Is Dull, Drab, Ugly and Agressive the New Measure of Beauty?

[Leftoverdj]

[QUOTE
But if I did have to use a knife to defend my life from someone carrying a gun then I doubt that I would be found guilty of anything. [/QUOTE]

Dead don't get convicted. They are just dead.

I note you are from New Zealand. I'm from the States, and you cannot appreciate just how common pistols are here. A knife may well be a viable means of self defense in New Zealand, but it's a fair way of getting shot here, and the shooter will have a fair chance of getting away with it. There is a strong prejudice against knives and cutting people, while even little old ladies often carry pistols.

I was on a murder jury once. The majority of the jury carried pistols at least occasionally, and none of us saw anything wrong with the defendant slipping a pistol into his pocket before going into a suspected domestic abuse situation. Took us half an hour to acquit, and that was only because the smokers wanted a second cigarette.

 

[Rick]

So is the Glock 19 more likely to have you look like a bad guy than Nickle plated S&W model 29 with pearl grips ?

Heh heh - good question!

 

[CaptInsano]

C'mon . Does the right tool for the right job ring any bells? The Strider claims to be a serious knife for "hardcore" tasks.

Hardcore like filleting a fish?

The Harkins "Shard" is a collectible automatic - it isn't intended to be used any more than an art deco dagger by Wolfgang Loerchner. It's an art knife. Isn't that obvious?

Then why the hell did you post it?

 

[Rick]

Hardcore like filleting a fish?

Hey, you tell me. My guess is "hardcore" like making its owner feel empowered.

Then why the hell did you post it?

Because I was accused of a bias toward nothing but traditional knives, and the Harkins (which I no longer own), like the other knives I posted alongside it, can hardly be considered traditional.

 

[KnifeTurtle]

The idea of a knife as a self defense weapon is riduculas, no matter how fast deployment is, how tactical the blade shape is, and no matter what color the blade is. This is for one simple reason, a knife is only a viable weapon against someone extremely close to you, making it only useful against someone who is unarmed, or armed with a knife themselves. If someone were unarmed, it would be unreasonable to use a knife on them in all but the most dire of situations. If they had a knife and were set on killing/hurting you, you having a knife of your own may even the situation a little, however, there are very very very few criminaly roaming the streets with a knife looking to simple kill someone, and if you were to encounter one, they would likely have struck you before you realized you were under attack. Most criminals want 2 things, your money/posessions, and to avoid the law. A simple mugging garners far less scrutiny than a murder, so the vast majority of criminals will simply threaten you into giving them your money. In this situation, it is in your favor to do as they ask, no matter how tough you think you are or whatever weapon you have ecause a loss of money is etter than a potential loss of your life. If you are worried aout the very slight chance of an unarmed attacker, pepper spray would be the best option.

Now, do not take this as me being anti-knife. I feel that people should be able to carry whatever type of knife they like, however, it is ill advisable to carry a knife for the sole purpose of self defense. At the very least, it woild be useless, and at the worst it would get you killed. the chances of you gettng injured in a fight with an assailent are far higher than the chances of gatting injured by a crimianl on the streets with the sole purpose of harming you.

I think that in many cases people have forgotten what knives are supposed to be: tools. I am not pointing any fingers at anyone here, and I think in general the members of this forum are aware of the use of knives as tools far more than the general public. In fact, I have encountered many idiots in my life that carry knives solely as weapons. For example, a few years ago, when I was in High School, my friends would all carry 4 inch black assisted openers in order to "defend themselves" and would laugh at me for carrying a case sodbuster. This weapon oriented mentality is at the very best misguided, and at the worst dangerous. Do you trust a group of teenagers, or even many adults, to know when it is acceptable to use lethal force?

I find it funny that many people here complain about knife laws becoming too strict (Again, I am opposed to such laws) while simultaniously carrying waved emersons. Many people just do not get it. If you own a knife to be a weapon, how can you be surprised when the government classisies it as such? Not singiling anyone out, but people like this are on these forums, and in greater numbers, in the real world.

That's my rant. Agree or not, please think about it. In short, Knives not good weapons, should not be owned to be weapons. Of course I get if you just like the looks of the knife, or the feel, however that only goes so far.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Here is another observation , go to a large construction site , boss rolls up in an Escalade , spit shined , workers roll in driving F350's , old K5 Blazers , El Camino's .

Which is better ?

Better for impressing investors or showing investors around ? Escalade
Better for going to the lumberyard where you are going to pile in wood and materials....the avg pickup - the workhorse ( though make mine an El Camino with a 502 please ).

To each of us , the workhorse can be something different.
Case Sodbuster , Barlow , BM Griptillian , Sebenza , Strider....etc

To each of us the Escalade can be something different...
Begg , Mayo , Elishewitz , Erickson , Zscherny , etc

If the knife suits you , then that is what matters. Just don't chose something to impress others , as others might not be as easily impressed.

I think that in many cases people have forgotten what knives are supposed to be: tools.

he shoots - he scores !! Well said. No knife I carry is for the purpose of it being a self defense tool ( that is what the 1911 is for - and that just gets me to the long gun).

 

[CaptInsano]

The idea of a knife as a self defense weapon is riduculas, no matter how fast deployment is, how tactical the blade shape is, and no matter what color the blade is. This is for one simple reason, a knife is only a viable weapon against someone extremely close to you, making it only useful against someone who is unarmed, or armed with a knife themselves. If someone were unarmed, it would be unreasonable to use a knife on them in all but the most dire of situations. If they had a knife and were set on killing/hurting you, you having a knife of your own may even the situation a little, however, there are very very very few criminaly roaming the streets with a knife looking to simple kill someone, and if you were to encounter one, they would likely have struck you before you realized you were under attack. Most criminals want 2 things, your money/posessions, and to avoid the law. A simple mugging garners far less scrutiny than a murder, so the vast majority of criminals will simply threaten you into giving them your money. In this situation, it is in your favor to do as they ask, no matter how tough you think you are or whatever weapon you have ecause a loss of money is etter than a potential loss of your life. If you are worried aout the very slight chance of an unarmed attacker, pepper spray would be the best option.

Now, do not take this as me being anti-knife. I feel that people should be able to carry whatever type of knife they like, however, it is ill advisable to carry a knife for the sole purpose of self defense. At the very least, it woild be useless, and at the worst it would get you killed. the chances of you gettng injured in a fight with an assailent are far higher than the chances of gatting injured by a crimianl on the streets with the sole purpose of harming you.

I think that in many cases people have forgotten what knives are supposed to be: tools. I am not pointing any fingers at anyone here, and I think in general the members of this forum are aware of the use of knives as tools far more than the general public. In fact, I have encountered many idiots in my life that carry knives solely as weapons. For example, a few years ago, when I was in High School, my friends would all carry 4 inch black assisted openers in order to "defend themselves" and would laugh at me for carrying a case sodbuster. This weapon oriented mentality is at the very best misguided, and at the worst dangerous. Do you trust a group of teenagers, or even many adults, to know when it is acceptable to use lethal force?

I find it funny that many people here complain about knife laws becoming too strict (Again, I am opposed to such laws) while simultaniously carrying waved emersons. Many people just do not get it. If you own a knife to be a weapon, how can you be surprised when the government classisies it as such? Not singiling anyone out, but people like this are on these forums, and in greater numbers, in the real world.

That's my rant. Agree or not, please think about it. In short, Knives not good weapons, should not be owned to be weapons. Of course I get if you just like the looks of the knife, or the feel, however that only goes so far.

Whoa. So misguided I don't even know how to begin addressing it.

 

[CaptInsano]

Hey, you tell me. My guess is "hardcore" like making its owner feel empowered.

You seem a little lost, so I will tell you. You whined about the overspecialization of knives while whining about using a pocket knife to fillet fish. Then you whined about using the right tool for the job after specifically using a knife designed for "hardcore tasks" to fillet a fish. All this after claiming to be unable to think of an advantageous use for an unfamiliar blade shape, then claiming you could, and now again unable to even think of a way to use the blade. Your argument is logically inconsistent and very poorly thought out at best.

Because I was accused of a bias toward nothing but traditional knives, and the Harkins (which I no longer own), like the other knives I posted alongside it, can hardly be considered traditional.

Then I guess no one can accuse you of being biased towards knives that are actually functional, which also does nothing to help your position.

 

[Rick]

You seem a little lost, so I will tell you. You whined about the overspecialization of knives while whining about using a pocket knife to fillet fish. Then you whined about using the right tool for the job after specifically using a knife designed for "hardcore tasks" to fillet a fish. All this after claiming to be unable to think of an advantageous use for an unfamiliar blade shape, then claiming you could, and now again unable to even think of a way to use the blade. Your argument is logically inconsistent and very poorly thought out at best.

Then I guess no one can accuse you of being biased towards knives that are actually functional, which also does nothing to help your position.

Why the personal attack? Your assumptions concerning me are faulty and irrelevant to the topic. I "whined" about nothing, and my opinions, like yours, are just that; opinions.

 

[CaptInsano]

Why the personal attack? Your assumptions concerning me are faulty and irreverent to the topic. I "whined" about nothing, and my opinions, like yours, are just that; opinions.

I haven't assumed anything. Everything I have pointed out has come directly from your own statements. Ignoring the fact that identifying your complaints as whining is not a personal attack, you have no business talking about personal attacks after your derogatory characterizations of persons who carry knives you do not like. Once again, your argument is blatantly inconsistent.

 

[puukkoman]

I've never seen "large synthetic black-handled jacks and Barlows." What the heck are you blathering about? Silly person.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I think as a knife owner, I have gone though this once or twice.

Occasionally I see a really ugly knife and like the "tough look". It happens less and less frequently though.

I do get really annoyed by tactical, over the top stuff any more.

Occasionally I will see some design that really I have to admit I like. A little while ago, there was some guy posting knives that looked like a case of tetanus waiting to happen. They looked rusty, but it was just a finish.

 

[Rick]

I've never seen "large synthetic black-handled jacks and Barlows." What the heck are you blathering about? Silly person.

You've never heard of "slick black" (when smooth) or "rough black" (when jigged) handled slipjoints? They were very common man-made composition economy scales offered from the '40s on until the '70s. Here's a Case jack in slick black:

 

[Rick]

I haven't assumed anything. Everything I have pointed out has come directly from your own statements.

No - it came from your misinterpretation of those statements. You appear to be engaged in arguing for the sake of argument, presumably because someone had the temerity to disagree with one of your opinions.

Ignoring the fact that identifying your complaints as whining is not a personal attack, you have no business talking about personal attacks after your derogatory characterizations of persons who carry knives you do not like. Once again, your argument is blatantly inconsistent.

I apologized for that characterization several pages back. Get over it:

I apologize if my original, admittedly overstated, post sprayed urine in anyone's breakfast cereal.

 

[SteelSnob]

all I can say is I sure as hell hope some of you never end up on a jury to decide me or anyone else fates....


So is the Glock 19 more likely to have you look like a bad guy than Nickle plated S&W model 29 with pearl grips ?

Did you not read it when I said NKP? NKP= Non Knife Person

If anything it would be in your favor to have me on a jury if you used a knife in self defense.

Knives and guns are two way different animals. Guns are carried for one reason so you will probably not benefit one way or the other if you have a black gun or a chrome gun.

 

[SteelSnob]

And BTW I have to agree that pepper spray would be far better than a knife for SD because atleast you can use it at a little bit of a distance from the person you're defending against. I don't reccomend carrying a knife solely for SD purposes. There are very few situations I can think of that it would be called for or even helpful in.

 

[Fallbrook Forge]

to the OP, your statement about buying a Strider(I'm assuming you meant strider from your quote of thier slogan) to make myself feel empowered... is just ignorant.

I didn't buy a Strider because they look cool, or I saw them in the newest tactical magazine or because they look or make me feel manly.
I bought it because it's a tool, it's a tool that will survive pretty much anything I can put it through. And it's a tool the maker will fix or replace no matter what I do to it

Culturally speaking, military equipment has always been popular for the same reasons the mil. uses them. Durablity, durablity, and durability.

I would not use an Ed Fowler to chisel through a rock and mortar wall in an Iraqi hut, I would and have used a Strider to do just that very thing.
Enjoy what you enjoy, use what you want to use, please keep your judgements to yourself

 

[SteelSnob]

Strider told me they no longer warranty your knife if you abuse it. Although it wouldn't suprise me if they were just lying to me.

 

[Volk]

Wheew, read through the full thread...
Before I say anything else out of 4 knives I have worth mentioning, 2 have COMBAT in their name, 1 has Military, the last is leatherman.

Fist let me answer the original question.

Why the tactical appeal: Military stuff, has always been relatively dependable, and mass produced therefore, more bang for the buck. Therefore people turned to military knives. Then soldiers started buying their own gear, so they looked for "screw the price, it has got to work even if the world has officially ended 5 minutes ago" qualities. And if there is demand there would be supply. People though, still were looking to the military for the best bang for the buck, but now they were able to see all kinds of knives that can perform extremely well compared to the old stuff. But not a lot of people out there can afford to buy $300+ knives, and that's where the tacticool came into play. Companies were able to offer cheaper alternatives with some of the qualities of military blades. It sold, and everyone and their dog got on the tactical train.

A perfect example would be that kalashnikov monstrosity (I honestly can't find a word that would adequately describe that...thing). They took a theme of rugged construction and pure performance and capitalized on that. That's how market works, if something sells, get in on it. And advertisers will add oil to fire.

Now, about those folders, I learned about the fallkniven folder few days ago and went on see if i could buy it, how much it would cost and so on. But when I really thought about it, my Spyderco Military would suit me better, because its lighter and slimmer, therefore easier to carry around. And that's what I want in my EDC ability to carry it without noticing it. Also the unorthodox shape of the Spydercos makes look less tactical to sheeple (Granted the size of it makes mili look "evil").
Now to that strider folder, that would be an ideal blade for an undercover intelligence operative, or somebody who does need to use lethal force, but is limited as to what he can carry. That reinforced tip is better for striking and the the thinner edge allows for better cutting. Are there people that need to kill others for living unfortunately yes (do not read as "are there hitmen" or "spy vs spy," as first rarely rely on knives and the second was a real rarity even during the height of cold war). Will they buy that knife maybe, but most likely it will be bought by some hopeless romantic who thinks "what if," even if for him "what if" will never come. I also find that strider ugly, but I don't find other strider folders bad, and they have some excellent fixed blades that will work/perform when you need them too.

Can a knife be used in self defense, sure, not the best means of self defense but can be effective in the right hands. Its most effective if you are against someone armed with a knife, and you know how to use a knife (its horrible if you are dealing with someone who also knows how to use a knife). For all other situations a knife is better of hidden till the very last moment. (Then again everyone has their style, whose to say that what works for me will work for you.)

I do have a soft spot for gentleman's blades, I actually bought a carbon fiber military because somebody said it looks more like a gentleman's folder tacked away in your jeans.

Now to the two knives have COMBAT in their names, they are BUSSE COMBAT. In 2007 I came in here looking for more info about *gasp* Striders. I ended up buying two Busse fix blades. And I'm a huge fan (although I only have two.) My favorite was the satin finished blade of Busse Game Warden. The handle is Black/tan G-10(I think its more of White/black) it doesn't have tactical anywhere next to it (although it would work better then a lot of other knives for self defense). It's like what was "in" long time ago. I find that knife to be beautiful. I also have a ASH-1 CG with black micarta, and CG stands for combat grade. All that means is CG is coated. Now as Rick said that finish is supposedly cheaper then double cut or satin and guess what, it is. I would much rather have a double cut or satin version with black/tan g-10 magnum grips or LE version. But I don't, since I barely can afford this one.

So here you ask why I bought a $400 safe queen. The simple answer is, I didn't. I bought a knife that will last me a life time, that will work, and that will be used. For those that don't believe that one of a kind collector pieces with satin finishes get used, go to BUSSE subforum and ask to see pictures of peoples most expensive and favorite users, you'd be pleasantly surprised. Hell they even came out with a custom shop kitchen knife.

So while the tacticool craze is around, there are still options out there, that will serve practical users. And there are options that allow you to buy a beautiful knife. And there are options (not only BUSSE) that will be both a pleasure to look at and practical to use.

There is a lot more I can say, but I think I said more then enough. And I might have even managed to upset somebody, if so, I'm sorry. I tried not to. The main thing to remember there are as many reasons for buying knives as the number of knives bought.

 

[Rick]

to the OP, your statement about buying a Strider(I'm assuming you meant strider from your quote of thier slogan) to make myself feel empowered... is just ignorant.

It was a general observation questioning the popularity of exaggeratedly militarized cutlery, not a dig at one particular company, or at you personally. For every soldier who buys that kind of knife, there're are probably a thousand guys who do so solely for trophy cachet to display next to their favorite watch.

Nothing wrong with that, but as I've said repeatedly, I'm trying to understand the widespread appeal of the intensionally ugly and threatening cutlery trend; a trend that may very well have an ugly and threatening effect on our knife rights. It may be durability, durability, durability for you, but what good is all that durability to the average user---especially when it often comes at the expense of optimal cutting performance---who probably uses such a knife for little more than opening mail or cutting an apple?

I didn't buy a Strider because they look cool, or I saw them in the newest tactical magazine or because they look or make me feel manly.
I bought it because it's a tool, it's a tool that will survive pretty much anything I can put it through. And it's a tool the maker will fix or replace no matter what I do to it.

Culturally speaking, military equipment has always been popular for the same reasons the mil. uses them. Durablity, durablity, and durability.

I would not use an Ed Fowler to chisel through a rock and mortar wall in an Iraqi hut, I would and have used a Strider to do just that very thing.

Thanks. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for when I started the thread.