Is Busse the new Randall?

[Moosez45]

I handled both, used both.

Randall's are a classic design, made in an era when knives cut stuff. They did it well, well enough to bring a rep and standing that none so far have matched, save probably Bob Loveless.

In every knife, you see some part of a Randall, or vice versa. I prefer metal that can rust and a handle that came from flesh. Seems to fit my idea of what a knife is.

I've got access to my friends RMK 14, 26, 3, and 28. They are all users and have seen some use. My least favorite is the 14, with my favorite going to the 3.

I want a Model 5-5.

I couldn't tell you a single model of Busse without going to look it up, 'cept maybe the CABS, because a friend named it.

Randall, never to be topped for what they are. 'Cept by maybe Bob Loveless.

Moose

 

[goodeyesniper]

When you need to chop up cinder blocks to use as kindling, while cutting heavy gauge nails in half for sustenance, you'll be sorry you chose a Randall over a Busse....

Is Busse the new Randall? I don't even know how to fracking pronounce 'Busse', so I'm going to go ahead and say no. And I'm a so called "knife knut".

Busse is very good at what they do. However, I'm of the strong opinion that "what they do" is pretty nonsensical and over the top. Like has been mentioned, Randall Made Knives were top of the line, back when a knife needed to work well, period. And they did. With resounding success.

In the age of highschoolers doing youtube reviews, spine whack tests, destruction tests, nutnfancy, etc... these Randalls may seem overly dainty. But in the real world of users, I don't think you could go wrong. Saying that, of course you are paying for much more than "performance" with Randalls, there are much cheaper knives that will work as well.

 

[dingy]

Yes, I used them.
I found the factory edge to be not nearly what was advertised.
A simple tin can dented the edge on the vaunted Steel Heart's convex edge which was purported to be practically indestructible.
Totally not impressed. I wouldn't buy another one. Certainly not for what they are costing now.
The fuss never came alive for me.

may you show me your tin can and the dented SH? do you have pics?


dingy

 

[twl]

may you show me your tin can and the dented SH? do you have pics?


dingy

Dude, it was about 15 years ago. I didn't even have a computer then. Or a camera.
If you don't believe it, then try it.
It will dent the edge, and that's a fact.

Here's how it's done.
You take the knife off the table, and it slips out of your hand from waist-height, and lands on a #10 tin can next to your foot, with the edge of the knife landing on the rim of the can.
Result: Dented Busse edge. Tin can survives virtually unscathed. Barely a mark.

Now, here's the really amazing part.
I can dent an edge of my 1075 $29 knife just as easily as that. So, I don't need to spend $300 or more, just so I can get a dented edge.
IF I spent $300 for an "indestructible knife", and it didn't get a dent in the edge, then I'd feel good about spending the $300 for good results.
Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, so I now buy knives in 1075 or 1095 for much less money, and they do just as well.
There is no "indestructible knife" that can go thru hell and back and without damage, no matter how much you pay. I learned that with the help of a Steel Heart and a Badger Attack along the way.

 

[Gator97]

...
I found the factory edge to be not nearly what was advertised.
A simple tin can dented the edge on the vaunted Steel Heart's convex edge which was purported to be practically indestructible.

Hmm, I think it's the knife that is advertised as indestructible, not the edge. If later was true, you wouldn't need to sharpen it, ever...
Other than that, it's quite simple physics. 58-60HRC edge dropped, most likely impact angle wasn't perpendicular, so you go the dent.

Here's how it's done.
You take the knife off the table, and it slips out of your hand from waist-height, and lands on a #10 tin can next to your foot, with the edge of the knife landing on the rim of the can.
Result: Dented Busse edge. Tin can survives virtually unscathed. Barely a mark.

Even easier, grab a small rock and try to chop it in half with any knife, dents and chips are guaranteed.

Now, here's the really amazing part.
I can dent an edge of my 1075 $29 knife just as easily as that. So, I don't need to spend $300 or more, just so I can get a dented edge.

Well, if your goal is to dent edges, certainly, it's far more cost effective to stick with 1075 or better yet, 420 or 301 steel...

IF I spent $300 for an "indestructible knife", and it didn't get a dent in the edge, then I'd feel good about spending the $300 for good results.

Again, you're mixing up indestructible knives and edges. Nobody promised indestructible edges, save for those miracle knives on late night TV shows.

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, so I now buy knives in 1075 or 1095 for much less money, and they do just as well.

Can you be more specific? What exactly do they do "just as well"? Dent just as well?
From personal experience, I have dozens of 300$ and more expensive knives and I'd be willing to bet that neither 1075 nor 1095 will not be able to keep up with them neither in cutting performance, nor in edge durability for various types of use, especially from 20-30$ price range.

There is no "indestructible knife" that can go thru hell and back and without damage, no matter how much you pay. I learned that.

True, there is not. It's about whether the knife survives it or not.

 

[midnight flyer]

I love it. The discussion of whether or not Busse will become a classic along the lines of Randall and possibly assume its same proportion of legacy has devolved into a pedantic, nit picky examination of semantics and personal interpretations of someone's post.

"Even easier, grab a small rock and try to chop it in half with any knife, dents and chips are guaranteed."

"Well, if your goal is to dent edges, certainly, it's far more cost effective to stick with 1075 or better yet, 420 or 301 steel..."

"Again, you're mixing up indestructible knives and edges. Nobody promised indestructible edges, save for those miracle knives on late night TV shows."

Absolute pearls of posting, no doubt.

Robert

 

[twl]

Well, a knife IS an edge. Without an edge, it's NOT a knife.
I have a crowbar that will out-pry a Busse, if you don't want to talk about edges.

All I'm saying is that I find 100% as good results with a very reasonably priced knife in a decent carbon steel, that cuts as well, lasts as long, pries open doors just as nicely, and can get the edge damaged just as easily. If it gets dull, I sharpen it. If it dents, or gets really damaged, I buy another one for a very reasonable cost.
I don't need to spend the extra money.
It's a cult knife. Kool-aid.
Not that it's bad or anything. It's just not what people try to make it out to be.
If I really felt the need for that kind of knife again, I'd buy a Becker. I don't even own any Beckers now, because I buy Condor for even less. But Condor doesn't have that Busse shape or style, so if I wanted that I'd buy a Becker. I will not spend $300+ on any fixed blade "survival knife" again. That's from my experience, and not kool-aid.
I'm sorry if that puts some people's noses out of joint. I bought them, used them, found out what they can do, and sold them. Won't buy again.

 

[Gator97]

I love it. The discussion of whether or not Busse will become a classic along the lines of Randall and possibly assume its same proportion of legacy has devolved into a pedantic, nit picky examination of semantics and personal interpretations of someone's post.

Hmm, interesting. By the same token, the post to which I responded had very little to do with Busse vs. Randall, yet you seem to be fine with that. And considering that Randall would've dented just as well under the same circumstances, I see no reason why would you consider them as something special either(using the same criteria - dents).

As for the nitpicking... Apparently you prefer very broad, vague statements like "1075 can do just as well as 300$+ knives" (what?), in that case yeah, sorry, we do differ. I'm not sure I see why that is a problem though, a knife to me is a tool, with certain properties and performance criteria. If you are buying them as artwork, that's your choice, but I do need some facts as usual. In either case, opinion is just as valid.

To clarify, (and perhaps upset you even further), I wasn't referring to Busses alone when I wrote about 300$+ knives, and I have little interest whether or not Busses will become next Randalls or not, it's purely subjective. Simply, I was objecting to broad, misleading statements like 1075 having the same performance as any 300$+ knife. If you want to accept those w/o questioning, more power to you, but I don't.

Absolute pearls of posting, no doubt.

You're flattering me But glad UR happy...

Well, a knife IS an edge. Without an edge, it's NOT a knife.

A knife is also steel, heat treatment, blade, handle, geometry, etc...

I have a crowbar that will out-pry a Busse, if you don't want to talk about edges.

I suspect dropping the knife on the tin cans isn't proper knife use either.

All I'm saying is that I find 100% as good results with a very reasonably priced knife in a decent carbon steel, that cuts as well, lasts as long, pries open doors just as nicely,

Well, thanks for narrowing down the scope, however, I doubt that part "cuts as well, lasts as long" but then again, I dunno what you are doing with your knives.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I repeat:

The way I see it is there are the folks who want the BEST and there are the folks who want the BEST VALUE. The two are almost always very different things and in very different price brackets. With any quality good you reach a point of diminishing returns where you pay increasingly large sums of money for rapidly decreasing gains in performance. I happen to like maximizing my performance per dollar ratio, and the items I like to carry on my site reflect that I think. Others like to have the very best money can buy, and that's just dandy. There's nothing wrong with having the best, providing you can afford it and it makes you happy.

Busse ranks in the "BEST" category, while many other knives rank in the "BEST VALUE" category while being able to handle 99% of the real world situations that a Busse gets used for. Nothing wrong with it, but that extra 1% comes at a steep price. Some folks legitimately need that extra 1% and some just want it and are willing to pay. Either way, it's their dime and I salute them for buying whatever pleases them best.

 

[tltt]

No, Busse will not be the new Randall anytime soon, and that's not a slap at Busse.

Randall has or had several things going for it that Busse doesn't-

1) Randall was lucky when he was building the brand, there were only a small handful of custom makers coming up, you could literally count the name ones on your hands and still have a finger or two left. Now you've got piles of boutique brands nipping at your heels.

2) Bo understood publicity, and not just narrow market publicity, but big publicity, while most makers hated publicity or were indifferent to it, Bo was getting into the big magazines, newspapers, etc...... Through that, the knives made it into President's hands, King's hands, Famous actors and novelists hands, General's hands. There was even a somewhat famous country song written about them.

Heck, if it wasn't for a disagreement with Stallone, the original Rambo knife was to be a Randall.

Now I know there is probably some guys out there rolling their eyes going "We gots the Youtubes, forums, etc......", but it still isn't close to the semi captive audience Randall had during those years.

And that publicity doesn't just die........

Every year there are still a few articles and 1000's of mentions, etc...... all over the place. You go to military forums there are fathers buying them for sons, guys buying them because their dad had one or their commanding officer had one, etc........ Similar things happen on gun forums and outdoor boards too. And that is important, because it's not just knife guys that are buying them or old men, but a broad market.

Also I see these little jabs about safe queens, etc...... Meh. If you get down to it by sheer numbers there are probably
more Randalls seeing actual woods time than Busse, and you seldom hear complaints, even Cliff Stamp dug them.

And if you want to get more base than that, there are 10's millions of mil. surplus and cheap sporting goods knives that regular people like, and use with nary a complaint, but that'a another argument for another time.

As far as numbers/prices go, here's what I've seen-

Generally stock new Randalls seem to average 20% - 30% over retail when they sell. Slightly older ones a decent bit more, and the really old...... Well.

The wait time is right around 4 1/2 years right now, and always getting longer, and longer for the right reasons, because the orders keep coming in. The company averages around 5000 knives a year give or take a few hundred each year.

So it's a good bet they won't be unseated soon.

 

[TriviaMonster]

My mom knows what a Randall knife is and how valuable they are. She knows almost nothing about knives yet has heard of Randalls. In fact I know many non-knife nuts who know what Randall's are. I even know some who have one or two. As far as Busse goes, they just don't have the following Randall does. But it's not quite an apples to apples comparison either. Both sure are great knives though.

 

[jdm61]

Are you saying that you wouldn't wait years if you could get say a Kevin Cashen O1 bowie for the price of an average Randall? LOL

Why I have to wait years and pay hundreds of dollars for a piece 01 steel?.....I don't get the fuss Too! I never see INFI as a supersteel, INFI to me is a new steel wich is better than 01 and hold the edge much longer than 01 or 1095. ' Of course many other steels that have a better edge Retention than INFI but they're too brittle in comparison. Something on the line S30,35,60,90V great edge retention for foldersthey don't come cheap too
Whats so special about INFI....INFI is an impact steel, wich can take abuse like nothing in use on the market to day.
Is Busse better than Randall, in many way Yes. Is Busse the new Randall, No...But Busse use novation materials, Randall do Not".

Is the son of your son, son the New You

 

[jdm61]

What they didn't say was the the cat had a Randall Model 15.

I have never seen a knife forum that has redefined what a knife is so completely. Nor have I ever seen such a divided group of individuals that worry so much about the performance of their knives. Then I laugh my butt off when I see something like this:

By cuddling with her cat, woman is found alive after more than three weeks lost in New Mexico forest
by Alex Ballingall on Monday, March 12, 2012 8:23am

As tales of survival go, this one is pretty impressive. A 41-year-old woman named Margaret Page went missing after she and her cat Miya veered off a hiking trail and got lost in the Gila National Forest in New Mexico. As for supplies, she had a bag of pretzels, some cat food and a sleeping bag.

That was more than three weeks ago.

With whipping winds and temperatures dipping below freezing, Page managed to stay alive by huddling with Miya every night in her blue sleeping bag. When rescuers finally found her, Page was emaciated and weak, but well-hydrated. Apparently, she was able to survive on water from a nearby creek.

The cat, meanwhile, remained relatively lively thanks to the spoils of its daily hunting. “Her cat was in better shape than she was,” Marc Levesque of the New Mexico State Police Search and Rescue told the Associated Press.

As her rescuers carried her away to a waiting ambulance, Page’s main concern was the well-being of her cat Miya. Without its body heat and camaraderie, she might never have left that New Mexico forest.


I would be willing to bet she never saw a zombie (much less killed one), chopped wood to make a shelter, split/batoned wood for a fire, tied her knife to a stick for a spear for hunting/fishing/protection, lit a fire with a glob shooting fire steel struck by her high carbon knife, used the special indent on the scales of a knife as a friction fire spindle pivot, punched holes into a car hood or any of the other things we anticipate we might need should we wander off trail.

And she survived in freezing weather for three frickin' weeks!!!

I would never post those comments in another area of this site. If I did, no doubt there would be a lot of hurt feelings. Some prize utility of a knife much, much more than any refinement. And besides, who really knows when their knife may be called to duty for the tasks mentioned above?

Although I am not a huge fan of Randall knives, I certainly love some of their designs. Time tested, refined, and their knives run the gamut of useful and effective hunting knives all the way to that gorgeous fighter you just bought. And never, ever have I heard of a Randall knife failing when being used, even used hard, as a knife.

As noted here, these are two distinctly different companies with two distinctly different audiences.

Robert

P.S.: I'll be watching for the review...

 

[killgar]

I'm curious to know exactly what people are doing with their Busse knives. I've heard of people talking about how great they are for chopping wood but, I've had great wood-chopping results with a $20 hatchet. But I guess that using a hatchet to chop wood excludes me from the ranks of the "Knife Knuts". Considering how much money I've saved using a hatchet, I can live without such a title.

I keep hearing people talk about the ability to chop through cinder blocks with a Busse. They speak of this as a reason for buying one. Does anyone actually believe that they will ever be in a situation where they need to do such a thing? The only situation I can think of would be if you were trapped in a collapsed building and needed to chop a new door through a wall. But then, what are the chances you would have your Busse with you.

Just my personal opinion but, when I think "Busse" I think of backyard-ninjas or sofa-ninjas who want a knife that can cut a car in half. When I think of "Randall knives" I think of Vietnam Vets I've known who took their tools seriously because they knew their lives might depend on them. I think of the quiet dignity they carry/carried themselves with and how they would laugh at the thought of using a knife, any knife, to chop cinder blocks.

To me, Busse=hype, Randall=dignified history. I'd trade a Busse for a Randall any day.

Just my opinions, no need for anyone to get their shorts in a knot over them. Feel free to disregard.

 

[OldPhysics]

One thing that I will say about Randall is that they may be old, crusty and collectable, BUT the optional "border patrol" handle that you can get on knives like the Model 14, 15, and 16 was a really good design for it's time and still is, IMO. MUCH better than the standard finger groove handle. They are still relevant in many ways although I say they could be MUCH more so just by upgrading their heat treatment for O1 and bagging the stainless that they use. The classic designs are still sound, but something like high temp salt pot HT on the O1 could truly bring them as far into the 21st century as they could stand.

I did not know that (border patrol handle). Thank you, Joe.

 

[singularity35]

Is Randall the old Busse?

 

[ron mathews]

I've been monitoring this thread because I'm pretty much a Randall fanboy, wondering if there was any way I might make a meaningful contribution. I'm still not sure if that's possible.

First of all, I don't know much about Busse knives other than what I've read and seen here on BF. However, based on the positive press and the maker's following (I've had to push myself through a Busse throng more than once to get down an isle at Blade), it has to be one hell of a knife! That said, I think there's been sufficient testimonials over the years to say that Randalls have been fit for their intended purpose.

This was my Dad's 3-6 that he bought from Bo shortly after he returned from the European Theater in late '45. He used it fishing and hunting throughout the 40's and 50's. He then bequeathed it to me and I used it fishing and hunting for three more decades before I retired it in the 90's, as you would a good racehorse when he's put his heart into every race. After almost 70 years, I'd still walk into the woods with confidence if I had it hanging on my belt:

The knife will be handed down to one of my grandsons when it's clear to me which one has the most interest and respect for it. I'm hoping that grandson will continue to pass the torch.

If my Dad had bought a Busse (and not a Randall in 1945), I think I'd feel just as good about that Busse as I do about the Randall. Many times a choice is made for personal reasons. Randalls have stood the test of time. I sincerly hope Busse knives pass that test as well. One cannot have too many choices when it comes to a good knife.

As far as the OP's question, I agree with Ken44 "There will never be a "new" Randall. Nothing will ever replace the history that goes along with Randall".

Speaking of, I've seen a lot of photographs of famous people carrying Randalls over the years, but this one showed up on a Randall forum a week and a half ago that was new to me. I'd like to share it:

Best,

 

[kurodrago]

Dude, it was about 15 years ago. I didn't even have a computer then. Or a camera.
If you don't believe it, then try it.
It will dent the edge, and that's a fact.

.....................................


DUDE, I tried not just for 1 or 2 hours, but for 8 consecutive hours and I DID NOT had any dent on the Edge One of us is lying:unconscious:

[/QUOTE]

 

[kurodrago]

Are you saying that you wouldn't wait years if you could get say a Kevin Cashen O1 bowie for the price of an average Randall? LOL

I do not wait more than six months, for real

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Given that it was a fall off a table edge first onto the thin rolled rim of the can, a ding makes sense to me with any knife.