Is Busse the new Randall?

[Gator97]

As long as you're not obsessing about getting tp-slicing edges softer steels aren't really going to take too long to touch up. My Opinel No.8 in carbon steel only takes a couple quick swipes with a fine Diafold to get back to a nice fine working edge.

Dunno what constitutes "nice working edge", but regardless, whatever edge you have, will degrade faster on softer steels, i.e. you have to restore it more often, i.e. remove more metal, etc. There is no other way around it. Simple carbon steels also have very low wear resistance, which also increases edge degradation rate when cutting abrasive materials.
Besides, what or who defines what is a "reasonably" sharp edge? Sharper knife cuts better, it's as simple as that. Once you give up sharpness or edge durability for one reason or another, the argument "budget knife can do everything just as well as high end knives" doesn't hold much water.

I think your ratios are a bit hyperbolic, with all due respect. And budget steel doesn't require a thicker edge so long as it's still cutlery grade and has a good heat treatment. ...
I keep a 30-degree inclusive on my 1075 and 1055 machetes and rarely have to sharpen them in spite of frequent use in a high-impact manner. My AUS-8 knives all have a similarly thin edge on them and have never dented or rolled on me. Same goes for the 4116 Krupp on my Pocket Bushman that I EDC.

Not really. Can't comment on chopping, but I have plenty of knives that will both, outcut and outlast any of the steels you mentioned not just 5x1, but even at a larger margin, and with thinner edges a well. AUS8, or 4116 or 1075 will not hold 10 inclusive edge and be able to cut with it any amount of time. 4116 I'm quite familiar with, tons of western kitchen knives are made out of if, Aogami 1, Aogami 2, ZDP-189, all outlast it with considerably thinner edges from 10 to 20 inclusive. As for slicing cardboard, rope, etc, comparing Vanadis 4E, CPM 110V or S125 to the alloys you listed isn't even fair. 5x is a very generous estimate(for budget alloys)
I figure, you and many others will say 10 inclusive is way too thin, but again, it seems too thin only because mainstream knives can't do it and we accept mainstream as average or good. It isn't problematic to use, cuts a lot better than 30 inclusive and very easy to restore/maintain.
Yes, they are more expensive and price / performance ration may not be as big as the price difference, but the fact is budget knives don't perform at that level. They have their place and price advantage, but to claim equal or comparable performance is unfair, misleading, etc. That's pretty much the only point I have.

I...don't understand what you're saying? Sorry--could you rephrase it?

I am saying that 400$+ knife can be expensive because of different reasons. Some as you mentioned try to squeeze every once of performance, and that comes at a high price, others are expensive because of the brand, art, whatever... Going with generic statements that X budget knife performs like any 400$ knife doesn't tell anything.

My comment there was a general one not specifically pointed at Busse.

Same here, I was not referring to any brand specifically.

Sometimes Busse fans do it, sometimes Chris Reeve fans do it, sometimes Spyderco, Kershaw, Cold Steel or ESEE fans do it. Ya know?

Yeah, I know. And sometimes budget steel fans do exactly the same. Doesn't have to be brand affiliated you know It's negative from either side.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Dunno what constitutes "nice working edge", but regardless, whatever edge you have, will degrade faster on softer steels, i.e. you have to restore it more often, i.e. remove more metal, etc. There is no other way around it. Simple carbon steels also have very low wear resistance, which also increases edge degradation rate when cutting abrasive materials.
Besides, what or who defines what is a "reasonably" sharp edge? Sharper knife cuts better, it's as simple as that. Once you give up sharpness or edge durability for one reason or another, the argument "budget knife can do everything just as well as high end knives" doesn't hold much water.

I never made the argument that a budget knife can do everything as well as high end knives can. I simply said that they're more than capable of handling about 95% (give or take--it's obviously subjective) the same tasks that high end knives can. Big difference. Of course there are tradeoffs--and as you mention we all measure value a little differently. But there's still definitely a "sweet spot" where your dollar tends to pack a little more punch.

As far as my contextual definition of a "nice working edge" I mean at or near dry-shaving level. It literally takes me about 8 seconds to restore the edge on my Opinel to that level.

Not really. Can't comment on chopping, but I have plenty of knives that will both, outcut and outlast any of the steels you mentioned not just 5x1, but even at a larger margin, and with thinner edges a well. AUS8, or 4116 or 1075 will not hold 10 inclusive edge and be able to cut with it any amount of time. 4116 I'm quite familiar with, tons of western kitchen knives are made out of if, Aogami 1, Aogami 2, ZDP-189, all outlast it with considerably thinner edges from 10 to 20 inclusive. As for slicing cardboard, rope, etc, comparing Vanadis 4E, CPM 110V or S125 to the alloys you listed isn't even fair. 5x is a very generous estimate(for budget alloys)
I figure, you and many others will say 10 inclusive is way too thin, but again, it seems too thin only because mainstream knives can't do it and we accept mainstream as average or good. It isn't problematic to use, cuts a lot better than 30 inclusive and very easy to restore/maintain.
Yes, they are more expensive and price / performance ration may not be as big as the price difference, but the fact is budget knives don't perform at that level. They have their place and price advantage, but to claim equal or comparable performance is unfair, misleading, etc. That's pretty much the only point I have.

When it comes to the cutting large volumes of abrasive materials that's definitely a different game. In those cases I agree that you would be much better suited using a higher grade steel--picking the right "class" of knife for the task is on of the steps to consider BEFORE making a selection based on price. A general outline of my thoughts on the order and priority of selection is roughly as follows:

1) What do you want to do with it? How, when, and where will it be used, and to what extent/how long? This points you towards desirable characteristics, and an appropriate subset of knives.
2) What is available on the market that meets the specifications determined in step 1?
3) Out of those models, which appeal to you most based on your personal stylistic preferences, methods and environment of carry, and specific uses (among other factors)?
4) Out of your favorites selected in step 3, which fit within your budget? If you find the one for you, great! If all of your favorites are out of your reach, proceed to step 5.
5) Out of the models found during step 2, which are within your budget?
6) Out of those models, which is your favorite?

I am saying that 400$+ knife can be expensive because of different reasons. Some as you mentioned try to squeeze every once of performance, and that comes at a high price, others are expensive because of the brand, art, whatever... Going with generic statements that X budget knife performs like any 400$ knife doesn't tell anything.

I agree. And that's a point that I never argued.

Same here, I was not referring to any brand specifically.

Gotcha'. Just wanted to clarify.

Yeah, I know. And sometimes budget steel fans do exactly the same. Doesn't have to be brand affiliated you know It's negative from either side.

Also agreed. Extremism of any kind is...er...extreme! Each individual's unique needs and circumstances have to be evaluated in order to arrive at a suitable match. To ignore that is to defeat the purpose of them asking for advice in the first place.

 

[Ankerson]

Folks who want the best, as usual try to get that best at the best value, don't they Besides, what is "best value" is rather subjective. If I have to spend 5x more time on sharpening the hypothetical "best value" knife to maintain it in a good shape, to me that's not exactly a good value even if it is 5 times cheaper, if I have to use 5x times more force to make the same cut, because budget steel dictates thicker edge, to me, not a good value.
My time is also valuable to me. I've used enough knives not to believe in statements about 20+ year old, intensively used knives that needed very few sharpenings.


True. Although, in knife world as in any other, performance is not the only thing increasing the value. Randalls for example, 01 steel, around 56-58HRC... Definitely not at that point when performance becomes too expensive.


It goes both ways. I don't think it's any different when 10xx carbon steel(or 420HC, 440C) fans "jump in" with suggestions and wild stories about their favorite budget knife, outperforming (or performing on the same level) as CPM S90V, S110V, INFI, CPM 3V, M390, and so on... Blanket statements like my 20$ knife can do everything just as well as 400$ knife can. Revelations like "and then I've learned simple carbon steel can do better". At best, based on using one or two factory knives with stock edges, more often based on nothing. Then you get weekly threads about steel snobs and knife snobs. By the same crowd.
So, using your car analogy, 1950 Ford owner proudly claims that his car can do anything just as well as 2012 Lamborghini. Yeah, if you describe it vaguely enough it does sound like truth, it'll get you from point A to point B, faster than a horse or on foot. But obviously it's not the truth.

I always get a real kick out of those stories about some low alloy steel knife doing those amazing things that just isn't even possible.

A 20+ year old knife that hasn't needed much sharpening hasn't been used all that much.

Those wild stories that are really fiction based on nothing but hearsay or just plain fantasy are always entertaining to read and good for a laugh.

People tend to slant the truth towards what they want people to think the facts are, but when we take out all those things and bring it back to reality all that we are left with is the truth.

Some people don't like the truth or facts because it doesn't fit into their personal agendas, what they really are and or what the real reasons could be are anyone's guess.

But then not everyone is like us in that we get to play with some knives in steels that aren't the norm so we get to see what high performance really is.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I always get a real kick out of those stories about some low alloy steel knife doing those amazing things that just isn't even possible.

A 20+ year old knife that hasn't needed much sharpening hasn't been used all that much.

Those wild stories that are really fiction based on nothing but hearsay or just plain fantasy are always entertaining to read and good for a laugh.

People tend to slant the truth towards what they want people to think the facts are, but when we take out all those things and bring it back to reality all that we are left with is the truth.

Some people don't like the truth or facts because it doesn't fit into their personal agendas, what they really are and or what the real reasons could be are anyone's guess.

But then not everyone is like us in that we get to play with some knives in steels that aren't the norm so we get see what high performance really is.

I find that often the folks making the claim of their knife never having needed sharpening have no clue how to recognize a dull edge. You wouldn't believe how many times I've had a fellow tell me proudly that he's never sharpened his knife, and when he hands it to me to look at it's about as dull as a restaurant steak knife. You'd be better off trying to cut with the spine in many cases!

 

[Ankerson]

I find that often the folks making the claim of their knife never having needed sharpening have no clue how to recognize a dull edge. You wouldn't believe how many times I've had a fellow tell me proudly that he's never sharpened his knife, and when he hands it to me to look at it's about as dull as a restaurant steak knife.

Oh I know exactly what you are talking about.

Also remember that the knives people tend to use the most are kitchen knives and they will continue to cut long after they are dull due to blade and edge geometry.

 

[kurodrago]

The conspiracy about the steel is gone, now the have the new one...thickness conspiracy which is even more stupid.
So far I know that you can order a knife 1/4" and ask them to make for you 1/16" of thickness if you want too.
I'm surprised that no one bring up yer the price conspiracy, hoo wait, Randalls are more expensive

Many posts in this thread say Busse knives are over-thick. And indeed some are. But…

All the knives I’ve had from all three companies, have been either 1/4" thick or 3/16” thick. It’s not as though you can’t get Busse knives of that thickness.

All the knives I’ve had from Randall have been either ¼” thick or 3/16” thick.

Busse makes thicker knives. Randall makes thicker knives.

I’m not seeing a lot of difference here.

 

[shunsui]

The Busse family will be happy to sell any infidels a good old fashioned budget carbon steel done with the ever so important "GOOD HEAT TREAT" we always hear about; and at a reasonable price with a decent warranty. Heck, made in the USA too. Did I mention thin and short ?
Get your's here: http://www.swamprat.com

Rodent 4
Blade Length: 4 5/8"
OAL: 9 1/2"
Steel: SR-101 (52100 carbon steel with the good heat treat)
Hardness: 58-60 RC
Thickness: 3/16"
Handles: Black Canvas Micarta
Blade Width: Approx 1 1/4"
Starting at: $108.95

 

[Gator97]

I never made the argument that a budget knife can do everything as well as high end knives can.

I never said you did, pardon if it sounded like that, there were enough claims like that even in this thread alone, and BF has plenty of those.

I simply said that they're more than capable of handling about 95% (give or take--it's obviously subjective) the same tasks that high end knives can. Big difference. Of course there are tradeoffs--and as you mention we all measure value a little differently. But there's still definitely a "sweet spot" where your dollar tends to pack a little more punch.

Well, the posts I was objecting to stop at the first part of your statement. How easily the task is done and how well the knife preserved its edge, etc it's all simply ignored, and then the jump to conclusion(if they really believe it) that 20$ knife works just as well as 400$ custom with top notch HT on high end steel.

When it comes to the cutting large volumes of abrasive materials that's definitely a different game. In those cases I agree that you would be much better suited using a higher grade steel--picking the right "class" of knife for the task is on of the steps to consider BEFORE making a selection based on price.

Cool, so we're on the same page. Same applies to kitchen use. I have pretty standard routine for kitchen knives, involves large amounts of vegetables and meat. Western knives from 1.4116(X50CrMoV15) 54-58HRC never performed even at 1x5 ratio to high end Japanese knives. I've tried both, double bevel 30/40 and single bevel 40 on soft steels, and 10-20 range on Japanese. Aside form edge longevity, working with 40 inclusive angle, is far more difficult compared to 20, let alone 10 inclusive edge. For 2 hours straight, it's physically tiring compared to thin edges. That type of stuff is never mentioned in those "my budget knife can do it all".

Interesting questionnaire , although in my experience #1 often has very vague answers, and lots of people as usual want one knife do it all experience, which doesn't really work that well.

 

[Gator97]

I always get a real kick out of those stories about some low alloy steel knife doing those amazing things that just isn't even possible.

Yeah, some of the things I read are simply astonishing... Feels like those knives came from the very distant future, but no, apparently form not so distant past

But then not everyone is like us in that we get to play with some knives in steels that aren't the norm so we get to see what high performance really is.

Well, there is problem in using and/or preferring budget knives. It's a matter of preference and a budget after all. The problem I have is when certain budget knife lovers trash everything else that doesn't fit in their preferred category, most of the time without ever using any of it, and promote false performance claims backed by empty air and fairy tales. I don't get it, why crap on other knifemakers hard work, grinding and heat treating those high end steels is few times more time consuming and expensive and very unforgiving at that. It is no different than a particular brand fanboys trashing everyone else.

The Busse family will be happy to sell any infidels a good old fashioned budget carbon steel done with the ever so important "GOOD HEAT TREAT" we always hear about; and at a reasonable price with a decent warranty. Heck, made in the USA too. Did I mention thin and short ?

Good point. May be for some carbon purists 52100 will still be not simple carbon enough, but who knows...

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I never said you did, pardon if it sounded like that, there were enough claims like that even in this thread alone, and BF has plenty of those.

:thumbup:

Well, the posts I was objecting to stop at the first part of your statement. How easily the task is done and how well the knife preserved its edge, etc it's all simply ignored, and then the jump to conclusion(if they really believe it) that 20$ knife works just as well as 400$ custom with top notch HT on high end steel.

The only thing I was trying to say was that most inexpensive cutlery steels was that in my experience they don't ding, chip, or roll horribly as long as they have a good heat treatment. NOT that they'll perform as well in all respects as higher end steels. I had also misconstrued your intended meaning of them "needing thicker edges" as your definition of a thin edge as being 10-15 degrees inclusive was much thinner than what most folk commonly "thin" and rather more like "hyper-thin." I agree that for edge stability in that range it requires both a knife in ultra-high performance steel and consideration given to the edge in terms of technique applied to its use. Again, it seems like we're really on the same page here.

Cool, so we're on the same page. Same applies to kitchen use. I have pretty standard routine for kitchen knives, involves large amounts of vegetables and meat. Western knives from 1.4116(X50CrMoV15) 54-58HRC never performed even at 1x5 ratio to high end Japanese knives. I've tried both, double bevel 30/40 and single bevel 40 on soft steels, and 10-20 range on Japanese. Aside form edge longevity, working with 40 inclusive angle, is far more difficult compared to 20, let alone 10 inclusive edge. For 2 hours straight, it's physically tiring compared to thin edges. That type of stuff is never mentioned in those "my budget knife can do it all".

In kitchen knives I like my knives as thin as possible, both in grind and in edge. Again, I agree!

Interesting questionnaire , although in my experience #1 often has very vague answers, and lots of people as usual want one knife do it all experience, which doesn't really work that well.

Ah--but some designs are geared towards more general work anyway. Most, in fact. At that point you kind of have to focus more on their preferences, general category of carry environment (rural, urban, woods, office, etc) and also try to ask them about the specific situations they've been in (or that they plan on being in) that prompted them to search out the knife. And sometimes the goal is just "I want something brutal and fun."

 

[Ankerson]

Well, there is problem in using and/or preferring budget knives. It's a matter of preference and a budget after all. The problem I have is when certain budget knife lovers trash everything else that doesn't fit in their preferred category, most of the time without ever using any of it, and promote false performance claims backed by empty air and fairy tales. I don't get it, why crap on other knifemakers hard work, grinding and heat treating those high end steels is few times more time consuming and expensive and very unforgiving at that. It is no different than a particular brand fanboys trashing everyone else.

I think most of it comes from just plain jealousy and the other part comes from urban legends, heresy, and fairy tails.

The real truth has nothing to do with the above.

The saddest part of it is that they are telling themselves those stories...

 

[Ken44]

" Is Busse the new Randall?"

Can't believe a thread with this title lasted two page's, and am really surprised it has turned into this.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Haha! I hear you there.

 

[Micro-Bevel]

In order to decide which is 'better', the word better needs to have a more concrete definition. Busse outperforms Randall's 440B any time, any where. In NO performance-only category is Randall superior to Busse. Reference the 'Proof of Bussekin Superiority' thread, which is a sticky, at the top of the Busse forum.

If performance alone does not constitute 'better', then what does?

Certainly Randall's have a rich history (although Busse is by no means a newcomer), and because of their history have achieved nearly cult status. Also, Randall's are much more 'prestigious' than Busse's, although, again, Busse is not something you see everyday (unless you're on BladeForums). Randall's are also much more 'hand made'- for whatever this counts. Busse is, on the whole, generally MUCH less difficult to obtain than Randall's (in both price and availability).

In the end the overriding factor apropos of which is better simply lies in the definition of that word for the individual user.

For me, that is based almost purely on performance.

Opinions without objective evidence are useless.

Objective evidence:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/772715-Proof-Of-Busse-(and-Kin)-Superiority

 

[Ankerson]

In order to decide which is 'better', the word better needs to have a more concrete definition. Busse outperforms Randall's 440B any time, any where. In NO performance-only category is Randall superior to Busse. Reference the 'Proof of Bussekin Superiority' thread, which is a sticky, at the top of the Busse forum.

If performance alone does not constitute 'better', then what does?

Certainly Randall's have a rich history (although Busse is by no means a newcomer), and because of their history have achieved nearly cult status. Also, Randall's are much more 'prestigious' than Busse's, although, again, Busse is not something you see everyday (unless you're on BladeForums). Randall's are also much more 'hand made'- for whatever this counts. Busse is, on the whole, generally MUCH less difficult to obtain than Randall's (in both price and availability).

In the end the overriding factor apropos of which is better simply lies in the definition of that word for the individual user.

For me, that is based almost purely on performance.

Opinions without objective evidence are useless.

Objective evidence:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/772715-Proof-Of-Busse-(and-Kin)-Superiority

Randall's are O1, not 440B.

 

[Samael]

The stainless ones are a high-carbon 440B.

 

[Ankerson]

The stainless ones are a high-carbon 440B.

Never looked at the Stainless ones.

440B is an interesting choice though taking into count how much those knives cost.

 

[Samael]

They've had better results with forging it than 440C.

 

[Ankerson]

They've had better results with forging it than 440C.

440B is likely slightly tougher too.

 

[Micro-Bevel]

Never looked at the Stainless ones.

440B is an interesting choice though taking into count how much those knives cost.

I used the 440B as an example. Both 01 and the entire 440 family don't have the inherent strength and edge retention of INFI. Of course, I am always happy to be proven wrong.