Is Busse the new Randall?

[dingy]

Dude, it was about 15 years ago. I didn't even have a computer then. Or a camera.
If you don't believe it, then try it.
It will dent the edge, and that's a fact.

Here's how it's done.
You take the knife off the table, and it slips out of your hand from waist-height, and lands on a #10 tin can next to your foot, with the edge of the knife landing on the rim of the can.
Result: Dented Busse edge. Tin can survives virtually unscathed. Barely a mark.

Now, here's the really amazing part.
I can dent an edge of my 1075 $29 knife just as easily as that. So, I don't need to spend $300 or more, just so I can get a dented edge.
IF I spent $300 for an "indestructible knife", and it didn't get a dent in the edge, then I'd feel good about spending the $300 for good results.
Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, so I now buy knives in 1075 or 1095 for much less money, and they do just as well.
There is no "indestructible knife" that can go thru hell and back and without damage, no matter how much you pay. I learned that with the help of a Steel Heart and a Badger Attack along the way.

do you still have that knife ?

may be i wanna try it again with my style, if you traded it to me with a good price.
dingy

ps: i wanta get your tough can too.

 

[midnight flyer]

FortyTwoBlades, don't you understand what you've done!!! You have dared to question the almighty invincibility of that god of knifedom known as BUSSE!!! Busse owners would find it less offensive if you questioned their sexuality, the honor of their mothers, or their patriotism.

What were you thinking.

I fear for your safety my friend. I imagine a black van loaded with "Busse boys" just waiting to grab you and take you away for "re-education".

Stay safe brother. Watch your back.

No kidding. I hope someone doesn't link this to the Busse forum. Yikes!

Some have a pretty good sense of humor and like the product for what it is - a really great knife. But some... and there are always those guys... think that Jerry and crew are their family, and would donate a kidney (maybe even a heart!) if asked.

When the RAT guys were here, it was the same thing. For $100, you could be part of an internet loyalist family (clothing patch not included) that just couldn't tolerate doubters, questions, or *gasp* someone that wasn't as thrilled with the RAT brand as they were. I remember the fastest growing, nastiest threads were pointed at the guys that didn't drink the KoolAid. They eventually became so misunderstood and so rabid to outsiders they created their own forum.

I talked to one of the vendors on this forum about that, and he was friends with Mike and crew (the RAT designers - pre ESEE), and even they didn't understand the rabid nature of their fanboys.

That's ok. I've got machetes stuffed in every nook and cranny of the house. My s*** is secured!

Seriously, though, I mean no disrespect--I just call it as I see it. I'm far from infallible so take my word for what it is--Busse makes a mighty fine knife that is clearly worth the money to a lot of fine people. They just aren't worth it for me. Something tells me our good man Jerry isn't going to lose any sleep over that, either. :thumbup:

Watch out - Busse ninjas may be coming to your house!!

As for your later comments, couldn't agree more. And like your earlier post said, if folks want to spend their money on those blades, why not? Seems harmless enough to me.

Personally, I am always weighing utility value to the dollars spent. I am not a collector, and almost all my knives have to go to work with me. I have to consider that I will be using the knife for, the convenience of carry, and how many real tears I will cry if it gets damaged or ruined doing its job.

If someone wants to buy a knife or anything else based on what they think they could do with it, isn't that why folks buy cool sports cars (hey - they could have driven professionally) and super accurized hunting rifles when they live in brush country, and big mud stompin' trucks two feet off the ground when they only use it to go to the sporting goods store and work?

I don't see any difference.

People should buy what they want, be satisfied, and respect the judgement of others enough to think they made a good decision for themselves.

Robert

 

[Gator97]

Personally, I am always weighing utility value to the dollars spent.

As someone who gets upset about others being "pedantic" and "nitpicking" in relation to knives, I'm just curious, how do you "weigh utility value to the dollars spent"? Fast and loose? Especially if you need those knives to work.

 

[hardheart]

Busse ranks in the "BEST" category, while many other knives rank in the "BEST VALUE" category while being able to handle 99% of the real world situations that a Busse gets used for. Nothing wrong with it, but that extra 1% comes at a steep price. Some folks legitimately need that extra 1% and some just want it and are willing to pay. Either way, it's their dime and I salute them for buying whatever pleases them best.

Best at what? Steel properties are not the best, edge geometry is not the best, chopping is not the best, prying is not the best. A knife is marginal at anything. Saws, axes, chainsaws, prybars, hammers, scalpels, ultramicrotome blades, razors, etc. do it all better, we just don't want to carry them all. In the compromise that is a knife, something is always lost in exchange for something else.

 

[d762nato]

Yes, I used them.
I found the factory edge to be not nearly what was advertised.
A simple tin can dented the edge on the vaunted Steel Heart's convex edge which was purported to be practically indestructible.
Totally not impressed. I wouldn't buy another one. Certainly not for what they are costing now.
The fuss never came alive for me.

Chance's were if it was an older Busse it was A-2 or a different steel altogether that Busse was using in the early days.
I doubt it was Infi, where's Cliff when you need him.

 

[Buffalohump]

I was just going to say, I doubt Busse was using INFI 15 years ago, it was probably A2.

Chance's were if it was an older Busse it was A-2 or a different steel altogether that Busse was using in the early days.
I doubt it was Infi, where's Cliff when you need him.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

When the RAT guys were here, it was the same thing. For $100, you could be part of an internet loyalist family (clothing patch not included) that just couldn't tolerate doubters, questions, or *gasp* someone that wasn't as thrilled with the RAT brand as they were. I remember the fastest growing, nastiest threads were pointed at the guys that didn't drink the KoolAid. They eventually became so misunderstood and so rabid to outsiders they created their own forum.

Robert

The funny thing is that Jeff and Mike totally don't care for the whole cult following phenomenon, and that's one of the things that draws people into the fan club??? This is coming from RAT Pack #6 out of nearly (or over?) a thousand. I like ESEE knives, and think they provide a good value--I'm even an active member on their forum--but I don't really get the whole rabid aspect of being a fan. No company makes all the best choices for every situation, so it gets a little frustrating sometimes when someone asks for a knife suggestion and fanboys jump in with suggestions that are less than ideal just so they can post their personal favorite fill-in-the-blank. Sometimes your favorite IS a good choice for the situation, but thinking outside your preferred brand is healthy. Busse/kin is fortunate in that it produces lots of different knives with varying specifications and intended purposes, but often times they're suggested without taking into consideration the factors of their limited availability, lack of factory sheaths, and high secondary market prices.

Best at what? Steel properties are not the best, edge geometry is not the best, chopping is not the best, prying is not the best. A knife is marginal at anything. Saws, axes, chainsaws, prybars, hammers, scalpels, ultramicrotome blades, razors, etc. do it all better, we just don't want to carry them all. In the compromise that is a knife, something is always lost in exchange for something else.

Best will always be a subjective thing but in this case you might look at it in the sense of "premium" or "ultra-performance" like a sports car or overclocked custom gaming computer. Naturally a Lamborghini is NOT the best choice for muddin'. But if you simply asked the average person who made the "best" motor vehicles, Lamborghini or Jeep, without specifying any user requirements I think most folks wouldn't be picking Jeep. You know what I mean?

 

[hardheart]

Best will always be a subjective thing but in this case you might look at it in the sense of "premium" or "ultra-performance" like a sports car or overclocked custom gaming computer. Naturally a Lamborghini is NOT the best choice for muddin'. But if you simply asked the average person who made the "best" motor vehicles, Lamborghini or Jeep, without specifying any user requirements I think most folks wouldn't be picking Jeep. You know what I mean?

Understood, I just look at the Busses more like Grand Cherokees with a hemi, to stick with the car analogy. Fast? Kinda. Off-road capable? Slightly. Fastest or best for mudding? No, but a decent compromise if you aren't looking for the specialized/optimized tool. Are they the best big knife? Could be, but depends on what you're doing with the knife. Machetes are sometimes better. Best little knife? I really don't think the fatty models come close to that. The anorexics are still really thick compared to most working knives. I've owned a few SYKCOs, not rats or hogs, so maybe they make slightly more knife-like models out of the custom shop or in examples that are unlike the street scrapper, dumpster mutt, or regulator.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Understood, I just look at the Busses more like Grand Cherokees with a hemi, to stick with the car analogy. Fast? Kinda. Off-road capable? Slightly. Fastest or best for mudding? No, but a decent compromise if you aren't looking for the specialized/optimized tool. Are they the best big knife? Could be, but depends on what you're doing with the knife. Machetes are sometimes better. Best little knife? I really don't think the fatty models come close to that. The anorexics are still really thick compared to most working knives. I've owned a few SYKCOs, not rats or hogs, so maybe they make slightly more knife-like models out of the custom shop or in examples that are unlike the street scrapper, dumpster mutt, or regulator.

Yeah I kind of find them, geometrically, to be WAY too thick (even in their thin examples) compared to what I like to use. Thin blades can take a ton of punishment with the right heat treatment. Just look at machetes! So I never understood the massive thickness in a knife line purported to have tremendously tough steel.

 

[OldPhysics]

It's a case of thin edge vs. thin edge. Doesn't take much, honestly. All I know is I cringe at the idea, for instance, of taking a knife and chopping directly into the raised rim of a steel can.

An exaggerated example: A shovel has a lower RC hardness than a knife. But chopping into the edge of a shovel with a knife is going to damage that edge. Perhaps quite badly, even.

Absolutely. That's a lot of force in a very small area = high pressure = high instantaneous stress.

I don't go around trying to make the edges of my knives chip or turn, but it's not hard to do.

 

[midnight flyer]

The funny thing is that Jeff and Mike totally don't care for the whole cult following phenomenon, and that's one of the things that draws people into the fan club??? This is coming from RAT Pack #6 out of nearly (or over?) a thousand. I like ESEE knives, and think they provide a good value--I'm even an active member on their forum--but I don't really get the whole rabid aspect of being a fan.

That's what I said in my post.

There is a vendor on this forum that is a great guy that has sold me 3 - 4 knives. I called him on his cell phone to chat as I wanted to know about another knife, a RAT 7 which is an Ontario product, but in D2. We had a great talk, and he told me at that time he had spoken at length to Mike Perrin because he was looking to start carrying the ESEE products on his website.

In his conversation, Mike thought the rabid fan had gone beyond his comfort zone, and that he just wanted to make the best knife he could without being silly about it. He
told my vendor buddy that he was over the whole "Ontario RAT vs New RAT to be ESEE"
and that all was well. According to him, Mike told him that life was too short to carry on with the B.S. surrounding all that, and that he had even come to easy speaking terms with the Ontario folks. My guys said that he had even seen Mike laughing and talking with his old buds at the Ontario table at SHOT, so that lets you know the caliber of folks at Ontario and of Mike, too.

But his minions.... sheesh. They never let anything go. A mention of Ontario anything, and there was a blizzard of foul posts denigrating Ontario knives. Mike even stepped in to mitigate that a couple of times, but to no avail.

Best will always be a subjective thing but in this case you might look at it in the sense of "premium" or "ultra-performance" like a sports car or overclocked custom gaming computer. Naturally a Lamborghini is NOT the best choice for muddin'. But if you simply asked the average person who made the "best" motor vehicles, Lamborghini or Jeep, without specifying any user requirements I think most folks wouldn't be picking Jeep. You know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean, and I agree wholeheartedly. I am not in a position to buy more than I need. As a contractor, I try to fit the tool to the job, and not vice versa. If a 2 1/4 hp router will cut the edges and moldings I need and costs $275 for a well made sturdy model, I don't need to spend $500 for a couple of features I might never use. Same with a recip saw, circular saw, dust collectors, sanders, and on an on.

I have a couple of knives that are really just guilty pleasures, but most are looked at as nice tools to me.

I certainly understand the guys that buy what they want just because they want it. But their choice doesn't make that product right for everyone or necessarily make it a superior product for all.

We're on the same page.

Robert

 

[sodak]

FortyTwoBlades, don't you understand what you've done!!! You have dared to question the almighty invincibility of that god of knifedom known as BUSSE!!! Busse owners would find it less offensive if you questioned their sexuality, the honor of their mothers, or their patriotism.

Ain't that the truth!

do you still have that knife ?

may be i wanna try it again with my style, if you traded it to me with a good price.
dingy

ps: i wanta get your tough can too.

Buy your own, there's Busse's always for sale.

I was just going to say, I doubt Busse was using INFI 15 years ago, it was probably A2.

Not mine, read below.

When I bought my first Busse, over 10 years ago, it was a SH-E. The very first thing I did to test that edge was put a beer bottle cap on a 2x4 and chop it in half. I'm talking about a 1/5th power swing, if that. The factory half convex edge rippled and dented. That's when I learned not to believe the hype.

Absolutely. That's a lot of force in a very small area = high pressure = high instantaneous stress.

I don't go around trying to make the edges of my knives chip or turn, but it's not hard to do.

You are absolutely correct. Keep in mind, however, that back then, lot's of people were reporting ZERO damage from this kind of activity, which is why I chopped that beer cap - to see if they were right. They were wrong. If you search the Busse forums, lots of folks still claim that INFI will NOT chip. Period. I'll bet I can make it chip if I want to.

It's too bad, I still like the steel, but all the hyperbole detracts from the conversation. Big time.

 

[cricketdave]

I like Randalls and Busse and Esee, bunch of others too. The Randalls I've had were just spectacular in fit and finish and felt perfect and came with a really well made sheath. The Busse's really well made in a completely different style. Same for many other brands. They all cut stuff.

I was surprised at how well the infi on a hell razor held up, rather than having a thick edge it is nicely con vexed and does cut really well. Held up with no ripples dents or anything chopping one of those giant jaw breakers in half, I expected some damage but didn't get any.

Randalls will always hold a special place for me, even though a scumbag stole the 2 I had.

 

[Raymond1000]

Many posts in this thread say Busse knives are over-thick. And indeed some are. But…

All the knives I’ve had from all three companies, have been either 1/4" thick or 3/16” thick. It’s not as though you can’t get Busse knives of that thickness.

All the knives I’ve had from Randall have been either ¼” thick or 3/16” thick.

Busse makes thicker knives. Randall makes thicker knives.

I’m not seeing a lot of difference here.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

We're on the same page.

Robert

Sounds like it! :thumbup:

 

[gomipile]

I'd have to say it would be impossible for a company with Busse's business model to fill the role that Randall filled. A key feature of Randall's business model is the ability to order extras of the same knife years later, with the same steel, fittings, heat treatment, etc. If a soldier's buddy can't order the exact same knife new from the maker, then that knife's manufacturer is not "the new Randall" to my way of thinking.

This is in no way a criticism of Busse. Busse has found a business model which works for them, and if that keeps them in the knife making business and keeps their customers happy, then that is great. I'm just stating the fact that Randall's reputation was built on word of mouth. One soldier has a great knife, and another wants one just like it, or just the way the second soldier needs. A maker which only offers one or two models at a time can't grow a reputation quite that way through the primary market.

 

[Gator97]

The way I see it is there are the folks who want the BEST and there are the folks who want the BEST VALUE.

Folks who want the best, as usual try to get that best at the best value, don't they Besides, what is "best value" is rather subjective. If I have to spend 5x more time on sharpening the hypothetical "best value" knife to maintain it in a good shape, to me that's not exactly a good value even if it is 5 times cheaper, if I have to use 5x times more force to make the same cut, because budget steel dictates thicker edge, to me, not a good value.
My time is also valuable to me. I've used enough knives not to believe in statements about 20+ year old, intensively used knives that needed very few sharpenings.

With any quality good you reach a point of diminishing returns where you pay increasingly large sums of money for rapidly decreasing gains in performance.

True. Although, in knife world as in any other, performance is not the only thing increasing the value. Randalls for example, 01 steel, around 56-58HRC... Definitely not at that point when performance becomes too expensive.

...so it gets a little frustrating sometimes when someone asks for a knife suggestion and fanboys jump in with suggestions that are less than ideal just so they can post their personal favorite fill-in-the-blank.

It goes both ways. I don't think it's any different when 10xx carbon steel(or 420HC, 440C) fans "jump in" with suggestions and wild stories about their favorite budget knife, outperforming (or performing on the same level) as CPM S90V, S110V, INFI, CPM 3V, M390, and so on... Blanket statements like my 20$ knife can do everything just as well as 400$ knife can. Revelations like "and then I've learned simple carbon steel can do better". At best, based on using one or two factory knives with stock edges, more often based on nothing. Then you get weekly threads about steel snobs and knife snobs. By the same crowd.
So, using your car analogy, 1950 Ford owner proudly claims that his car can do anything just as well as 2012 Lamborghini. Yeah, if you describe it vaguely enough it does sound like truth, it'll get you from point A to point B, faster than a horse or on foot. But obviously it's not the truth.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Folks who want the best, as usual try to get that best at the best value, don't they Besides, what is "best value" is rather subjective. If I have to spend 5x more time on sharpening the hypothetical "best value" knife to maintain it in a good shape, to me that's not exactly a good value even if it is 5 times cheaper, if I have to use 5x times more force to make the same cut, because budget steel dictates thicker edge, to me, not a good value.
My time is also valuable to me. I've used enough knives not to believe in statements about 20+ year old, intensively used knives that needed very few sharpenings.

As long as you're not obsessing about getting tp-slicing edges softer steels aren't really going to take too long to touch up. My Opinel No.8 in carbon steel only takes a couple quick swipes with a fine Diafold to get back to a nice fine working edge. I think your ratios are a bit hyperbolic, with all due respect. And budget steel doesn't require a thicker edge so long as it's still cutlery grade and has a good heat treatment. Hell--Kershaw used the much-denigrated 440A for YEARS before switching to 12C27 and folks loved them anyway. I keep a 30-degree inclusive on my 1075 and 1055 machetes and rarely have to sharpen them in spite of frequent use in a high-impact manner. My AUS-8 knives all have a similarly thin edge on them and have never dented or rolled on me. Same goes for the 4116 Krupp on my Pocket Bushman that I EDC.

True. Although, in knife world as in any other, performance is not the only thing increasing the value. Randalls for example, 01 steel, around 56-58HRC... Definitely not at that point when performance becomes too expensive.

I...don't understand what you're saying? Sorry--could you rephrase it?

It goes both ways. I don't think it's any different when 10xx carbon steel(or 420HC, 440C) fans "jump in" with suggestions and wild stories about their favorite budget knife, outperforming (or performing on the same level) as CPM S90V, S110V, INFI, CPM 3V, M390, and so on... Blanket statements like my 20$ knife can do everything just as well as 400$ knife can. Revelations like "and then I've learned simple carbon steel can do better". At best, based on using one or two factory knives with stock edges, more often based on nothing. Then you get weekly threads about steel snobs and knife snobs. By the same crowd.
So, using your car analogy, 1950 Ford owner proudly claims that his car can do anything just as well as 2012 Lamborghini. Yeah, if you describe it vaguely enough it does sound like truth, it'll get you from point A to point B, faster than a horse or on foot. But obviously it's not the truth.

My comment there was a general one not specifically pointed at Busse. Rather I was merely expressing frustration with fanboys in general recommending knives to folks that don't meet (or poorly meet) the parameters laid out by the original poster. Sometimes Busse fans do it, sometimes Chris Reeve fans do it, sometimes Spyderco, Kershaw, Cold Steel or ESEE fans do it. Ya know?

 

[brandonc]

Infi ? Isn't anyone concerned about Randall's O1 vs BlackJack Knives' A2 in the same knife pattern ?

Is BlackJack the new Randall ?

:thumbup:

 

[dingy]

"Buy your own, there's Busse's always for sale.
"

i am just interested in his tender knife , and i wanna do(repeat) what he said .

dingy