Is Dull, Drab, Ugly and Agressive the New Measure of Beauty?

[Neo]

On youtube there are a lot of reviews of tactical knives.
But there's a guy (Dagon) who makes reviews of gentlemans knives.
On the different forums I saw that some who watched those reviews are now more interested in buying a nice gentleman folder.
I guess the tactical war stuff has to do with the marketing we see every day.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Nope, but I can snap a pic for you if you'd like. Which Ohta? The stag, or the ironwood?

Thanks.

The stag if you could. :thumbup:

 

[DennisStrickland]

really love you guys ,regardless of opinions i believe we can all agree on 2 things. photos were incredible & the energy outflow shows forum is very healthy.

 

[philwar]

If you look at the popular knives of yore, the steel was more-often-than-not brightly finished, and they were handled in beautiful natural materials, polished metals and attractively colored celluloids, etc.

How boring. How oldfashioned. How unimaginative. How PC.
How you like them there qualifications?

So why the current trend toward dull, drab, belligerent-looking "tactical" cutlery with overblown military motifs and juvenile marketing slogans (""Death is our Only Competition," etc.) that look like something broken off of an old rototiller?

Love that slogan. Who uses it?
Could all the adjectives used here be just a matter of taste?

What is it about modern consumer culture that exalts the current crop of "combat" knives above the comparatively benign looking, colorful and moderately sized offerings that served our ancestors so well during the last century?

Part of of it is fashion, trend. But part of it is increased emphasis on performance. If we follow your line of thinking, why didn't we stop developing new cars and new technologies after WW2?
Todays knives are better than those of 20 years ago. Period. As for appearances, well, there's just no arguing taste.

It can't be solely based on performance. A high-performance knife is still high-performance whether it's dressed in a party gown or a camo mall-ninja outfit. Likewise, the latest synthetic materials can be made in any color, but the most popular continue to be various shades of dull.

This I agree with. But dull seems to be the most sought-after color (most of my knives are dull-colored too).
Spyderco recently came up with a line of Barbie-colored knives. Let's see how well they sell.

In the past, a kid would be far more inclined to buy a small pocketknife with colorful scales, even though large synthetic black-handled jacks and Barlows were often a cheaper option.

Not me. I was always mall ninja-inclined. So are my own kids.

So, what changed? Have we become so confused, fearful and insecure as a culture that we seek out the illusion of empowerment by purchasing utilitarian pocket tools that look like implements of war?

You really are too judgemental. There's no need for such outlandish qualifications. Most people like their knives to resemble or infer a military/tactical side. This might well change again, but at the moment it doesn't seem like that trend has peaked yet.

After well over a decade of this bizarre fashion trend, one begins to wonder who the real "sheeple" are when it comes to knives.

Really? I have no doubts who they are. I've never heard anyone else on this forum express doubts either.

 

[philwar]

In an attempt to keep this thread on topic, I'll pose an example: What is it about today's knife consumer that draws them to this (with its appropriately pugnacious "Nightmare" moniker):

Rather than this?

Putting aside cost and minor functional differences for the moment (please), they're both one-hand opening, screw-assembled, medium/large folders with (I assume) excellent steel, ergos, edge geometry and modern materials, but the American offering (and its maker!) goes out of its way to appear as menacing, inelegant and intimidating as possible, while the Swedish knife is comparatively elegant, timeless and benign-looking.

What is it that draws today's consumers in such abundant numbers to the aesthetic of the first knife?

Again, please don't tell us which one is "better." I'm only using these two examples to illustrate a puzzling aesthetic trend.

That Strider is horrible (IMHO).
That Fallkniven is gorgeous (IMHO).

I like the droppoint SMF though.

 

[neeman]

Rick,

First of all the black matt killer knife is an iconic symbol in America.

It is the Kabar Marine knife, the knife that real men wore and used to kill in hand to hand combat.
I do not deny this possible use, but Hollywood and myth about it, made it like the Cowboy an extention of the Wild West culture.

There is a shift away from the need of a working knife as the culture becomes more urban.
The need of self defense in the urban society is a reality.
And the knife changes from being a working tool acceptable in anyones pocket, to a weapon that might be needed a 'stressful' situations.
And society has become much more violent.

Then as the skill of the average knife user lessens, the need for a 'safer' locking blades increase.

The cool factor goes a long way. How many of our kids want new cell phones as the marketing goes out implying the old one is 'out'.
We call the knives tacticool, and there is the market for $35 knives that kids will buy.

There is no point showing expensive knives to compare athetics.
What can you get for $35, a 'quaint' Case Stockman or a Tacticool?
So what is the question about kids buying what??

 

[Rick]

A sincere thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. This thread is turning out to be quite informative. I apologize if my original, admittedly overstated, post sprayed urine in anyone's breakfast cereal.

The stag if you could. :thumbup:

Here ya go, John.

 

[Bushman5]

In an attempt to keep this thread on topic, I'll pose an example: What is it about today's knife consumer that draws them to this (with its appropriately pugnacious "Nightmare" moniker):

Rather than this?

Putting aside cost and minor functional differences for the moment (please), they're both one-hand opening, screw-assembled, medium/large folders with (I assume) excellent steel, ergos, edge geometry and modern materials, but the American offering (and its maker!) goes out of its way to appear as menacing, inelegant and intimidating as possible, while the Swedish knife is comparatively elegant, timeless and benign-looking.

What is it that draws today's consumers in such abundant numbers to the aesthetic of the first knife?

Again, please don't tell us which one is "better." I'm only using these two examples to illustrate a puzzling aesthetic trend.

ok i'll bite.

i look at the top knife and i see a well built heavy duty knife that can be used in the woods under all sorts of conditions (wet, muddy, dusty dirty etc etc) and that can be used for heavy duty cutting, slicing, splitting, breaking type tasks, and that can be put away wet and muddy without any effects on it. A hard core user knife.

i look at the second knife and i see a gentleman's folder something for light usage. I do NOT see that knife being used like the first one, I would not want to get it dirty or use it like I use my woods knives. Its just too nice to use like i use my woods knives

having said that i would buy both. The first one as a go to heavy duty user knife for the EDC and the woods, the second one as a office carry or for when i'm dressed up.

 

[Rick]

ok i'll bite.

i look at the top knife and i see a well built heavy duty knife that can be used in the woods under all sorts of conditions (wet, muddy, dusty dirty etc etc) and that can be used for heavy duty cutting, slicing, splitting, breaking type tasks, and that can be put away wet and muddy without any effects on it. A hard core user knife.

i look at the second knife and i see a gentleman's folder something for light usage. I do NOT see that knife being used like the first one, I would not want to get it dirty or use it like I use my woods knives.

YMMV

I can see where you're getting that impression, but I wonder how much of it is based on image or superficial appearance. It's not like one knife is made from Adamantium and the other is made of spun sugar and moonbeams.

I have no direct experience with either knife, but my understanding is that both use more or less state-of-the-art materials and should be equally useful, assuming that the Strider's cartoonish blade profile is actually good for anything but opening cans and scaring old ladies.

The point has been made several times in this thread that a cheap sprayed-on finish isn't really superior to an expensive, labor-intensive one unless you're an accountant for a company that offers the former for the price of the latter.

In other words, I think the idea that murderous-looking grinds and cheap finishes equal better performance is nothing but marketing hyperbole. The fact that a knife is well finished and reasonably attractive doesn't necessarily preclude high performance.

 

[Bushman5]

I can see where you're getting that impression, but I wonder how much of it is based on image or superficial appearance. It's not like one knife is made from Adamantium and the other is made of spun sugar and moonbeams.

I have no direct experience with either knife, but my understanding is that both use more or less state-of-the-art materials and should be equally useful, assuming that the Strider's cartoonish blade profile is actually good for anything but opening cans and scaring old ladies.

The point has been made several times in this thread that a cheap sprayed-on finish isn't really superior to an expensive, labor-intensive one unless you're an accountant for a company that offers the former for the price of the latter.

In other words, I think the idea that murderous-looking grinds and cheap finishes equal better performance is nothing but marketing hyperbole. The fact that a knife is well finished and reasonably attractive doesn't necessarily preclude high performance.

no it doesn't, but i just wouldn't use a finely crafted and finished knife like that for woods use. Its something i would use sitting by the fire while sipping scotch and smoking a cigar or my briars.

as for the Striders blade shape, you see cartoonish and old lady scaring, I see a cord cutting notch plus MULTI blade surfaces, where one could sharpen one at a very fine angle for delicate cutting tasks, and the other convexed for heavy duty cutting tasks.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Here ya go, John.

Those are off the hook ! The Zscherny is extremly nice. Not sure if you have used them much , but man those just oooze class. :thumbup:

 

[Rick]

no it doesn't, but i just would'nt a finely crafted and finished knife like that for woods use. Its something i would use sitting by the fire while sipping scotch and smoking a cigar or my briars.

Fair enough. Even though I live in LA, I spend a lot of time in the outdoors---high desert, upper Yosemite and Angeles Crest Forest, etc.---and when I need a hard-use woods knife, I use an old tough-as-nails 1095 fixed blade, so I can certainly understand preferring a cheaply-finished knife over a "finely crafted and finished" one for use as a beater. The problem is that many of today's cheaply-finished, indifferently-crafted "hardcore" folders actually cost more due to their trophy marketing hype. That tends to muddy the waters a bit.

 

[Bushman5]

^ I added some stuff to my post

as for "marketing" i tune it right out. I buy knives based on need and how i will use them, how tough they are, materials, blade shape/grind etc. "marketing" lingo and ads i pretty much tune out..... I base my purchasing on friends reviews, my own testing etc. Sometimes i just like the way a knife looks too.

 

[Krull]

I dunno,I guess because some of us actually use our knives?

While I agree with the others on the more outrageous blade shapes I think if you look at most "olde-timey" knives they suck for using (and before you screech at me I know 'cos I've used those old things)

However there are old time "tactical" knives and I carry one everyday:a Douk-Douk.......

Not shiny,not pretty but made to use,keep you hand off the blade and just work.

Barlow's,gent's,rancher and a lot of the other "traditional" knives strike me as damn poor for use,if you just open up you tea cookies fine,but if you put one to use in a hurry and in wet nasty conditions etc. you'll do a good job...slicing yourself.

The Douk at least does a decent job at keeping your hand were it belongs.

The new ones do the same-keep you fingers were it belongs,and off the blade!

As to finish....

Dull,drab,and flat things keep better then bright and shiny stuff;G10,Micarta and the like does better in the long run then celluloid,horn,and stag.
Wood is ok,but it can get beat on pretty good if you really go at it like I do.

So in the end it comes to this:what you gonna do with it? open mail? open those tea cookies? maybe slice a cucumber sandwich? and no real hard cutting! this one has a round,slick handle you don't want a cutsy right?ok,fine a real old time,purty,abalone and silver knife is just for you! don't forget the fine leather pocket pouch,don't want a scratch now!

Or are you gonna clip it to your pocket,cut all kinds of stuff,lay it on the ground (and maybe in the mud) gut animals and just generally bang it about?
Yea a G10 in hot pink and VG10 high polish blade could do this but I bet dollars to donuts it's gonna look a bit wild after a few months.
Flat black and ether a flat,dull finish blade will serve better,maybe a blade coating? in grey or black? yea that'll help too.

The sort of what I just said-one's a tool and the other is some form of jewelry for men,nothing wrong with that,if you take pride in nice things but please don't drag it out to the world and expect it to do hard work~and if you do DON'T BITCH AT ME WHEN YOU SLICE OFF A FINGER!

Cos I'll just tell you to go buy an uber tactical mall ninja knife

 

[Rick]

Thanks, John. I've actually used the Menefee for some fairly demanding tasks, and both the edge and finish have held up surprisingly well. I even dropped it on a hardwood floor, and damned if I can find any scars. OTOH, the Ohta and Zscherny have been babied, as both are relative new comers around here.

 

[Rick]

Krull, I have to completely disagree that traditional slippies are unsuitable for serious hard-use.

Tell ya what; hop on over to the "traditional' board in this forum and post the above opinion. They're a remarkably friendly (and heavily moderated ) group that will take your comments in stride and share their real-world experiences with you. I've used some of my slipjoints hard, and never had a single safety or performance issue. They require a bit more skill and experience, but once you're used to them, it becomes obvious that locking folders are nice, but unnecessary for most realistic tasks that require a knife rather than a prybar or an axe.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

The swayback is a pattern I have yet to be able to warm up to for some reason , it just feels a bit odd to me , though I know I am going to have to get one just for the hell of it anyways and see how if that feel changes after some time spent using one.

Barlow's,gent's,rancher and a lot of the other "traditional" knives strike me as damn poor for use

You would be very wrong in that assumption. I would be willing to bet more of those type of knives were used "hard" in more real world environments than one could imagine. Farmers , ranchers , construction workers , mechanics , etc....

I came into the possession of my great grandfathers barlow style knife , and I can tell it has been used hard , and its still going. And he had all 10 fingers when he passed , as did my grandfather , and my father used the same knife is his auto repair shop for as long as I can remember. It was always in the top center drawer of his main large box..always.

Each style has its use. It's plus's and minuses , but a slipjoint is just fine for the majority of the stuff a knife is supposed to be used for . Don't let the lack of lock fool you. A lock on ANY folding knife is the secondary safety , the first one is between the ears.

Never expect a knife to do what a knife was not designed to do.
A folder doesn't have to have a lock to be effective.

 

[CaptInsano]

It's not like one knife is made from Adamantium and the other is made of spun sugar and moonbeams.

It might as well be.

I have no direct experience with either knife, but my understanding is that both use more or less state-of-the-art materials and should be equally useful, assuming that the Strider's cartoonish blade profile is actually good for anything but opening cans and scaring old ladies.

You honestly cannot even imagine how such a blade might be used to an advantage? Do you recognize that as some indication of being oblivious or close minded?

 

[CaptInsano]

Krull, I have to completely disagree that traditional slippies are unsuitable for serious hard-use.

Tell ya what; hop on over to the "traditional' board in this forum and post the above opinion. They're a remarkably friendly (and heavily moderated ) group that will take your comments in stride and share their real-world experiences with you. I've used some of my slipjoints hard, and never had a single safety or performance issue. They require a bit more skill and experience, but once you're used to them, it becomes obvious that locking folders are nice, but unnecessary for most realistic tasks that require a knife rather than a prybar or an axe.

What should be obvious to you is that almost any safety feature is completely unnecessary right up to the point when it actually becomes necessary.

 

[Rick]

You honestly cannot even imagine how such a blade might be used to an advantage? Do you recognize that as some indication of being oblivious or close minded?

Sure, I can imagine how just about anything with a point or a sharp edge might be used in a pinch, but that exaggerated cartoon grind appears far to... specialized to be a realisticlly versatile cutting tool. Imagine skinning a deer or filleting a fish with that thing. What a mess!

What should be obvious to you is that almost any safety feature is completely unnecessary right up to the point when it actually becomes necessary.

Over reliance on safety features often leads to complacency and sloppy habits, and when those features eventually fail, disaster. This board is full of stories of serious injuries received from high-tech locking folders. Happens all the time. On the other hand, I seldom hear about slipjoint inflicted injuries because they encourage the user to practice safe handling skills and stay focused at all times.