Is A Bussy Knife A ***** Knife?

Cliff Stamp · Jan 2, 2001

Frank Warren:

There are people out there doing Busse a GREAT disservice.

At times I wonder if some of the people doing the really aggressive over promotion and outright attacks at times realize the harm that they are doing and at other times wonder if in fact that are doing it intentionally to harm the reputation of the product. In any case, you will find such people for almost any knife you chose to discuss, you just ignore them.

Interesting results on the Recon Scout and SH, I can do far more than 36 chops into seasoned wood with my Battle Mistress without seeing significant dulling. Most of the chopping cycles I do are about 250 cuts at least, often 500+, and I don't sharpen the blade after each session. I usually do that after a few, or whenever I clean it.

From memory I can't think of many ways in which the two Cold Steel blades I have used (Trailmaster and Recon Scout) outperform the #7 Basic I have used let alone the Battle Mistress. All that comes to mind is that the tip on the CS steel knives is much thinner and thus the penetration would be better. The handle also makes it really easy to throw like a large dart, including unintentional throws.

In regards to edge retention, ease of sharpening, cutting ability, durability (blade and grip and sheath), sheath functionality and in fact just about all blade aspects the Busse knives easily have the advantage.

The current owner of the Basic (my brother) also used both Cold Steel blades for months and his opinion of their relative ability is similar to mine. He put the most damage on the Cold Steel blades and the Basic has stood up to similar and more stressful things much better. From accidental high impact work (nails and other inclusions) to just recreational work :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/basic_sink.jpg

You can't even see the edge damage on the blade it is that small, and most of the edge is at about 10 degrees, that is the large bevel you can see but there is a more obtuse micro bevel about 1 mm deep on top of it. The two CS blades showed more damage including chipping when used with lighter stress (lighter mallet and straight cuts) on softer material.

The handle has been rebuilt again if anyone is wondering why it is not green and white like it was in the last picture. By the way can someone tell me the length and width of a new Basic #7 blade.

-Cliff

Hoodoo · Jan 2, 2001

Originally posted by Frank Warren:
As for you, Hoodoo, what concerns me about you most of all is that while my complaints have been about design, you show a side of Busse owners that may convince people that they don't want to hang out and become involved with Busse.

Yeah, Frank. It's all my fault you bought a knife you knew virtually nothing about. Who's next on your "blame" list?

BTW, Frank, how many knife tests have you done before you became an expert on knife testing?

Like I said, go to Levine's and look at all the different knives that fall under the rubric "combat". The Camillus marine Raiders' Stiletto, the smatchet, and the USN Navy Mark I, are all grouped under the very general term "combat". Yet these knives are all QUITE different in their blade style. Or just look at the wide assortment of "military" knives.

BTW, a very famous combat knife is the kukhri. Try stabbing a bear with one of those!

Frank, I suggest you read the latest article in Tactical Knives on the Boker Smatchet. Here is a quote: "There is no question that a combat knife is used thousands of times as a tool for every time it is used as a weapon, even by front line combat troops."

Maybe you should write TK a letter and tell them they got it all wrong. Tell them that you, Frank Warren, Webster's dictionary in hand, are here to set the record straight. A true combat knife MUST pass the bear test. Then, and only then, will it be a true combat knife. Henceforth this will be known as the Frank Warren test, named after the renowned knife tester and famous knife fighter, Frank "Bear Killer" Warren.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

Lane Dexter · Jan 3, 2001

Oh come on, Hoodoo, it's just a knife, not a religion or holy crusade. Frank's criticisms and observations can be discussed in a civil manner.

FWIW, I DON'T fight with blades, but I'm sure there are many styles and systems. Trivia: The Kukri is a hell of a chopper, but I'd assume a thrust is at least possible. I know I can throw one and stick it into a tree just fine.

I am still exploring the general purpose uses for my SHII. I'll keep my magnifier handy. It will be interesting to see if time and sharpenings will change the edge slightly, and if that will affect durability when chopping.

I am interested in that conjecture about the blades being laser cut, and the very edge possibly having slightly different properties than the steel which is exposed after a couple of sharpenings.

Keep 'em sharp, and your powder dry.

Lane

PS: Thanks again, Frank, for starting the most active thread we've seen in a while. We'll really TRY to keep it on a slightly higher plane than the WWF...

[This message has been edited by Lane Dexter (edited 01-02-2001).]

Cliff Stamp · Jan 3, 2001

Lane :

The Kukri is a hell of a chopper, but I'd assume a thrust is at least possible.

Yes, there are a few threads on this in the HI forum. Its easier to stab with inverted I find, but you can get much more power leading with the point on a swing which due to the curvature turns into a stab. You could get hung up on the cho with a khukuri, but for most "combat" class blades this is like 2 lbs of steel with a stab/cut over 12+ inches deep and 2+ inches wide. From my understanding most khukuri encounters (man or bear, check the HI forum) don't require multiple heavy hits. I have never seen it described as a problem in any case.

I am interested in that conjecture about the blades being laser cut, and the very edge possibly having slightly different properties than the steel which is exposed after a couple of sharpenings.

I did not notice this with either of the Busse blades I used, but in general it is quite possible to have a wire edge left on a blade and you should always sharpen it yourself before signing off on the performance. Assuming of course you are not going to be sending it back to Busse to be sharpened on a regular basis in which case the NIB edge would be of critical importance to you.

-Cliff

Hoodoo · Jan 2, 2001

Originally posted by Lane Dexter:
Oh come on, Hoodoo, it's just a knife, not a religion or holy crusade. Frank's criticisms and observations can be discussed in a civil manner.

Gee Lane, why jump on my a$$ and not Franks? Could it be your still pi$$ed from your last flame in the Busse forum. Ya know Lane, I'm a fan of Busse knives but not a fanatic. I have lot's of others. But what really gets me going is when my hypersensitive internal bull$hit detector goes off. And this time it's ringing so loud it's deafening.

Yes, I'm such a terrible flamer. Well...let's just review some of Frank's stellar comments BEFORE I made my hypercritical post (and note his troll: "So flame away, guys," i.e., he came here looking for a flame and now your going to whine because he got one?

The choil sucks The Cosmic Big One. For a combat knife, any full-length insertion is going to hang up on muscle and NOT come back out. This is fatal in combat with bears, and anyone who has been in a fight knows that one thrust is NOT decisive against either man or beast with a very few exceptions. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!! If we're gonna call this a combat knife, one MUST be able to use the point as well as the edge.

Anyone who knows beans about knife knows it COSTS about $5 to the maker to put a rolled edge on just one side of the knife.

Matthew, I hate to do this in my first series of posts but the folks in this forum are for the most part fools.

So flame away, guys. I think some of my comments here are arguable, but others are constructive.

The use of the word combat by Busse Combat or by participants in this forum is strictly contrary to ALL correct English usage and is therefore specious and dissembling; that is, a lie. This lie needs to be made because I don't see any of the main line as being suitable for fighting due only in part to the choil. And, yes, despite being 51, I think I can still sink the whole length of the Steel Heart into a human being without undue effort even though the blade is poorly designed for the purpose.

I would not be so ordinarily obnoxious about this but I'm sick of people telling me that words don't mean what they mean. I can tell you that "Go f*ck yourself" is a friendly homily on my part but you'll take it badly no matter how much explaining I do, won't you? And rightly so.

I don't think I need to comment any further on these droppings. As Faukner said, it's all sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 01-02-2001).]

The General · Jan 2, 2001

Now this is a SCARY thread!

Killing teddy bears...
Others killing dogs...

Hmmm

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

bigtree31 · Jan 2, 2001

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!

Frank Warren · Jan 2, 2001

Hoodoo, just lose the personal attacks. That you would be at war with me is not surprising; people are attached to their knives and other weapons and remarks that question them cause distress in some folks. But you are now at war with two people in this thread and if people keep piling on you will lose badly.

Let's stick to the issues. The choil sucks. The initial edge performance, on the very things where it was supposed to excel was not quite as good as advertised. That's it in a nutshell. Lukers made a telling observation about the possibility of some remaining carbon from the laser cutting. I'm not screaming "horrible knife! ripoff!" so why are you pretending that someone has said this? It's a pretty good knife despite its faults, only one of which is actually objective at this point and is probably temporary tolerance issues anyhow.

And part of the point is that this should not degenerate into an Ugly Fest which rubs off on Busse, on Andy Prisco and the blade itself. They are above the sort of behavior your are exhibiting, as am I.

My knives are not ersatz penis extentions for me. Do Busse knives perform that function for you? Everyone ELSE knows that I'm either a bit eccentic about the word "combat" and maybe having a growing pain or two with the blade, nothing more. You are acting like there are MAJOR problems and everything I am saying is so true, so terribly true, that you have to try to divert attention away from it.

Come on, guy. Busse is better than that and does not need this kind of "help."

Lukers · Jan 2, 2001

I am sorry to see all these personal attacks going on. Personal attacks aren't necessary because if would be more focused on searching for the facts, (a) we would get some answers and(b)wouldn't have so much tension.
I honestly think that it is the laser cutting that is making Frank's steel heart not perform like it should. When I first got my bm-e, I took it outside and started chopping some really hard wood with it. Really soon the edge was gone and it one spot the edge was rinkled. It was literally bend back and forth in a 3/4 inch area. I was really shocked and kinda peaved. So I called Andy and asked him about it and he said it was laser cutting when the steel right on the very edge doesn't have much for carbon in it. I just took a file and a piece of coarse stone and took a bit of the edge of and that fixed it after I resharpened the edge and did some testing with it. It might be worth a try Frank!
Luke

Hoodoo · Jan 2, 2001

Originally posted by Frank Warren:
Hoodoo, just lose the personal attacks.

Let's stick to the issues.

My knives are not ersatz penis extentions for me. Do Busse knives perform that function for you?

I don't think I need to comment on your logic here do I?

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

Andy Prisco · Jan 2, 2001

This thread has been fun, but it's getting personal....let's bring it back up to the standards which this forum is known for throughout BladeForums and why so many people hang out here...no personal attacks, no flames....just intelligent discussion which can disagree while remaining tactful.

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Yvsa · Jan 2, 2001

:
I didn't buy the E-BM as a combat or fighting knife so the choil factor doesn't bother me. Actually I like being able to choke up on the blade like that.
A simple cure would be to move the plung cut for the edge out about 5/8 of an inch.
That would eliminate Frank's conerns about the choil I would think.

However I do have one major problem with my E-BM and it's that the handle is just too dayumed big for me.
I rounded off the corners of the micarta and that helped, but not enough. I have studied and am continuing to study on the knife before doing anymore modifications to it because I don't want to make a fatal mistake with the handle.
I have decided to go ahead and take the handle down in size and I am going to do it in small careful steps.
I am also going to modify the point somewhat as well to have better penetration.
Warranty concerns don't bother me, because I feel if I do it then it's my responsibility, besides I don't think anyone could hurt the blade unless they took a cutting torch to it.

The Basic #9 I have fits wonderfully and I am using it as a guide in making the decisons for the E-BM.
I have large hands, but short stubby fingers and the problem with the handle is me and not the knife's.
Kind of strange that no one else has had the problem though.
These handles are the largest I have seen on a knife except on very large HI Khukuri's.

Another thing I have done is to lose the original edge grind.
Everyone else may find it easy to maintain, but I sure didn't.
My E-BM now sports a nice even convex edge that for me works very well.
The way I figure it is that if the INFI is that good a steel then a more conventional edge should still hold up longer than the average knife would as far as edge holding goes.
I have it about 12º on each side which makes for a pretty thin edge on this big of a knife.
I have chopped well seasoned cow bone with it and experienced no problems with edge chipping or defomation.
With the NIB edge I did experience a bit of edge rolling on the cow bone.
And working those out a few times convinced me to change the edge grind.

I also have a CS TM and there's no denying that it's good steel, but it hasn't held up in the past to what either Busse knife I have will hold up to.
The kraton handle on my CS TM didn't hold up well to the treatment I exposed it too.
Somehow or somewhen it got a cut in the kraton that was invisible unless you looked really close. It was about 1/4" long and went all the way through letting moisture in which stared the tang to rusting. I have had the original handle off for quite some time awaiting a new steel guard and a micarta handle, something I won't have to worry about with the E-BM anyway.
I don't know yet about the Basic # 9 as yet.

And I agree. Hell they're just a knife and I don't believe any production knife is going to please everyone all the time Busse or not.
Half the fun with knives for me is getting each one I am going to use tweaked to suit myself no matter how good it's supposed to be or how much it costs.
That makes them personal.

The only knife I feel that would possibley fill the bill and not need to be tweaked would be a full fledged custom made especially for me.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

Each person's work is always a portrait of himself.

---- Samuel Butler.

Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Website

OwenM · Jan 2, 2001

I agree, let's bring it up to standard, and lock it, since it is a blatant troll.
If the title didn't make it obvious, then Frank Warren's attacks on Busse, and the members of this forum should have.
Add to this the tone which changes from aggressive to conciliatory, back to aggressive, and so on. Typical troll, generating responses.
This thread is interrupting regular discussion, which I do not always participate in, but do read daily. Nothing constructive here, just a dumbass who tries to impress with his BS about knifefighting, "military experience", and applying Webster to every term, when anyone with real-world experience, or an ounce of common sense, knows that different jobs require different tools, and that it is generally pretty obvious what the proper tools are.

matthew rapaport · Jan 2, 2001

From Tactical Knives...

"There is no question that a combat knife is used thousands of times as a tool for every time it is used as a weapon, even by front line combat troops."

This is the sentiment I was driving at in my last post, and the thing this argument with Frank seems most be hung up upon! Assuming for a moment that having a choil 7.5" back on an otherwise relatively large knife really does make it unsuitable for fighting (and as I've pointed out there are so many other things that make the SHII unsuitable for fighting, that the choil hardly seems that important), the converse, not having the choil, would make the knife far less useful for all those 1000 other chores...

Frank, your dictionary definition of "combat" does not serve well here because while "combat" of necessity involves "fighting", it does not, execpt in unusual circumstances (modern warfare anyway) involve "knife fighting", and there in seems to lie the great debate here...

Lane Dexter · Jan 2, 2001

Owen, I know Frank from a different forum. He wasn't just trolling. I'm sure he likes a "spirited discussion," but his observations and criticisms, right or wrong, were sincere. Still, the thread has about served its purpose, so maybe locking would be alright.

For the record, I'm not ticked off, and I didn't know I ever did any flaming. I made observations and asked questions (which were answered). I am at this point, merely curious. Hey, I was slicing dry Italian salami with the SHII the night before last. Now I wonder if all that grease counts as a preservative for my blade...

I look forward to learning more about my SHII. Maybe someday I'll have more Busse knives, possibly even a folder...

Geoff, I know you'll never hear a true redneck say this, but..... Rasslin' is fake!

I still love Andy's NYC bear ecounter. Encore!

Lane

Hoodoo · Jan 2, 2001

OwenM,

Bullseye.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

Bronco · Jan 3, 2001

Owen,
How dare you impugn the reputation of a man who can arrive at such substantive findings of fact after only a couple dozen whacks.

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Semper Fi

-Bill

rfrost · Jan 3, 2001

YIKES!!! I'm seeing flashbacks of a few infamous Mad Dog threads here....one person says some negative stuff about a knife and all hell breaks loose with people thinking they need to "defend" the knife/knifemaker in question. Personal attacks ensue and flames upon flames get fanned. Cool.

I've owned 2 CS Recon Scouts and several Busses (INFI BM and A2 SH-2). Sold all of them. None of them were what I wanted in a Combat knife. Just my personal preference. That's what this is all about isn't it? Frank seems to prefer the Recon Scout. Others think Busses are the best thing since sliced bread. And you know what? They're right. All of 'em. The Recon Scout IS better....to Frank. Busses ARE the best thing since sliced bread....to those who think so. Opinions are like a$$holes--everyone has one. And like a$$holes, nobody likes another opinion shoved in their face.

PEACE.

--Robert

Frank Warren · Jan 3, 2001

Well, there are two schools of thought here. One is indefensible. I call it a combat knife and combat means something "special" and I've copyrighted and trademarked it and from now on, the word means what *I* say it means. Bill Gates tried this with the word Windows, both copyrighting and trademarking it. Courts threw it out. You can't copyright or trademark an existing word and then sue other for using it. Period. The judge and jury has already spoken on this one, guys, and the most powerful and richest man in America with armies of lawyers can't make that one fly either. End of that story.

That leaves the choil. Some like it. Some don't. That's arguable and depends on whether one thinks one should be able to fight with the knife or whether it is a more general utility tool.

As for the edge performance, it is what it is and as some hopeful voices here have indicated, factory edges are not always the thing one might desire, and there may be temper/composition problems at the very edge if it wasn't ground all that much.

The only losers here are those who can't stand a bit of critique and the usual bad news that not every knife comes from the factory letter perfect every single time.

Hoodoo · Jan 3, 2001

Originally posted by rfrost:
YIKES!!!None of them were what I wanted in a Combat knife. Just my personal preference. That's what this is all about isn't it? Frank seems to prefer the Recon Scout. Others think Busses are the best thing since sliced bread.

Sorry Robert but I disagree. I don't think personal preference is what this is all about. I think what this is all about is whether some people actually know what they are talking about. And it also has to do with attitude. Someone comes in asking for a flame and they get a flame and suddenly everyone is surprised?

There's an old saying: be careful what you ask for you might just get it.

I wouldn't care whether we are talking Busse, Marbles, Cold Steel, Maddog, Dozier, Becker or whatever. If people want to start trashing knives big time like they are some kind of expert while simultaneously insulting EVERYONE, they should at the very least, know what they are talking about. There has to be some credibility. And that's the one thing that was obviously lacking here.

There are lots of ways any of the knife issues that have been brought up here could have been addressed, none of which had to be a troll. But if it walks like a troll and talks like a troll, then troll it is.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM