUTELY THE FINEST STEEL FOR KNIFEMAKING IN THE WORLD, INFI. I have not seen any publications, articles, reviews, etc. that have denied or tried to dispell that. The knife may cost you a pretty penny, but it would certainly be EXACTLY what you want and would be an heirloom to your offspring that could NOT, IMHO, be equalled by any other items in your inventory.

Lastly, thanks for the honest approach. I respect and admire it. If everyone concurred on everything, what a boring world it would be!

I hope to see your thread here next year about your custom design, made from INFI, that you can't seem to put down long enough to go to the head (thats bathroom for you non-sailors).

Welcome to the forums Frank.

Have a Happy New Year and go beat the @#%& out of your Busse.
 
Did you look at a SH before you bought one? Did you look at a picture of one?
I really love the knife fighter and full-length insertion parts, along with the "yes, I've actually done this", and "it must also excel at all aspects of fighting", "use the point and you'll undoubtedly lose your knife in mid-fight". You little chairborne rangers kill me. Love the bear fighting comments, too. That along with buying a long, heavy, thick, flat ground chopper, and expecting it to "excel at all aspects of fighting", and withdraw easily after being rammed hilt deep in another person or a bear. LMAO.
If the knife doesn't meet your totally unrealistic criteria then why did you buy it?
What knife do you think does all that, and does it all well (hint: no such knife, that's why there's more than one kind). You're either a victim of your own ignorance or stupidity, whichever. Maybe if you were to go join the military, and spend a little time in the field, you'd find out what a "combat" knife is for (and yes, I'm an ex-paratrooper, so I've used knives in the field before-never stabbed anyone or fought a bear, though).

You have a point with the finish and sheath, but your wild little imagination is a bit much, and it's obvious you just want to stir things up.
Thanks for the laughs, troll.
 
Have to agree with Owen and MTF here.

It won't kill bears but I don't want to beat on my knife? Do I have this summarized?

My take: It's all about the coin. Paid more than you could or anted to and are now searching for flaws. I work in the high-end audio industry and expensive equipment ALWAYS gets savaged primarily because: it costs. "I can't readily afford it so here's what's wrong with it."

 
Well just in case this isnt just a desperate call for love and attention in the form of Trolling I offer up this picture

http://home.att.net/~j_boriqua/Beknives_n_Busse2.htm

One is a Bruce Evans Bowie, the other a Steel heart Variant. (Sniff Snivel which was recently sold) Anyway the difference between the two and thier purposes should be evident in the picture but in case its not.

The Bowie is lighting fast, about 3/16 of an inch thick and for something with an overall length of 15.5 inches incredibly light. It has a largeish double guard so if in blocking an opponents blade with your blade it should offer some degree of protection. (No Im not going to try it) The handle is on the slim side so subtle grip changes can be made quickly and surely when in a heated exchange. The top edge is sharp for lethal back cuts. The point is, well, pointy for quick and easy penetration. This is the definition (to me) of fighting or dueling knife. It would be near useless limbing trees, making kindeling(sp) digging holes, Prying crates or windows or building shelter.

My Busse (Even though I sold that one I have a SH E) is on the heavy side with a decidedly forward feel. The point is thick and a pretty poor poker. The handle is palm filling and although its possible to hold it in a variety of grips feels best in the hammer. If I were going to have a knife duel (not) I would not reach for this knife. Buuuttt Knife usage in a military or survival situation has little to do with fighting or dueling. (Yes I was in the military) It means your knife will dig, chop, pry, prepare food or as a utensil for eating and maybe ... just maybe ... stab or slash someone. My drills and later NCO's used to tell use during training if you have to resort to close quarter combat you or someone else has f***** up. Forget your knife and grab your E tool. I heard someone say that its because the military doesnt provide enough knife training. Maybe .. Or maybe its because if youve run out of ammo and so have all your comrades and the enemy is bum rushing your position there aint going to be no time for knife duels. I've said it before and Ill say it again .. unless someone comes along with something better ... if I had to run into the abyss with only one knife to depend on it would be the Busse. It does some of everything and does most of it quite well.

Ps
I dont see many bears in NYC or on my hiking and camping trips but I would think LEAVING THEM ALONE would be preferable to fighting one.


------------------
Alex

My Knife Page
 
Frank,
Why did you buy the knife in the first place??? I don't know about you, but I don't tend to plunk down that much green unless I'm reasonably sure I know what I'm buying. If you don't like it send it back!!!

Look at it this way. It's more likely that a tree will fall on you than a bear (or human) will cooperate enough to let you stab it that deeply, or at all
wink.gif
. So what you really need is a good chopper, and not a fighter, to dig your self out of that mess. Send that SH-E back and get a Battle Mistress-E! Better yet, since you're willing to play those odds, take that money to Vegas and win enough to buy us all fancy new bear stickers, of your expert design of course!!

Seriously, that knife will cover 99.99999% of all that you're likely to do in the woods, in combat, in your easy chair in front of the tube, on the can or anywhere else.
 
isn't there an old saying about the best knife to fight a bear?"whichever one will hurt the least when the bear shoves it up your...." or something to that effect.by the way, a good friend of mine actually was attacked by a griz on a hunting trip,his partner put 4 30-06 rounds into him,at close range, before he dropped.Result? despite the mauling of his leg and arm,$1000 fines for both of them and they didn't get to keep the bear.

[This message has been edited by Brent VanZanen (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
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