Is anyone else not so fond of the trend towards bearings?

I'm not happy! I don't like things now compared to the way they used to be! All this progress...PHOOEY!

In my day we didn't have these newfangled bearings that would give you long life and trouble free smoothness in your knives.

We had washers and that's the way we liked it!

[youtube]BbU4Cb4A4-o[/youtube]

I have several bearing knives, and they are much better than the washer knives in terms of smoothness and quickness.

Also, you can just run them under hot water, working the action and that'll clean it up, a couple drops of oil and good to go, just like washers.

I don't get why people are so willing to be against every new thing. Don't buy them if you don't want them.

I do get it, it's called progress and technological advancement.

best

mqqn
 
Other than getting ball bearings to fail by getting gunk in it, has anyone got one to fail by torquing a knife? I doubt it.
 
MIKE969 said:
I have to agree with OP. A well executed washer pivot can be just as smooth as a bearing pivot and is structurally much more solid than a bearing pivot.

Bearings weaken the already weakest point of a knife in 2 ways when compared to a washer system:

- the contact area of a flat washer of the same inner and outer diameter is much larger than that of a bearing system as the lateral and twisting forces are distributed over the entire surface area of the washer vs just a few (5-8) infinitely small contact points with bearings. Bearings will not only wear faster (the blade and handles will wear down in the bearings tracks) but also put much more strain on the surface of the blade and handles that make contact.

- the necessary removal of material in the handles and blade tang to accommodate the much larger bearing system. In every bearing system that I've seen taken apart, huge cavities were hollowed out in the handles and more specifically the blade tang in order to accommodate the much wider bearing system. Removing large quantities of material again at the knife's "weakest" point just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

So you end up with thinner handles and a thinner blade tang that will ultimately wear much faster than the washer system counterpart. No thank you!

I think that a lot of makers use bearings just because that's the latest craze and a lot of folks seem to think that a knife is not "premium" unless it's running on bearings.
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a

Question: What are the top knife makers, who have gobs of data proven engineering experience making good knives, using in their most popular models, ball bearings or bronze washers?

I don't have ball bearings in my Spyderco Gayle Bradley and never have had any problems with mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk0IxU-fuW4

Unlike most things using ball bearings, think cars, a knife isn't running at thousands of rpms where smoothness is critical to avoid failure.

Here is a great video about knife bearing systems that you may enjoy watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlpzjMtKSk
 
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When I have gotten crap in my bearing knives you can feel it for sure but the knife still works. Get home rinse out the pivot, good as new. What I don't understand is all the talk about washer knives being some how impervious to contaminates. Evey time I have gotten grit in my washer knives the particles almost imbed in the bronze and continuing to use the knife permanently marred the washers.
 
GatorFlash1 said:
a

Question: What are the top knife makers, who have gobs of data proved engineering experience making good knives, using in their most popular models, ball bearings or bronze washers?

I don't have ball bearings in my Spyderco Gayle Bradley and never have had any problems with mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk0IxU-fuW4

Unlike most things using ball bearings, think cars, a knife isn't running at thousands of rpms where smoothness is critical to avoid failure.

Here is a great video about knife bearing systems that you may enjoy watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlpzjMtKSk
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That "expert" is showing us what? In his view, a good ole' fashioned washer is the only way a knife can withstand the tremendous torque and side-loading that our thumbs put on a knife when using a thumb stud, and I assume (since I couldn't stand listening to him drone on further) he eventually concluded that bearings can't take such side loading and are not appropriate for a knife.

Anyone who believes that should do some real research and not rely on the information landfill that is youtube.

Can 'ya think of any bearing applications that withstand side loading?

Babbit bearings are designed to run under an oil bath, with a pressurized film of oil that keeps the metal parts from making contact. The expert in that video fails to mention this fact.

best

mqqn
 
mqqn said:
I'm not happy! I don't like things now compared to the way they used to be! All this progress...PHOOEY!

In my day we didn't have these newfangled bearings that would give you long life and trouble free smoothness in your knives.

We had washers and that's the way we liked it!

[youtube]BbU4Cb4A4-o[/youtube]

I have several bearing knives, and they are much better than the washer knives in terms of smoothness and quickness.

Also, you can just run them under hot water, working the action and that'll clean it up, a couple drops of oil and good to go, just like washers.

I don't get why people are so willing to be against every new thing. Don't buy them if you don't want them.

I do get it, it's called progress and technological advancement.

best

mqqn
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Man, you are a kool-aid loving dude. You fail to realize that plenty of people have given this "new technology" a chance and have seen that other methods are better for them. It has nothing to do with being against innovation. That's ridiculous. It's about seeing weak points in a certain design and choosing to go with something else that doesn't have that weak point. They share their findings and in no way deserve someone like you telling them they're wrong. We get it, you love anything and everything a certain company produces regardless if it's actually as good as or better than other designs out there. No reason to get hostile because people say "I don't like this, I've seen this failure or fault in this design, and I choose to go with this." Buy what you want, man, no one's complaining about why YOU want what YOU want. No reason for you to be that way to them.

And no need to reply. It was a rhetorical statement. I don't care to argue with you seeing as I already don't like your stance in this thread or others I've seen. I'm not going to entertain a hostile dialogue with you.
 
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bodog said:
Man, you are a kool-aid loving dude. You fail to realize that plenty of people have given this "new technology" a chance and have seen that other methods are better for them. It has nothing to do with being against innovation. That's ridiculous. It's about seeing weak points in a certain design and choosing to go with something else that doesn't have that weak point. They share their findings and in no way deserve someone like you telling them they're wrong. We get it, you love anything and everything a certain company produces regardless if it's actually as good as or better than other designs out there. No reason to get hostile because people say "I don't like this, I've seen this failure or fault in this design, and I choose to go with this." Buy what you want, man, no one's complaining about why YOU want what YOU want. No reason for you to be that way to them.

And no need to reply. It was a rhetorical statement. I don't care to argue with you seeing as I already don't like your stance in this thread or others I've seen. I'm not going to entertain a hostile dialogue with you.
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I do have a love of Kai stuff, but in this case it's not about Kai products, it's about bearings unless I missed something.

I know I gave you a verbal lashing in the past, get over it, clear your mind.

Now, what is wrong with bearings again?

best

mqqn
 
mqqn said:
I do have a love of Kai stuff, but in this case it's not about Kai products, it's about bearings unless I missed something.

I know I gave you a verbal lashing in the past, get over it, clear your mind.

Now, what is wrong with bearings again?

best

mqqn
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You didn't give me anything. I was told to lay off by a mod because you KAI fans are so hostile and incapable of having a civil discussion without turning it into an argument, just like now. I'm only trying to get you to not knock other people and their views and again you turn it into a fight.

Edit, I was wrong in saying KAI fans. I should have simply said people like you who happen to be fans of KAI.
 
mqqn said:
Now, what is wrong with bearings again?
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They are not the best choice for a high sand/dust/dirt enviornment.

They are not as easy to maintain as a washer system when you have a job that requires you to clean out grit every single workday.
 
I like my Domino. It's very smooth but doesn't feel a whole lot smoother than my Military or Gayle Bradley. I don't see a huge difference.
 
bodog said:
You didn't give me anything. I was told to lay off by a mod because you KAI fans are so hostile and incapable of having a civil discussion without turning it into an argument, just like now. I'm only trying to get you to not knock other people and their views and again you turn it into a fight.

Edit, I was wrong in saying KAI fans. I should have simply said people like you who happen to be fans of KAI.
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And so you refuse to have a discourse on the topic at hand, and instead care to continue your abrasive ways that garnered you a warning in the past.

I like bearings, they are much smoother.

best

mqqn
 
Todd21969 said:
They are not the best choice for a high sand/dust/dirt enviornment.

They are not as easy to maintain as a washer system when you have a job that requires you to clean out grit every single workday.
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Good points, and that is the reason some makers choose the teflon washers over phosphor bronze.

In my personal experience, however, any daily grit or dirt is easily rinsed out of the pivot/bearing and onward and upward.

It is a good point that with other bearing applications there is sometimes a seal involved to keep debris out of the bearing surface.

If you are an operator in sandy areas, maybe a bearing is not right for you, but I personally doubt it would be a point of failure in a pocket knife.

If you have to rinse out a washer system every day due to grit, you can do the same thing with a bearing system with about the same amount of effort, or do you find it more difficult to rinse out a bearing than a washer? More time rinsing the bearing?

Additionally, a washer based pivot REQUIRES lubrication for the knife application, otherwise the knife can quickly become hard to open and close. A bearing does not require lubrication in this application, and thus would not collect as much grit as a washer system with oil on it. If you work in sandy applications, it might be good enough to just have a bearing. Since you are not opening and closing the knife thousands of times an hour, you are not going to wear out the bearing, it will roll and push the grit away to some degree.

I remember packing wheel bearings, now that was a mess, but with a knife I just clean them the same way I do the slip joint I always have with me.

To that point, since I mostly cut apples with my Vic Waiter, the direct-rub bearing surface in that knife is much more prone to fouling with sticky substances than would be a roller bearing pivot.

best

mqqn
 
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mqqn said:
And so you refuse to have a discourse on the topic at hand, and instead care to continue your abrasive ways that garnered you a warning in the past.

I like bearings, they are much smoother.

best

mqqn
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They offer no real increase in performance and represent additional cost. If a company wants my money they need to offer me more than fidget factor to get it.
 
mqqn said:
I do have a love of Kai stuff, but in this case it's not about Kai products, it's about bearings unless I missed something.

I know I gave you a verbal lashing in the past, get over it, clear your mind.

Now, what is wrong with bearings again?

best

mqqn
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I agree with you man, nothing is wrong witht them especially when you consider the environment in which they are being used. People act like the pivot area is holding up a house. You know I have read a lot of BS about bearing knives being weaker and that they cant handle lateral stress or twisting. But since IKBS became popular and even more knives started incorporating bearings in the production world than ever before, I have not seen a single shred of evidence to support these claims. And most of the comparisons showing where bearings have failed in the past are showing them in items so far removed from the stresses that would be seen in the average knife that they simply have no correlation. Comparing failed bearings in anything other than a knife has no merit in the discussion. The conditions and stresses are complete worlds away from each other. Its like these people are saying that aluminum shouldnt be used in a race car because they can crush a pop can on their forehead and its made from the same material. Its nonsense.

Fanglekai said:
I like my Domino. It's very smooth but doesn't feel a whole lot smoother than my Military or Gayle Bradley. I don't see a huge difference.
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That is because spyderco has yet to perfect the detents of their bearing knives. To understand the difference in the actual pivots you need to jam the locking mechanisms of both knives so that the only resistance and friction you are experiencing is that of the actual pivot. If you have a bearing knife with large amounts of lockbar pressure pressing a small bearing in the the tang of the knife it will interrupt any perceived improvements the pivot bearings may have given you.


Todd21969 said:
They are not the best choice for a high sand/dust/dirt enviornment.

They are not as easy to maintain as a washer system when you have a job that requires you to clean out grit every single workday.
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I disgree. In many cases they are easier to clean if you know what you are doing as disassembly is not required to flush them and reapply lubriction. And these videos below show just how impervious to the elements these types of knives can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ptNsbpBnig

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDJn3ozeLLo

Insipid Moniker said:
They offer no real increase in performance and represent additional cost. If a company wants my money they need to offer me more than fidget factor to get it.
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I think this depends on the user and their needs. What doesnt work for you may be perfect for someone else and vice versa. But really that logic could apply to any knife over $150. Anything past that price point and you really arent getting a huge upgrade in performance and its all icing on the cake.
 
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I like bearings better than autos or assisted, but washers will do just fine and I don't see what it really matters which preference you have. I also like autos and assisted just not as much as bearings and washers.
 
mqqn said:
Good points, and that is the reason some makers choose the teflon washers over phosphor bronze.

In my personal experience, however, any daily grit or dirt is easily rinsed out of the pivot/bearing and onward and upward.
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Our personal experiances differ. As do our daily grit/dirt accumulations.

I crew a stone splitter making granite block on the grounds of a open pit gravel mine.

A bearing system is more time consuming to clean. Silica dust is a pain to get out.

Washers and bearings both foul up, neither to failure, but do require more effort to open and close.

I prefer washers.
 
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